Federal agents hunt for guns, one house at a time

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Look at the numbers posted above, suposedly from the BATF. (http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pu...n_internet.pdf) Then look at this quote from the article in the opening post:

All told, Mexican officials in 2008 asked federal agents to trace the origins of more than 7,500 firearms recovered at crime scenes in Mexico. Most of them were traced back to Texas, California and Arizona.

Somehow I don't see how they can jibe. Something here is way out of line.
 
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And to add to the confusion we have this. Isn't it interesting that somehow the various numbers provided by the BATF or Mexican authorities never seem to agree from one day to the next. :uhoh: :confused:

AP IMPACT: Mexico's weapons cache stymies tracing

By E. EDUARDO CASTILLO and MICHELLE ROBERTS (Associated Press Writers)
From Associated Press
May 06, 2009 1:57 PM EDT

MEXICO CITY - Deep inside a heavily guarded military warehouse, the evidence of Mexico's war on drug cartels is stacked two stories high: tens of thousands of seized weapons, from handguns and rifles to AK-47s, some with gun sights carved into the shape of a rooster or a horse's head.

The vault nestled in a Mexican military base is the government's largest stash of weapons - some 88,537 of them - seized from brutal drug gangs. The Associated Press was recently given rare and exclusive access to the secure facility.

The sheer size of the cache attests to the seemingly hopeless task of ever sorting and tracing the guns, possibly to trafficking rings that deliver weapons to Mexico. And security designed to keep the guns from getting back on the streets is so tight that even investigators have trouble getting the access they need.

The warehouse - on a main drag in northeastern Mexico City near the horse racing track - is surrounded by five rings of security. There are two military guards at the door and five more are in the lobby. Inside, another 10 soldiers sort, clean and catalog weapons. Some are dismantled and destroyed, a few assigned to the Mexican military.

The guns are stacked to the two-story ceiling in a warehouse the size of a small Wal-Mart. The rifles lie on 22 metal racks; the pistols hang from metal poles by their triggers.

The cavernous warehouse is impeccably clean, the only smell coming from the coffee the soldiers prepared for their rare visitors. The clash of metal and sounds of the soldiers at work echo off the walls.

The security, bolstered by closed-circuit cameras and motion detectors, makes the warehouse practically impenetrable, said Gen. Antonio Erasto Monsivais, who oversees the armory.

In all, the military has 305,424 confiscated weapons locked in vaults, just a fraction of those used by criminals in Mexico, where an offensive by drug cartels against the military has killed more than 10,750 people since December 2006. But each weapon is a clue to how the cartels are getting arms, and possibly to the traffickers that brought them here.

The U.S. has acknowledged that many of the rifles, handguns and ammunition used by the cartels come from its side of the border. Mexican gun laws are strict, especially compared to those in most U.S. border states.

The Mexican government has handed over information to U.S. authorities to trace 12,073 weapons seized in 2008 crimes - particularly on guns from large seizures or notorious crimes.

But the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, which handles the U.S. investigations, is at the mercy of local Mexican police for the amount and quality of the information.

"Many of these rural municipalities that may come into a gun seizure ... may not even know anything about tracing guns," ATF spokesman Thomas Mangan said.

A police officer in Mexico submits a description, serial number and distinctive markings of the gun. The weapons are then turned over to the military for storage in one of a dozen armories such as the one in Mexico City.

When U.S. investigators need additional details, as they often do, the request goes back to the original police officer, who must retrieve the gun from a military vault - sometimes hundreds of miles away.

Mexican police must ask permission each time they need to look at a stored gun, Monsivais said. Even if that permission is granted, the investigator cannot go past the metal fencing separating a reception desk and the shelves holding the guns. A soldier has to bring out the requested weapons.

The security, language differences and bureaucracy add up to a painstaking process, said J. Dewey Webb, special agent in charge of the ATF's Houston Field Division.

"The military does a very good job when the weapons come into their custody of securing them," he told the AP. "Because of the systems in Mexico, it's very difficult for us to get in."

Webb said recent talks between the two countries were beginning to ease access, but also noted other problems.

Many mistakes are made because of difficulty translating technical terms about firearms, Webb said. A Spanish-language version of eTrace, the Web-based method of submitting tracing information, won't be available until next year.

About a third of the guns submitted for tracing in 2007 were sold by licensed U.S. dealers.

