Federal court rules against arbitrary suspension of habeas corpus

Status
Not open for further replies.
Because if Padilla never got a trial, it is tough to explain how he was standing before the Second Circuit Court of Appeals about 18 months after he was arrested (which isn't an unusual length of time for a criminal appeal) or how he was standing before the Supreme Court in less than two years.

If by recently you mean 2003, then I guess so. Padilla was arrested May 8, 2002 and by December 18, 2003 the Second Circuit Court of Appeals had issued a ruling in his case - that isn't exactly a glacial response in our criminal justice system, especially when the executive was actively trying to delay the trial. By February 20, 2004, Padilla's case was before the Supreme Court who remanded on procedural grounds.


You appear to be obfuscating the issue. Your first statement clearly identifies Padilla's process as a 'trial' in response to statements about being held without going to trial (ie indictment and criminal proceedings). The rest of your statements pertain to Padilla's various legal appeals specifically regarding his being held without charges or indictment.

If one is charged in 2002, proceeds to trial and has appealed to the Supreme Court within two years, that is an exceptionally speedy process.

That is not the Padilla situation. Padilla's petition for a writ of habeas corpus reached the Supreme Court within two years. That is an exceptionally long time for a habeas hearing.

Padilla was only indicted in 2005.

Can you find any pre-PATRIOT/pre-Bush examples of American citizens being held without charges for three years?
 
Did you even read the Wikipedia link?

Yes, and there isn't anything there that shocked me, or that hasn't happened numerous times over the last 20 years. The idea that all of a sudden because of the PA our government turned from a bunch of people with their hands tied to a giant free for all with no oversight is simply incorrect.

The very fact that most of what was in that wiki article was denied and or stopped mid-stream is evidence that the system still does what its designed to do.

As far as the FBI requesting info on people, thats also irrelevant. The government is free to ask for info as much as they wish. There isn't anything illegal about that. Nor is it wrong to use things within the PA (assuming they don't violate the law) for crimes other then terrorism. If the FBI can get creative then good for them. As long as they don't break the law I don't have a beef.

Again folks, to think that the PA created this zeal on the part of law enforcement to press its limits is totally naive and just wrong. Its been this way for decades, probably longer.


So I guess the government doesn't even need to charge you with anything to lock you up anymore? Well we don't really have any evidence or enough for a conviction. So why give anyone a trial? Lets just lock them up and throw away the key! As much as people are willing to sacrifice freedoms to fight terrorism, don't kid yourself. Its the government that is terrorizing people. Who's to say that ten years from now they won't be able to hold you without trial for a crime of violence? This is a very dangerous and slippery slope

:rolleyes:Slippery slope for sure, except for the fact that none of what you wrote applies to US citizens. Small yet important detail.


Here's the quick and dirty guide to not ending up in a secret prison or be detained indefinately.
1) become a US citizen, or
2) don't plot to commit acts of terror against the US, or its armed forces

Preferably both. Its really that simple folks.
 
Stage2- Maybe you should refrain from commenting until you either read the act or some of the actions and supreme court rulings (from the people who were obviously NOT complaining about their rights being violated). Otherwise you are spreading misinformation and making yourself look foolish.
 
Foolish my arse. People who get all wound up about the PA talk about the "police state" and jack booted thugs locking up people and throwing away the key. Thats simply nonsense. The government hasn't done anything post PA that it didn't do pre-PA.

I have my own issues with this legislation, but the hoards of people who run around here with their arms flailing screaming, "the black helos are coming the black helos are coming" all because the PA was signed into law just dont deal with the facts.

Need I remind you that the single posterboy for everything bad about the PA, Jose Padilla (or Abdullah al-Muhajir as he prefers to be called) was arrested at O'Hare International Airport after an overseas trip to Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Iraq, carrying $10,526, a cell phone and e-mail addresses for al-Qaida operatives.

Now as a US citizen he should have had his speedy trial. Personally I would have liked to have seen him charged with treason and hung within the week.

All that aside however, if this is the type of person having his "rights" violated by the PA, I think we're headed in the right direction.
 
Hanged for treason for carrying cash? for having a cell phone? For having e-mail addresses?
Why? None of those things are a crime.
I have a cell phone, and I have many e-mail addresses. Should I be hanged too?

Jefferson
 
Slippery slope for sure, except for the fact that none of what you wrote applies to US citizens. Small yet important detail.
The Bush administration has detained US citizens, deeming them "enemy combatants," per the MCA. José Padilla was one. You're using the fact that they seem not to be getting away with it as exoneration for attempting the crime in the first place.

