Fast 41 Mag load questions. ATTN: WESHOOT2, Clark, others that like 'em fast.

[Ben Shepherd]

WARNING: THE FOLLOWING DATA IS ABOVE PUBLISHED MAXIMUMS!!!! Use only in srong guns, and work up slowly.

I've got a combo for my 7.5" 41 redhawk that's got me scratcing my head.

10 shot strings, 65 degrees, overcast.
DATA:
Load 1:
Winchester brass, federal 150 primers, 210XTP, 20.0 grains Vit. N110.
Ave: 1501, ES: 58.32, SD: 24.39

Load 2:
Same as one EXCEPT powder increased to 20.5 grains.
Ave: 1559, ES: 155.9, SD: 58.73.

Load 3:
Powder increased to 21.0 grains
Ave: 1540, ES: 35.48, SD: 11.91.

All load components came from the same containers, all brass was trimmed identically. I observed no phisical high pressure signs in any of the above loads. The velocity increase from load 1 to load 2 was linear with the loads started 2 grains lower. My concern is with the load 2 running erratic(something not happy here), then load 3 actually slows down slightly,which is a pressure sign, BUT: still NO other pressure signs, period. And load 3 will do 1" at 25 yards all day, and is so consistant that I don't want to toss it out.

My prevoius experience with n110 in 357 and 44 magnums was that when you "hit the wall" you hit the wall no question. Yet in this load it seems to have found a happy spot slightly past the normal limit.

What do you think? Am I OK or running dangerous? If you want more details let me know.

Thoughts, input greatly appreciated.

WARNING: The above data is above current published maximums, use at your own risk!!!! For large frame guns only.

 

[griz]

Are those the only 10 round strings of those loads? I'm thinking they may not be representative of the charge level. At any rate, I'm not enough of a gambler to run them that warm. It may not be dangerous, but I wouldn't want to chance it.

 

[Ben Shepherd]

I've ran three 10 round strings, the results were very similar on all of them.

Like I said though, the accuracy on the heaviest load is amazing, if I tip the gun up the cases usually fall out without even touching the ejector rod, primers are flat but no where near "flowing". No case head expansion.

I'm not "way out there crazy stupid stlye" either, hornady lists 19.9 grains as max.

So I'm just wanting some more thoughts on it.

 

[griz]

You're right, that's not pushing it as far as I thought. I didn't know what the "book" max was, I was basing my concern on the fact that the velocity went down whith the last increased charge. The closest I've come to that decision was using a surplus lot of #9 powder. I started with the book load but it was quite slow. I increased the charge to the point that the velocity was close to what was listed and stopped there.

I'll hush up and let some more knowledgeable folks reply. Be careful and good luck.

 

[Ben Shepherd]

Griz, just for your info, one of my manuals lists 19.9 grains max with a velocity of 1300 out of a 7.5" smith, I'm doing 1500 with 20.0. This particular redhawk shoots flat out fast.

 

[Brock]

Ben,

According to VV 2000 reloading guide they list a max of 20.9grs of N110 with the 210 XTP with a velocity of 1562 in a 6" bbl.. If it is shooting that good with no signs of pressure @ 21grs. I would keep shooting it....

Brock

 

[Valkman]

I'd keep shooting that 3rd load also - those are some SWEET numbers!

 

[Ben Shepherd]

My only concern is the drop in velocity between the 2nd and 3rd loads. It burns extremely clean, the accuracy is just crazy, but the drop in velocity concerns me.

All my playing around with heavy 357 and 44 mag loads over the last few years has lead me to expext that with N110 once you get a drop in velocity, you're getting other pressure signs, consistency goes out the window, etc.

This is the first load with n110 that seems to hiccup, then settle down. I've seen it with 2400 a few times but n110 has seemed to "hit the wall" really hard, leaving no question you're done here.

At any rate, this is as fast as this slug needs to go, and the accuacy is there, so I think I'll keep it.

Wonder how fast it'll go in the rifle?

 

[Ben Shepherd]

Brock, thanks for the VV info!! Guess I'm not out there as far as I thought.

I really need to get a Vit manual with all this N110 experimentation I'm doing.

 

[Nathan Detroit]

If I might make a suggestion, look at the actual velocities you got for each round of load #2. The large extreme spread that you flagged could be the culprit. You might be looking at a simple statistical oddity, and it's load #2 that is out of line and not load #3.

If load #2 showed 3 or 4rounds with abnormally high velocities, say something like 50 to 80 fps above the 1560fps average you got, those few rounds would skew your results. If you threw those out, look to see what the average of the remaining rounds would have been.

Let me give you a quick example.

1490
1508
1520
1532
1545
1557

The average for these six values is Avg=1525 and the Sd=24.5

Now add in these four values

1582
1590
1625
1656

The extreme spread is the 156 you reported with a mean of Avg=1560 and an Sd=52.8.

These four hot values boosted the average from 1525 to 1560, an additional 35 fps.

The problem could easily be an excessively erratic load #2 and not a slow load #3.