U.S. agents need the information to track the gun back to the manufacturer and determine when it was made and what wholesaler it was shipped to, ATF spokeswoman Franceska Perot said. Agents follow the gun to the local licensed dealer who sold it and determine the buyer.

ATF offices around the U.S. are swamped with tracing requests, trying to determine who actually bought the weapons and whether they were part of a firearms trafficking scheme. The ATF has sent an extra 100 agents to Houston to help unclog the 700-weapon backlog as part of its Project Gunrunner.

The seized weapons are kept in the vaults as long as they are needed as evidence, Monsivais said. Most have been there for years, an indication of how slow criminal investigations proceed and how few crimes are ever solved.
Indeed, the ATF gave the AP data showing the average "time to crime" - the time between when a gun was sold and when it was seized in a crime - is 14 years.

That's an average of four years longer than guns in American crimes, the ATF said. The older the street age, the harder it can be to track how the gun wound up at a crime scene.

When the criminal investigations are complete, most of the weapons are destroyed and melted down. Some of the more powerful arms, such as M16 machine guns and sniper rifles, are added to the military's own arsenal. Showpieces are destined for museums.

Most of the guns traced were originally sold by U.S. dealers in border states, with more than half purchased in Texas. Not only does Texas have the most gun dealers of any state, it makes up 1,200 miles of the 2,100-mile U.S.-Mexico border, with many of the established drug and trafficking routes.
Details on the 2008 tracing requests are not yet available.

It's less clear how cartels are getting military-grade weapons. Amid the shelves of pistols and rifles, there is a 9 mm grenade launcher and a portable shoulder-fired anti-tank rocket launcher.

Such military-grade weaponry represents a tiny fraction of the seized weapons. But Monsivais said he's most worried about the rising caliber of assault rifles and semi-automatic guns that have been found.

"There are weapons that have a lot of firepower and great penetration, like the .50-caliber Barrett ... which can penetrate armored vehicles, body armor, and that normally only militaries use," Monsivais said.

Thirty percent of AK-47 assault rifles seized have been modified to become fully automatic. He said about three of every 1,000 AR-15 assault rifles have been modified to take .50-caliber bullets, the kind of high-powered ammunition designed for sniper rifles.

"In my experience, I had never seen a modified AR-15 rifle," Monsivais said. "It's something new, and it is to a certain extent worrisome that they can have and use this type of weapon."
---
Roberts reported from San Antonio. Associated Press writers Alexandra Olson in Mexico City and Juan A. Lozano in Houston contributed to this story.

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http://my.earthlink.net/article/int?guid=20090506/4a010b40_3ca6_1552620090506609271651

You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can't fool ALL of the people ALL of the time.

But this doesn't mean they won't try... :mad:
 
interesting article. i personally have no problem with ATF enforcing existing laws in the books that they should be enforcing all along.

from the news story:

All told, Mexican officials in 2008 asked federal agents to trace the origins of more than 7,500 firearms recovered at crime scenes in Mexico. Most of them were traced back to Texas, California and Arizona.

Among other things, the agents are combing neighborhoods and asking people about suspicious purchases as well as seeking explanations as to how their guns ended up used in murders, kidnappings and other crimes in Mexico.

someone asked why the ATF is doing the work for the Mexican government. there are two reasons i can think of. (1) exporting firearms across the border violates US laws if the State Department did not authorize it, making it a federal violation, and (2) Mexican officials have no legal standing to investigate anything in the US. the US has an interest in enforcing its own firearms exportation laws, doesnt it?

the news story infers that this is not a random selection. so you ask, where does ATF get the names and addresses of people they're looking to talk to? my guess is Multiple Sale forms that FFL's are required by law to submit. two or more handguns within five business days from the same dealer generates this report. and then i suppose they look at the sheet and see what was purchased. if the person bought two Five-Seven pistols or two .38 Super Colts then that may be enough for ATF to go do a knock-and-talk to see if the original purchaser still has them. the FFL has until the end of business that day to send out the Multiple Sale form. that means the ATF and home jurisdiction agency (say the sale occurred in Houston, Texas, so Houston PD or Harris County Sheriff's Office gets a copy too) will get a copy of this form within days. so if the sale took place say on a Saturday and within a week or two the ATF comes to check and see if the original purchaser still has the pistol(s), then perhaps this may be a big red flag if the pistol is no longer in the possession of the original purchaser.

multiply this a few times, where the original purchaser's name shows up repeatedly and buying alot of the same pistol, and you have yourself a clue. especially if these people don't have the pistols in their possession anymore, that means that is a bigger clue. not enough to make an arrest, but then compound that to possibly one of these pistols ending up south of the border. another clue....you see how the investigation continues.