--Len.
 
Need I remind you that the single posterboy for everything bad about the PA, Jose Padilla (or Abdullah al-Muhajir as he prefers to be called) was arrested at O'Hare International Airport after an overseas trip to Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Iraq, carrying $10,526, a cell phone and e-mail addresses for al-Qaida operatives.

Now as a US citizen he should have had his speedy trial. Personally I would have liked to have seen him charged with treason and hung within the week.

All that aside however, if this is the type of person having his "rights" violated by the PA, I think we're headed in the right direction.

So it's okay to violate a citizen's Constitutional rights just because he is suspected of being a terrorist? How could one tell, if he is not granted the right to a trial? Is that heading in the right direction, as you put it? You put the word "rights" in quotation marks. Are you insinuating that Jose Padilla Doesn't have constitutional rights?
 
All that aside however, if this is the type of person having his "rights" violated by the PA, I think we're headed in the right direction.

Ah man, then likes of you are destroying this country. Sad.
 
Hanged for treason for carrying cash? for having a cell phone? For having e-mail addresses?
Why? None of those things are a crime.
I have a cell phone, and I have many e-mail addresses. Should I be hanged too?

Jefferson

This kind of statement is the same thing you'd hear from a crook. "No officer I was just going to the store for some milk at 3am and I saw this broken car window and took the wallet to return it to the owner. Give me a break.

And just for the record, anyone travelling with a cash amount greater then 10k is required to report it. So yes he did violate the law.


The Bush administration has detained US citizens, deeming them "enemy combatants," per the MCA. José Padilla was one. You're using the fact that they seem not to be getting away with it as exoneration for attempting the crime in the first place.

First, the MCA doesn't affect habeas rights for US citizens. Deeming them enemy combatants has no bearing on their rights and the government can deem than anything they wish.

Secondly, besides Padilla, what US citizen has been detained indefinately without trial or access to the courts.


So it's okay to violate a citizen's Constitutional rights just because he is suspected of being a terrorist? How could one tell, if he is not granted the right to a trial? Is that heading in the right direction, as you put it? You put the word "rights" in quotation marks. Are you insinuating that Jose Padilla Doesn't have constitutional rights?

stage2 said:
Now as a US citizen he should have had his speedy trial.

You folks don't read do you.


Stage2- Your post just proved everything I said. At least you have your full neocon status restored.

Proved what, that I want to see the guy working for al quaeda smoked? That I'm a little old fashioned in that I still think there is right and wrong and I'm sick of all the red tape that these guys are going to dance through.

It amazes me what a difference some time can make. If a guy was caught at the airport in 1943 with a bunch of money, names of german contacts and had just returned from berlin you couldn't get him to the firing squad fast enough. It would make a squat of difference if he was Joe from Topeka. He would have a 10 minute trial and that would be that, and no one here would complain because he was a dirty treasonous spy.

For some reason this no longer applies today, and thats why we won't win. I'm almost thankful that my grandad is no longer around to see what we have become.
 
First, the MCA doesn't affect habeas rights for US citizens.
It denies habeas corpus to anyone designated an "enemy combatant," and makes no exception for US citizens.

Proved what, that I want to see the guy accused of working for al quaeda smoked without a trial?
Fixed up yer typo for ya. Bad news, though: I accuse you of working for Al Qaeda. Please report promptly to the nearest police barracks for your execution.

--Len.
 
Because if you have that much in liquid assets you obviously must be dodging taxes.

Jefferson
 
In a "free" country, I should be able to push a wheelbarrow full of cash around w/o having to justify it to my betters.
So much for living in a "free" country.
 
It denies habeas corpus to anyone designated an "enemy combatant," and makes no exception for US citizens.

Then you clearly haven't read the act. It denies habeas to ALIEN enemy combatants. Its specifically goes to the trouble of explaining that only non-citizens can have their habeas rights suspended.


Fixed up yer typo for ya. Bad news, though: I accuse you of working for Al Qaeda. Please report promptly to the nearest police barracks for your execution.

Well, if I just came back from the greatest hits of the mid east tour with a barrel full of cash, a cell phone not in my name and a list of al quaeda operatives I'm probably not the good humor man.

I never said don't give him a trial. What I said was give him the quick and dirty version.

Does anyone here honestly think that Padilla was just in the wrong place at the wrong time?

Seriously.
 
This isn't the point...

Does anyone here honestly think that Padilla was just in the wrong place at the wrong time?

