FBI Ditches .40 for 9mm

Status
Not open for further replies.
Blacksmoke

Blacksmoke

Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2008
Messages
759
Location
North central New Mexico
You probably have read the FBI, that implacable foe of all enemies of the United States, decided to replace the .40 auto which replaced the 10 mm auto with the 9 mm Parabellum auto. They believe the 9mm with modern and improved ammunition is a better fit for their sometimes limp wristed SAs now recruited from all sectors of society - the women, the metrosexuals, and people of small stature. I guess most of the he-men of the Hoover era with their Model 19 .357s have finally been replaced by Clarisse Starlings and gentler souls who need a milder form of protection.

Sorry if I sound like a grumpy old crank but that is what I am and proud of it, too.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I don't think anyone ever thought the Nazis were limp wristed sissies of small stature just because they used the 9mm Luger.
 
The FBI didn't load those 357 magnum revolvers with actual 357 magnum ammo. They loaded them with 38 Specials. Also, the FBI didn't widely issue 10mms. It was basically a trial run that was cancelled within months.
 
Last edited:
The next logical step for the FBI now is to go from 9mm to 8mm Nambu and continue reducing the size until eventually they get to this and realize it has no stopping power:

0.jpg
 
You're not a grumpy old crank, just biased. And your slant against women or smaller stature agents wasn't needed.

Many people, including myself, shoot 9mm much better than the snappy .40's. That means faster more accurate hits, which are the only shots that actually count. Add in cheaper practice ammo, longer weapon service life, and guns not exploding in the user's hand! I think the FBI made a smart choice.
 
Blacksmoke,

Sounds like some of your preconceived notions have been disproven by members here.

I suggest now that you apply to the FBI and go up against some of the women and "metrosexuals" (?) you disparage, either in hand to hand or in firearms class, and see how you do.

Send us a postcard.

ACP
 
Blacksmoke said:
You probably have read the FBI, that implacable foe of all enemies of the United States, decided to replace the .40 auto which replaced the 10 mm auto with the 9 mm Parabellum auto. They believe the 9mm with modern and improved ammunition is a better fit for their sometimes limp wristed SAs now recruited from all sectors of society- the women, the metrosexuals, and people of small stature. I guess most of the he-men of the Hoover era with their Model 19 .357s have finally been replaced by Clarisse Starlings and gentler souls who need a milder form of protection.

Sorry if I sound like a grumpy old crank but that is what I am and proud of it, too.
Click to expand...
Actually alot of what you say is true.

Once a FBI female agent sued the FBI cause the S&W 13 .357 was to 'big' a grip for her and they settlement allowing her to pack a Colt Detective Special.

Now the HRT team still packs what they want, but the line agent, at least new ones, will be issued a 9mm.

Honestly it's a cost issue to them. If the JHPs are so good, well then a .40 or .45 JHP would be even better as their so-called protocols call for adequate penetration and then wound size (as in diameter of the bullet) and we all know a .45 is what a 9mm wishes it could be as for size.....

Deaf
 
Last edited by a moderator:
As a former commissioned Peace Officer, I would welcome the challenge. Back in my day, SA applicants were required to have either a Law degree or an Accounting degree. Mr. Hoover was quite specific about that. So, I never applied.

My one time working with FBI SAs was in the early 1970s escorting them to pick up ransom money for an airline highjacking. Those four SAs were guys I would not want to tangle with. Over the years since I have encountered a few more and noted the difference in personnel standards.

My comments stand. If you have a problem with that I am sure you will be able to deal with it. Perhaps I should have added that IMO the 9mm Parabellum is not suited for dealing with many of the criminal suspects encountered in this country- large males sometimes armored. For example, I was present during the Bank of America caper in Los Angeles in the early 1990s. I witnessed how effective the LAPD issued 9MM Beretta was.

As for the WWII Wehrmacht, please consider the times. The British Army side arm was the .38 S&W revolver. The stature of the average German and European was smaller than many of the criminal suspects encountered in this country today. If you want to face a violent 300 pound offender high on methamphetamine with a 9mm handgun, I hope your aim is true and you have sufficient time. Please remember two FBI SA died when their 9s failed to penetrate and disable their assailants. While this return to the 9mm is based upon improved ammunition design, it does not fill me with the confidence afforded by a .357 Sig, or 10mm or .45 ACP.
 