if you still have the pistol(s) and ATF asks you if you have them, i just don't see the logical reason to tell them to go fly a kite and slam the door on them. they will probably assume that you don't have the pistol(s) anymore and your name goes into a file. now that in and of itself may not mean anything, so long as you're legit and you know that your guns will never turn up in Mexico because you have them, so no big deal. but if your name ever comes up again, you bet your bottom dollar they are going to pay more scrutiny to you.

i can see how people can say the ATF is being a bunch of JBT's coming up and asking to see a firearm, but really, they are working within the confines of the law. the law allows them to do a knock-and-talk on your house and you have the right to tell them that you aren't going to cooperate.

but i wouldn't want to bring any undue scrutiny upon myself simple due to the principle of not wanting to cooperate with ATF, simply because you don't want to.

if ATF is out to make cases on crooks then i have no problem with it. crooks who use guns against the good guys make the good guys with guns look like crooks.
 
can see how people can say the ATF is being a bunch of JBT's coming up and asking to see a firearm, but really, they are working within the confines of the law. the law allows them to do a knock-and-talk on your house and you have the right to tell them that you aren't going to cooperate.

but i wouldn't want to bring any undue scrutiny upon myself simple due to the principle of not wanting to cooperate with ATF, simply because you don't want to.

In most cases you are probably right, but I would still be careful about giving them information.

If by chance it happened to me I would consider meeting them at my lawyers office to let them inspect the firearms in question, that's about as far as I would go.

I am sure in most cases it truly would hurt nothing to go ahead and show the guns to them in your living room but I've never seen a single lawyer ever recommend talking to LE without the lawyer present, and I don't see any reason to start second guessing lawyers at this point.

Might cost me a couple hundred bucks sure.... cheap insurance.
 
The problem is not that they want to enforce straw purchase laws. The problem is that all it takes for you to become a suspect in such investigations is the purchase of more than one handgun within a 5-day period.
 
No, I didn't read all the posts. This is one of many threads on this subject that've been locked already today. . . .

So, why are you so hot to get this thread locked?

Does it somehowmake your life worse if we discuss this?

Or are you just playing wannabe mod?
 
Rockwell1 said:
nalioth said:
No, I didn't read all the posts. This is one of many threads on this subject that've been locked already today. . . .
So, why are you so hot to get this thread locked?

Does it somehowmake your life worse if we discuss this?

Or are you just playing wannabe mod?
Doesn't bother me a bit what is talked about. This isn't news (it was first reported by one of our own a month ago), anyway.

Can't say the same for the mods, and my post was just a warning to folks here to expect the ol' "lock".
 
This isn't news (it was first reported by one of our own a month ago), anyway.

It's news in that the article posted by the OP recounts a little bit different version of the story, along with a reporter on the scene to record their words and actions.

That and it is the first sort of "public" admission that this stuff is happening.

The ATF recently dispatched 100 veteran agents to its Houston division, which reaches to the border.

And the tactics they seem to favor:

“An angry ex-girlfriend or wife is the best person in the world, the greatest source of information,” Sloan said.

So yeah, it's more of the same but it's confirmation by an outside source and it gives some view into the scope of the operation.

100 agents is a lot of taxpayer money being spent in Houston.
 
TexasRifleman said:
That and it is the first sort of "public" admission that this stuff is happening.

The NRA ran a news story on this a couple of weeks ago (or did you mean "public" = "government sources"?).
 
This is a massive fishing operation by the BATFE, and they will spin the results in whatever way will justify a bigger budget and a greater erosion of our constitutional rights.

If they find no evidence of large numbers of straw purchases, they will say they need more agents and more restrictive laws to dig deeper to stop drug violence in Mexico.

However, if they do find evidence of large number of straw purchases, they will say it is proof that U.S. gun laws are too lax and that they need more restrictive laws and more agents to stop drug violence in Mexico.

It is a win-win situation for the agency that brought you Waco and Ruby Ridge.
 
The NRA ran a news story on this a couple of weeks ago (or did you mean "public" = "government sources"?).

Certainly. NRA, us, other pro 2A groups can claim it but until this the ATF itself had not specifically come out and said what they were doing and what the scope of the operation was.

I'd say that's something new.
 