Not in any way is it the point. The point here is not what Mr Padilla did or didn't do (which neither you nor I know for sure.) The point is that the Executive branch has claimed the power to decide, without any legal process, that person X is an "enemy combatant", and on that determination alone, to imprison person X for as long as they see fit, without ever going through any process to determine, based on the facts, whether or not person X is a danger to society, or has committed any crime.

If you trust George Bush to use that power only for good, when he is certain that person X is, in fact, a terrorist, then I admire your faith in the man, but even that isn't good enough. Because, if not completely eliminated, as the Constitution demands, these powers will eventually end up in the hands of someone you don't trust. It's certain to be so. And then it will be too late.

It is much easier to not give away power in the first place than it is to take it back after it has been misused.

Right after 9/11, many, many polls were conducted based on variations of the question, "How much of your liberty are you willing to give up to fight the War on Terror?" My answer then, and now, is simple. "None." There is no level of fear which can convince me to trade liberty for security. 9/11 certainly doesn't come close. I do not fear Al Queda. And even if I did, I wouldn't be OK with many of the things that have been done to protect me from that threat.

"They hate us for our freedoms. So, to protect you from them, we're going to take it away." What sense does that make?

--Shannon
 
Then you clearly haven't read the act. It denies habeas to ALIEN enemy combatants. Its specifically goes to the trouble of explaining that only non-citizens can have their habeas rights suspended.
I have now read the act in its entirety, and this is the relevant bit:

(e)(1) No court, justice, or judge shall have jurisdiction to hear or consider an application for a writ of habeas corpus filed by or on behalf of an alien detained by the United States who has been determined by the United States to have been properly detained as an enemy combatant or is awaiting such determination.
I stand corrected. This law is still immoral, as pertains to any alien living inside US jurisdiction. But at least it doesn't apply to me. I guess that's something, right?

--Len.
 
All that aside however, if this is the type of person having his "rights" violated by the PA, I think we're headed in the right direction.

I'm going to be inflammatory here (flame suit on), and say this kind of thing is the real treason. Our government's job isn't to protect our safety, but to protect our rights. Safety is secondary to the constitution, and rights are often expensive in blood. Our rights and fighting for them (not just wars) have caused deaths (civil rights, freedom of speech, religion, establishment, have all caused many deaths). The oath of the military and the executive is to defend the Constitution. Those that use their office to suspend our rights have broken their oaths by contravening the Constitution for public safety.

Many of us would agree that even if guns were deemed a public hazard in the scientific means, that gun ownership would STILL be an important Constitutional right (and an expensive one) because of its guarantees in defense of tyranny, nation, and person. But they say different about rights of individuals being held as "suspected terrorists." Then, safety is more important than rights?

So, people die because we followed constitutional convention and law. That sucks, but at least our country and it's foundations are bedrock solid. The society itself and its bedrock are more important, and people in the military die defending the Constitution. It's awful when they fall, but they deserve the elevated status for having given the ultimate sacrifice not for our safety, but for our very way of life, for our rights, for our Consitution. They are heroes that way. How selfish to think of our safety over the longevity of our country, and the real ideas that we've fought for in order to have something so much larger.

It amazes me how fearful people are of terrorists or criminals (or gun owners in plenty of cases) that they're so willing to give the government our rights and weaken the Constitution. Some call it "weak on defense." I call those people the real cowards. They want to give up what we really are to arrest some terrorists. They give up beliefs for safety. Pathetic and weak.

Through that, the terrorists have achieved their goals. They have "terrorized" and forced us to alter our way of life. The people running around tearing their hair out and and worrying about terrorists behind every corner are fear mongers, and by trading rights for safety, they make themselves the real traitors.
 
Maybe this will help some

We starting off talking about the Patriot Act and Stage2 changed the subject to the Military Commissions Act. These are two different things. One in no way was restricted to Aliens and the other is unclear. What does the USAG say?

Gonzales says the Constitution doesn't guarantee habeas corpus
Attorney general's remarks on citizens' right astound the chair of Senate judiciary panel
Bob Egelko, Chronicle Staff Writer

Wednesday, January 24, 2007

"The Constitution doesn't say every individual in the United States or every citizen is hereby granted or assured the right of habeas,'' Gonzales told Sen. Arlen Specter, R-Pa., during a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing Jan. 17.

Gonzales acknowledged that the Constitution declares "habeas corpus shall not be suspended unless ... in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it.'' But he insisted that "there is no express grant of habeas in the Constitution.''