Detroit

 

[Ben Shepherd]

Nathan, thinks for the imput. But if you caught one of my earlier posts, I had very similar results with 3 different sets of 10 round strings. I have run into the 2 out of the ten run extremely different, when this happens, I run another string and things usually settle down. But three strings in a row? Somethings up here.

BTW: Welcome to THR

 

[Zeus]

I recently took my 41 out for the first time. I bought one of the 41 Ruger Hunters. As I have never owned a 41 before, I was relying on manuals and others references for my first few loads that I was going to try. I have some 265 grain Keith gas checked bullets that I wanted to try. I looked at all of my manuals and couldn't find any info on these kinds of bullets so I went to the web (carefully). I ran across one of Paco Kelly's articles on Heavy bullets in the 41 Magnum. If you any of you know much on his articles, he loads guns hot. So, knowing this, I backed off of his "favorite" load. It consisted of a 270 grain NEI keith bullet and a heavy dose of 296. I loaded 10 rounds at 1 grain under. Didn't want to go too much below because of potential problems with 110/296. Paco listed his load at 1320 out of his Smith with I think a 6" barrel. Out of my 7.5" barrel, I got an average velocity of 1515 fps 10 feet from the muzzle. The primers were slightly flattened but the cases fell out of the cylinder when I turned the gun barrel up. I'm definetely backing off a little to see if I can get a little less flattening. Recoil was a joke, barrel just flipped up but I feel they are a little warm for a 41. I'm not looking for a hot rod as I have others that fit that bill but I figured if I backed if off to a 265 grain hardcast at about 1400 fps, I would have a good deer round for here in MS. Have any of you tried this weight bullet yet and what were your results. I loaded the 210 grain Sierra that I had on the very low end and still achieved 1320 with it. They have a lot more room to be worked with. This gun may just be a little faster than some of the others I've seen. Time will tell when I can get a couple of them out at the same time.

 

[Ben Shepherd]

Zeus, Paco Kellys loads aren't warm, they are flat out, no question HOT! I really haven't played much with anything heavier than 220 in my 41s, cause they're hard to find around here, and I've got a 44 anyway.

Post some load results when you get some time to wring them out.

 

[Zeus]

If you notice, he has a pretty bad habit of loading all of his stuff that way. To each his own. I'm really surprised the old Smith hasn't beat itself loose with those loads. I'll post the results when I get a chance. Sent the gun back to Ruger yesterday because something appears to be wrong with the loading gate. Eating the gate detent springs and allowing the spring to rub the case heads. Hadn't shot or even loaded it until a couple of weeks ago so I just noticed it. Bought the gun in April of 2003 but just never got around to fooling with it yet. When it comes back, I'll give it a good workout and post the results. GS

 

[JOE MACK]

.41Magnum loads

Ben, you're running about right at I shoot the 210gr. at with H110/W296. I'm averaging @1575fps and not really pushing the envelope with the Redhawk. I run all my 250grWFNGC bullets at 1450fps in the 7.5inch Redhawks. I'm just starting to experiment with Lil' Gun and VV. My hard drive crashed not long ago and I'm missing alot of data or I'd give you some information on this load in the Marlin 1894CCL. Keep on with the experiments, but be careful!

 

[Ben Shepherd]

JOE MACK, I suspect you'll find N110 extremely clean, slightly lower speeds than 296/H110, very low muzzle flash. As for the 'lil gun, that stuff can run as fast, in some cases faster than 296/H110 before you get over pressure signs from what I have read.

Like you, I haven't done near as much with 'lil gun as 296, so I'm still leary of pushing too hard too fast.

When you get up and running, post results eh?

 

[tex_n_cal]

I would definitely give Lil'Gun a try, as it has been superb in my .44 Mag.

Years ago I had a 8 & 3/8" M57, and heavy charges of W296 it would send 200 JHP's in the mid-1500's. I never did get it shooting really well, but now I know a lot more than I did back then.

Your Redhawk is stronger than the cases - I would work up carefully until I saw some expansion in the case web, then back off slightly.

On consistency:

1. check cases to make sure length is consistent, otherwise you will get an uneven crimp in the final operation.

2. Take the case mouth expander and have someone turn it down to .405" in diameter, or less. Tight bullet fit = less variation in straight walled magnum pistol cases. A hard crimp is not a substitute for tight bullet fit.

3. Use an aligning style bullet seater, like the Redding Comp seating die, or Hornadys. Crimp as a separate operation, not combined with bullet seating.

4. Make your crimp HARD. The Redding profile crimp is popular with a lot of guys. Dave Scovil of Handloader proved some years ago that tight bullet fit + a hard crimp gave significantly better accuracy and consistency than a hard crimp alone.

Good Luck!

 

[WESHOOT2]

true

A tight case and a hard crimp will normally enhance one's 'reload'.

W296 offers good environmental stability.

Pressure; what, really, is pressure?
It's what bent my 44 redhawk...........


(.....still echoing.....)