Last edited:
OH NO !! not the 9mm death ray speech again :banghead:
there is a running thread on this a few thread down with like over 150 posts on
it :what:
 
For example, I was present during the Bank of America caper in Los Angeles in the early 1990s. I witnessed how effective the LAPD issued 9MM Beretta was.
Click to expand...

And some other handgun caliber would have knocked them out of their socks?
 
Not quite accurate

DEAFSMITH,

You are not quite accurate on that lawsuit, you quoted. According to Mas AYOOB, the facts were different.

The FBI REQUIRED ALL RECRUITS TO QUALIFY WITH A S&W K-frame revolver, probably a model 10. Once in the field, agents could carry as S&W model 10 or a smaller COLT D frame 6 shot .38 Special like the Detective Special or even a 5 shot S&W J frame.

The agents who sued claimed that if they were allowed to use a smaller framed gun WITH A SMALLER GRIP, they would have qualified the same course. They were not asking for special treatment, just to be fairly judged.

The FBI lost the case because it could not justify to the judge why the agents had to qualify with a gun that was to big for the trainees to shot properly, but could qualify if they used a gun that the FBI approved for street use.

When I joined the Federal government, a prevailing belief in my agency among management was. "well we have done it this way for the past 100 years, so if you don't like it, get out". That probably had something to do with our annual employee turnover rate of about 33%.

Jim
 
Didn't we already cover this ???

As much as this has already been hashed out :banghead: in an earlier thread....

I've studied the BoA robbery as well as the Miami Platt/Matix shootout and drawn several conclusions regarding caliber and the LEO's choice of arms. In both cases, the perps would have been quickly dispatched if an officer had gone prone, resting his pistol on the curb to make a clean head shot. Either scenario, 9mm or 158gr .38spl would have done the job fine if used aforementioned tactic.

Ideally the agent or officer going into a hot situation has what the bad guys had in both cases: a carbine, not a pistol. Mini-14 & AR15 carbines would have helped (DID help in LA) the situation greatly. With modern projectiles the 9mm is more than effective as a sidearm. Only military guys who are stuck using hardball ammo benefit from lugging around a .45ACP.
 
Blacksmoke said:
You probably have read the FBI, that implacable foe of all enemies of the United States, decided to replace the .40 auto which replaced the 10 mm auto with the 9 mm Parabellum auto. They believe the 9mm with modern and improved ammunition is a better fit for their sometimes limp wristed SAs now recruited from all sectors of society-the women, the metrosexuals, and people of small stature. I guess most of the he-men of the Hoover era with their Model 19 .357s have finally been replaced by Clarisse Starlings and gentler souls who need a milder form of protection.



Sorry if I sound like a grumpy old crank but that is what I am and proud of it, too.
Click to expand...


C3BED7F3-52C7-4B3F-B076-7D934A335311.jpg


See that monster there on the right side? That's me. I could probably tear many men in half and toss them to the side. I like the 9mm. I don't fell small in stature, nor weak, or limp wristed because I like a 9mm. Maybe I'm wrong and you are right………but I doubt it.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I used to be a .4 and above caliber guy. My first two carry guns were a .40 G-27 and a .45 ACP Government 1911. I loved the .45 ACP but hated the price per box that has occurred over time. I shot it less and less. Eventually I ended up selling it. I now carry a G-19 and single stack 9mm (not at the same time). I can shoot them well enough to hold decent groups at self-defense distances and they are lighter in weight than the 1911 at least with less recoil than both of the former. Rounds on target are what counts and practice makes better!
 
Ive seen a number of comments elsewhere from long time LEO's that are neither wimpy nor small statured and like and use 9mm's. The common denominator seems to be that they shoot better, as in better scores and faster times, and arent too stuck in tradition or pointless prejudices to make logical choices. There also seems to be some pretty solid longer term street results of 9's making consistent stops when used well. One mentioned an average of 4 shots per engagement with 100% hits within his department I believe. Relying on 30 year old or more tired stories isnt making logical choices in what works today.

Like bigger bullets? Great! I do too for many uses, the 4" Smith 29 being one of my all time favorites. 9's also have their place and uses.
 
Last edited:
Please remember two FBI SA died when their 9s failed to penetrate and disable their assailants.
Click to expand...

The bullet that a coroner determined to be the primary cause of Michael Platt's death in the 1986 Miami shootout - was the 9mm Silvertip fired by agent Jerry Dove.

Yes, the much-maligned 9mm Silvertip, created a wound in Michael Lee Platt that the coroner determined Platt wouldn't have survived even if he'd received immediate medical attention.