Once again we are distracted by lesser issues. Yes, people who illegally contribute to trafficking of weapons should be dealt with. After all, we keep arguing that the feds should enforce laws already on the books. They are doing that, fine. But shouldn't the focus be on the trash pulling the triggers? People are obsessed with placing the blame everywhere but where it belongs. It matters less where you got the gun. If you have conscienceless vermin loose in your country running drugs and killing people, the focus should be on your pest infestation not the tools they use.
 
I agree with you Colt Smith, the cops and courts need to put the thugs away, and stop the revolving door justice system.
 
The red flag is sent from 2 handguns within 5 days, regardless of how unfair or wrong people think it is, anyone could easily stay off that list. Just don't buy 2 handguns within 5 days. Its REALLY simple.
 
The red flag is sent from 2 handguns within 5 days, regardless of how unfair or wrong people think it is, anyone could easily stay off that list. Just don't buy 2 handguns within 5 days. Its REALLY simple.

Or the F troop could investigate actual crimes as opposed to perfectly legal firearms purchases
 
"Or the F troop could investigate actual crimes as opposed to perfectly legal firearms purchases"

It doesn't matter because they wont stop.

What if they came across a person that bought 2 handguns in one day, but every few weeks and sold them to some bad Mexicans? That would be a great person for them to arrest.

If you don't want to look suspicious then don't put up a red flag.
 
Birdmang
I don't think you have really thought out the logic of your position. A line must be drawn somewhere. There are those who would happily change the law so that a red flag goes up for anyone who buys 2 guns in a lifetime.
 
Once again we are distracted by lesser issues. Yes, people who illegally contribute to trafficking of weapons should be dealt with. After all, we keep arguing that the feds should enforce laws already on the books. They are doing that, fine. But shouldn't the focus be on the trash pulling the triggers? People are obsessed with placing the blame everywhere but where it belongs. It matters less where you got the gun. If you have conscienceless vermin loose in your country running drugs and killing people, the focus should be on your pest infestation not the tools they use.

Very well said.

I also agree that it is ATF's job and mission to enforce laws regarding buying and selling firearms. That is their job.

I also agree that far stiffer penalties regarding even illegal possession of a firearm would be far more cost effective. If criminals knew they would face twenty hard years if they were caught even carrying a gun, most of them would start carrying knives. :p
 
My logic is this: If you don't want the ATF on your back, or should I say doorstep, then don't buy 2 pistols within a week.

If I purchased 2 pistols today and the ATF showed up at my door next week asking about them, I would gladly show them my receipts, the pistols with matching numbers to the receipts, and everything about how I legally purchased them for personal use. When the truth is on your side then you have nothing to hide. Granted I don't live anywhere near the Mexico border, I couldn't see this happening.

I don't understand the problem with cooperating when nothing is at stake.
 
My logic is this: If you don't want the ATF on your back, or should I say doorstep, then don't buy 2 pistols within a week.

Or you could just reffer them to your lawyer

I would gladly show them my receipts, the pistols with matching numbers to the receipts, and everything about how I legally purchased them for personal use. When the truth is on your side then you have nothing to hide. Granted I don't live anywhere near the Mexico border, I couldn't see this happening.

Please read my sigline. It's a quote from an associate justice of the SCOTUS

I don't understand the problem with cooperating when nothing is at stake.

Any time you are beeing investigated by a law enforcement agent of any type your freedom is at stake
 
If you don't want to look suspicious then don't put up a red flag.

What's a red flag? And who decides?

A few weeks ago we had the Department of Homeland Security basically saying ALL gun owners are red flags.

You selling all your guns this week?
 
Maybe growing up in Illinois I have lived with my freedoms infringed upon and am used to it, but I have no problems with cooperating with law enforcement of any kind.

Your freedom will only be at stake if you are hiding something.
 
This is a repost of something I said in the last thread that still holds true
I think I said this in the last thread but, this is one of those things you either get or you don’t. If you don’t the only thing that’s really going to change your mind is a bad run in with a law enforcement agency, unfortunately you may not get a chance to put your new found perspective into action after said run in.

The very fact that the agents showed up on his front stoop questioning the OP about the guns shows that they (at least on some level) suspected him of having committed a crime.
I want to say the OP would be a fool to answer any questions under such circumstances but the only people that are going to “get it’ already “get it”

There’s no such thing a “routine” questioning although, there may be if we continue to allow it.

Bottom line, if Dr. James Duane and Chief Justice Robert Jackson of the Supreme Court can’t convince you, nothing on this forum will either
 
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