Specter was incredulous, asking how the Constitution could bar the suspension of a right that didn't exist -- a right, he noted, that was first recognized in medieval England as a shield against the king's power to dispatch troublesome subjects to royal dungeons.

Later in the hearing, Gonzales described habeas corpus as "one of our most cherished rights'' and noted that Congress had protected that right in the 1789 law that established the federal court system. But he never budged from his position on the absence of constitutional protection -- a position that seemingly would leave Congress free to reduce habeas corpus rights or repeal them altogether.

Gonzales did not propose any such drastic rollback and devoted most of his discussion to fending off senatorial attacks on a law signed by President Bush last October. That law included a provision stripping federal courts of authority to hear habeas corpus suits by noncitizens classified by the government as "enemy combatants.'' Specter and Sen. Patrick Leahy, D-Vt., the Judiciary Committee chairman, are sponsoring legislation to undo the restriction.

But critics on both ends of the ideological spectrum said the attorney general was claiming a broader and more chilling power.

"This is the key protection that people have if they're held in violation of the law,'' said Erwin Chemerinsky, a Duke University law professor who has criticized the administration's actions on civil liberties. "If there's no habeas corpus, and if the government wants to pick you or me off the street and hold us indefinitely, how do we get our release?''

Chemerinsky was joined by Douglas Kmiec, a Pepperdine University law professor and former Justice Department official under Presidents Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush.

If Gonzales' view prevailed, Kmiec said, "one of the basic protections of human liberty against the powers of the state would be embarrassingly absent from our constitutional system.''

Justice Department spokesman Brian Roehrkasse said this week that Gonzales stood by his remarks but was asserting only that the text of the Constitution does not guarantee habeas corpus. The attorney general recognizes, Roehrkasse said, that the Supreme Court has declared "the Constitution protects (habeas corpus) as it existed at common law'' in England. Any such rights, he added, would not apply to foreigners held as enemy combatants.

Habeas corpus was recognized in English law at least as early as the Magna Carta, in 1215, and perhaps earlier. In the United States, it refers to bringing a prisoner's case before a federal judge, who has the power to order the government to release anyone who is being held illegally.

It has become an issue in Bush's efforts to hold military captives at the U.S. naval base in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, with little or no access to civilian courts. The Supreme Court ruled in 2004 that that those prisoners could file habeas corpus claims in court, rejecting the administration's argument that inmates held outside the United States had no such right. That ruling was based on the court's interpretation of laws passed by Congress and did not discuss whether Guantanamo inmates had a constitutional right to habeas corpus.

The distinction is potentially crucial, because Congress, in the law signed last October, prohibited federal courts from reviewing habeas corpus suits by Guantanamo prisoners or any other noncitizens held as enemy combatants. The law's validity depends on whether the Supreme Court concludes that the prisoners' constitutional rights are being violated.

The issue of habeas corpus came up during last week's hearing when Specter asked Gonzales how a congressional statute could withdraw the right "when there's an express constitutional provision that it can't be suspended and an explicit Supreme Court holding that it applies to Guantanamo alien detainees?''

The court ruled only on the right to habeas corpus that was created by statute, Gonzales replied. He then asserted that the Constitution does not contain any express right of habeas corpus, only "a prohibition against taking it away.''

The issue extends far beyond Guantanamo.

The Supreme Court has interpreted federal judges' powers of habeas corpus to apply to prison systems around the nation and the legality of convictions in state as well as federal court.

For example, federal judges, who are appointed for life, regularly invoke habeas corpus when overturning convictions or death sentences of state inmates, overruling decisions by elected state judges.

Bruce Fein, a former Reagan Justice Department attorney who has become an outspoken critic of the Bush administration, noted that the day before his Judiciary Committee appearance, Gonzales had denounced "activist judges'' and advised them to stay out of national security matters.

Gonzales' comments to the committee on habeas corpus, Fein said, contained a message that "Congress doesn't have to let them (judges) decide national security matters.''

"It's part of an attempt to create the idea that during conflicts, the three branches of government collapse into one, and it is the president,'' Fein said.
------
What Gonzales, Specter said
Excerpts from the exchange between Attorney General Alberto Gonzales and Sen. Arlen Specter, R-Pa., at a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing Jan. 17:

Gonzales: There is no express grant of habeas in the Constitution. There's a prohibition against taking it away. ...

Specter: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. The Constitution says you can't take it away except in cases of rebellion or invasion. Doesn't that mean you have the right of habeas corpus unless there's an invasion or rebellion?