The issue was not the caliber. If Jerry Dove had been shooting FMJ Michael Platt would have died instantly.

The issue with the 9mm round in the 1986 Miami Shootout was not a failure of the bullet or a failed bullet design. The issue was that of proper requirements.

The Winchester Silvertip performed the way it was designed, the primary requirement that it was supposed to meet was to not over-penetrate, and the Silvertip didn't over-penetrate.

The main failure in that situation is that the agents were equipped with a bullet designed primarily not to over penetrate when they needed bullets which met the criteria of penetrating to 12" - 14" through various barriers (criteria the FBI later developed).
 
I use an S&W 9mm M&P Shield for a carry gun. I have confidence in the Hornady Critical Defense 115g hollow points that I load it with. I love shooting my 45ACP Springfield Range Officer but would not want to carry it IWB all day. The articles I have read recently (last year or so) all say the 9mm is effective with proper shot placement and good ammunition.
 
Blacksmoke, I don't come here for bigotry and misogyny masquerading as gun talk. I'd appreciate it if you did that somewhere else. God knows there are enough places on the Internet for it.
 
i like the 9mm.. but anyway, i said this on another thread, maybe a different forum but i will say it again.. with each handgun design (or any firearm design) theres a limitation as to what they can handle.. in most weapons this limitation is the bolt thrust which is basically the surface area of the inside of the base of the cartridge multiplied by the pounds per square inch produced by the ignition

the 40S&W and 9mm standard pressures generally are about the same, with the .40 having a larger base diameter it means its going to have a greater amount of thrust, meaning it will be more abusive to the frame, slide, slide stop, etc.. so if left at standard pressures the 9mm chambering in the same pistol will generally be less taxing on the weapon itself.. however, this also means you can push the 9mm at much higher pressures than the 40S&W without increasing the bolt thrust beyond what the .40 puts out... im talking +P and +P+ stuff that if loaded the .40 to those pressures would probably wreck your weapon in a relatively short amount of time.. figure with roughly the same inside case diameter, a +P and +P+ 40S&W is putting out MORE bolt thrust than a 10mm

so with newer pistols focusing on being able to handle the increasing pressures of hotter 9mm loads, we're able to push 9mm so hot that it can actually match, or at least come VERY close to what the .40S&W and .45ACP put out without adding more stress to the weapon than these other cartridges... take that into consideration plus the higher magazine count, faster follow up shots, the 9mm is by no means no slouch and anyone who believes it is is quite simply VERY misinformed
 
On the average in the real world, shot placement trumps caliber/cartridge.

Within reason of course ie. don't compare .25 ACP to .44 magnum.
 
So a gun loaded with 16-18 rounds of 124 gr 9mm bullets leaving the muzzle at 1250-1300 fps is a downgrade from a 6 shot 357 mag revolver shooting 125 gr bullets at 1250-1300 fps :confused:

I guess 1 gr of bullet weight and .002" greater bullet diameter really matters even if you have 10-12 fewer rounds and less recoil.
 
At the risk of sounding like a grumpy old man and risking thread drift I would like to comment.

  • We never miss an opportunity around here for some 45 chest thumping do we?
  • Caliber war threads would be a lot shorter if we could just click a thumbs up/thumbs down button.
  • I’ve made my own decision about what I am comfortable carrying and don’t give two (not to or too) hoots about what some law enforcement agency is carrying. An unlikely chain of events would have to occur before I felt compelled to duplicate what local law enforcement/local military/local peace keeping occupiers are carrying.
  • There is an edit button at your disposal. You really should read over your posts and replies before and after you hit the Submit Thread Button, especially late at night it seems. And no, I’m not being the Grammar Monitor but missing words or additional words do make it hard to follow the meaning of sentences.
  • Modern crimes call for a wide range of skills within law enforcement agencies. Not everyone possessing those skills and wanting to work for a law enforcement agency is a 280 pound former special operations door kicker with a sleeve of tattoos and wraparound sunglasses. I’ve had several female massage therapists over the years weighing in at under 110 pounds dripping wet that could put you on the ground in agony with two fingers. Technique often trumps brute force.
  • Carrying a gun capable of making bigger holes invariably comes with the trade-off of fewer rounds. That is why we call it the Caliber vs Capacity debate. Either choice is a compromise. Some grumpy old men might be uncomfortable realizing their choice constitutes a compromise but that’s what it is, a compromise, regardless of the choice
.

I think that will do for now.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top