Gonzales: I meant by that comment, the Constitution doesn't say every individual in the United States or every citizen is hereby granted or assured the right to habeas. Doesn't say that. It simply says the right of habeas corpus shall not be suspended except...

Specter: You may be treading on your interdiction and violating common sense, Mr. Attorney General.

Source: Senate Judiciary Committee transcript

So ignoring all of the verbage and wordage the USAG says that there is no right. So regardless of whatever acts may or may not say it is the position of the US Government that no such right exists. So according to the AG if the right is not alliterated in the COTUS than too bad, you don't have it. We could debate for days about the rights being reserved to the people and all that but the position of the government is clear: There is no right to Habeas Corpus.

But that won't be enough to satisfy the misinformation monsters out there so where is that act? I know I put here somewhere.... oh yeah, here it is.....

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=109_cong_bills&docid=f:s3930enr.txt.pdf

And whatever does it say anyway?

‘‘In this chapter:
‘‘(1) UNLAWFUL ENEMY COMBATANT.—(A) The term ‘unlawful
enemy combatant’ means—
‘‘(i) a person who has engaged in hostilities or who
has purposefully and materially supported hostilities
against the United States or its co-belligerents who is
not a lawful enemy combatant (including a person who
is part of the Taliban, al Qaeda, or associated forces);
or
‘‘(ii) a person who, before, on, or after the date of
the enactment of the Military Commissions Act of 2006,
has been determined to be an unlawful enemy combatant
by a Combatant Status Review Tribunal or another competent
tribunal established under the authority of the
President or the Secretary of Defense.
‘‘(B) CO-BELLIGERENT.—In this paragraph, the term ‘cobelligerent’,
with respect to the United States, means any State
or armed force joining and directly engaged with the United
States in hostilities or directly supporting hostilities against
a common enemy.
‘‘(2) LAWFUL ENEMY COMBATANT.—The term ‘lawful enemy
combatant’ means a person who is—
‘‘(A) a member of the regular forces of a State party
engaged in hostilities against the United States;
‘‘(B) a member of a militia, volunteer corps, or organized
resistance movement belonging to a State party
engaged in such hostilities, which are under responsible
command, wear a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at
a distance, carry their arms openly, and abide by the
law of war; or
‘‘(C) a member of a regular armed force who professes
allegiance to a government engaged in such hostilities,
but not recognized by the United States.
‘‘(3) ALIEN.—The term ‘alien’ means a person who is not
a citizen of the United States.

Okay now we know what an unlawful combatant is. Now where is the part in the act that says that the act applies "only" to aliens? looking... looking... looking.... using find function..... Oh dang it is not there. In fact the only other mention of the word citizen is that aliens must have attorneys who are US citizens. Too bad for you accused terrorists and unlawful combatants. I wonder if your attorney is from New York....

Well what is the jurisdiction of the military commission?

‘‘§ 948c. Persons subject to military commissions
‘‘Any alien unlawful enemy combatant is subject to trial by
military commission under this chapter.

Okay got it.

S. 3930—4
‘‘§ 948d. Jurisdiction of military commissions
‘‘(a) JURISDICTION.—A military commission under this chapter
shall have jurisdiction to try any offense made punishable by this
chapter or the law of war when committed by an alien unlawful
enemy combatant before, on, or after September 11, 2001.

Okay got it.

‘‘(b) LAWFUL ENEMY COMBATANTS.—Military commissions under
this chapter shall not have jurisdiction over lawful enemy combatants.
Lawful enemy combatants who violate the law of war are
subject to chapter 47 of this title. Courts-martial established under
that chapter shall have jurisdiction to try a lawful enemy combatant
for any offense made punishable under this chapter.

Okay got it. So it says the government can't try lawful combatants but it does not say anything about not trying US Citizens. But according the USAG if you don't have that right you don't have that right.

But what about non-aliens under unlawful combatants? Well following the convulted reasoning that the USAG follows (and it would be up to him to decide) it is not spelled out that the MCA does not apply to them therefore it very well may. No where does it ever say that a US citizen will not be tried under the act. No where does it say "only aliens".

For some courts that is good enough but not really strong enough to bang it home with a statement. Ahh, but wait... What is this? US Code?

§ 1451. Revocation of naturalization

(a) Concealment of material evidence; refusal to *testify
It shall be the duty of the United States attorneys for the respective districts, upon affidavit showing good cause therefor, to institute proceedings in any district court of the United States in the judicial district in which the naturalized citizen may reside at the time of bringing suit, for the purpose of revoking and setting aside the order admitting such person to citizenship and canceling the certificate of naturalization on the ground that such order and certificate of naturalization were illegally procured or were procured by concealment of a material fact or by willful misrepresentation, and such revocation and setting aside of the order admitting such person to citizenship and such canceling of certificate of naturalization shall be effective as of the original date of the order and certificate, respectively: Provided, That refusal on the part of a naturalized citizen within a period of ten years following his naturalization to testify as a witness in any proceeding before a congressional committee concerning his subversive activities, in a case where such person has been convicted of contempt for such refusal, shall be held to constitute a ground for revocation of such person’s naturalization under this subsection as having been procured by concealment of a material fact or by willful misrepresentation. If the naturalized citizen does not reside in any judicial district in the United States at the time of bringing such suit, the proceedings may be instituted in the United States District Court for the District of Columbia or in the United States district court in the judicial district in which such person last had his residence.

So let me get this straight. You get arrested for "terrorism". You utilize your right against self incrimination. Then you get your citizenship revoked and now you are 100% subject to MCA. So much for innocent until proven guilty...

But yes the USAG says you have no right to Habeas Corpus.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/01/24/MNGDONO11O1.DTL

You wanna watch it on You Tube?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=YIFqYVAOosM

But what are we worried about here? They will let you know what you are in for when they are good and ready....
 
Right after 9/11, many, many polls were conducted based on variations of the question, "How much of your liberty are you willing to give up to fight the War on Terror?" My answer then, and now, is simple. "None." There is no level of fear which can convince me to trade liberty for security. 9/11 certainly doesn't come close. I do not fear Al Queda. And even if I did, I wouldn't be OK with many of the things that have been done to protect me from that threat.

And I don't disagree with anything you've just said. My only point is that the patriot act hasn't really changed anything. People who are all up in arms about the act can't really point to a single thing the government has done that it didn't do BEFORE the act was passed. Thats the point.

I don't agree with governmental misconduct. But I also don't agree that the PA has given government officials a free pass to trample anyone's rights. What little problems there have been have been met and dealt with by the system as it was intended.


It amazes me how fearful people are of terrorists or criminals (or gun owners in plenty of cases) that they're so willing to give the government our rights and weaken the Constitution. Some call it "weak on defense." I call those people the real cowards. They want to give up what we really are to arrest some terrorists. They give up beliefs for safety. Pathetic and weak.

Through that, the terrorists have achieved their goals. They have "terrorized" and forced us to alter our way of life. The people running around tearing their hair out and and worrying about terrorists behind every corner are fear mongers, and by trading rights for safety, they make themselves the real traitors.

What amazes me is how people like to gloss over what other say in an attempt to pigeonhole their views. I have NEVER suggested anyone give up ANY rights for safety. I NEVER suggested that Padilla be denied a trial.

What I did say was that the PA isn't the faustian bargian that some believe, and that Padilla (while a citizen) is 99% likely to be a terrorist.


We starting off talking about the Patriot Act and Stage2 changed the subject to the Military Commissions Act. These are two different things. One in no way was restricted to Aliens and the other is unclear. What does the USAG say?

For the record I didn't bring in the MCA and I think Gonzales is an idiot. Regardless of this however, there is no way that US citizens can have their habeas rights suspended or can face a military comission. They CAN be labeled an enemy combatant. There isn't anything in the constitution preventing anyone from being labeled an enemy combatant. They still get their day in court however.
 
People who are all up in arms about the act can't really point to a single thing the government has done that it didn't do BEFORE the act was passed.
But it did give those unlawful actions the color of law. So now these kind of despotic actions cannot be fought on the grounds that they are illegal. That is the real worry. Before the USG had to be careful because its action were illegal, now that is no longer the case and they can act with impunity.

Jefferson
 
I NEVER suggested that Padilla be denied a trial.
No, but you did say this:

I never said don't give him a trial. What I said was give him the quick and dirty version.

Which in effect is denying him his Constitutional right to a fair trial.
 
Stage2: For the record I didn't bring in the MCA and I think Gonzales is an idiot.

Okay you may think he is an idiot but it still does not change the position of the US Government. The USAG is the government when it comes to legal matters of the state.

Regardless of this however, there is no way that US citizens can have their habeas rights suspended or can face a military comission.

Why not? What prevents it? Please point out the part that says that it can not be done. Also explain why citizenship can not be revoked as I demonstrated and then the "former" citizen tried under MCA. As far I as can tell there is nothing to stop it either one from happening.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top