Federal EFMJ, when and why the changes?

[3 gun]

Discovered this posting in another thread, didn't find any details using "search" so I figured I'd ask.

I tried a few of each when they first came out. All expanded like they claimed. All ran just fine in my pistols. I load a few of them into my carry mags for the cold weather seasons. Figure I can count on them to work even with heavy coats that might mess with the normal HP loads. Never have had to put them to the test. At worse I'd expect them to work like FMJ or clogged HP loads.

It seems they have made changes since the first release. I was just checking the Federal web site and see they list 105/9mm, 135/40S&W and 165/45acp as the current loads, none are +P. I have 124+P/9mm, 165/40S&W and 200+P/45acp loads.

When and why did they make the change? I don't think I'd even give these new lighter loads a chance with so many good choices of SD HP loads.

 

[Steve C]

The +P loads are still sold to Police departments and listed under Federals Law enforcement ammo. The lighter load versions where for civilian sales and sold as Personal Defense ammo.

 

[JShirley]

That is disappointing. I liked the old stuff, especially for long barrels.

John

 

[Steve C]

You can still find it as police surplus though its generally more expensive than the HST or Hydra shock.

 

[blackhawk2000]

Ask a Detroit Police Officer how they like it. It is not effective on people.

 

[Rustynuts]

Go here to buy.

http://ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/...search_in_description=1&keywords=EFMJ&x=7&y=7

 

[JShirley]

BlackHawk, the 9mm I tested worked great in tissue.

 

[blackhawk2000]

DPD uses G22's. An Officer I was talking with at a gun show was looking for some. They require them to carry it. He talked of a point blank shot to the head, of a perp fighting with another Officer. The bullet bounced off the guys forehead. He also talked about another guy that a bunch of officers lit up with a lot of shots. They finally killed him, but at the autopsy, bullets were falling out of the guys Carhartt jacket that failed to penetrate. I'll post more info if I can get more first hand reports.

 

[bpsig]

this is the new round the army is going to be issuing also . You thought ball 9mm mil was bad now how about this ?

 

[golden]

It Can Happen

BLACKHAWK2000,

A bullet can bounce off the skull, but not because it is weak. I know of at least two cases where a person was shot in the skull and the bullet was DEFLECTED by the curviture of the skull.

The first case involved a boy who was shot in the head. The bullet, a .22 did not penetrate the skull. Instead it followed the curviture of the skull and exited from the skin on the other side of his head.

The second case was one of those infamous "TERMINATOR" type of shootings where the subject was shot over and over and did not stay down. One shot hit him in the head and was deflected. He went down, then got up again. He was finally brought down by a pelvis shot and bled out.

Jim

 

[Moonclip]

I met a guy that had a 7.62x39 round deflect/glance off his skull!

 

[Avery Goodschott]

I like the concept and own about 600 rounds of 9mm. The old ammo lab discouraged me from carrying it with a comment that the "petals" slide through the wound rather than "cutting" like a Ranger does.

 

[Erik]

The problem with Federal's EFMJ is penetration related. Put simply, it expands rapidly while penetrating shallowly. If they are tweaking them, you'd think it would be to make them heavier in hopes of adding penetration. That's where the incentive would seem to be, in that a few inches more in the pentration department would allow most of the EFMJ loads to reach or exceed the 12" mark in the FBI Test Protocal. If they could figure that out while making them a bit tougher, they'd be in a position to place their product better in the market.

On the net on several sites attributed as coming from Federal:

Some info from Federal:

5 round avgs, FBI Test Protocol

P45CSP1 200 gr Glock 21 12/14/00

bare gel 978 12.95/.653
cloth 984 13.7/.651
wboard 983 12.15/.676
pwood 982 12.65/.654
steel 992 12.2/.59 (jacket/core sep/77% ret wt)
glass 1002 11.7/.576 (67%)

P45CSP2 165 gr SIG P220 3/6/01

bare gel 1068 9.1/.74
cloth 1032 9.9/.722
wboard 1054 8.9/.726
pwood 1043 9.55/.743
steel 1047 8.15/.58 (71%)
glass 1047 7.85/.578 (61%)

P9CSP1 124 gr SIG P228 1063 fps 1/00

bare gel 12.85/.519
cloth 12.55/.519
wboard 11.1/.525
pwood 13.2/.51
steel 9.5/.466 (65%)
glass 8.5/.511 (60%)

Beretta 92

bare 11.35/.567
cloth 12.1/.552
wboard 10/.563
pwood 10.8/.561
steel 9.33/.492 (65%)
glass 7.9/.526 (55%)


P9CSP1 124 gr HK MP5 1225 fps 1/00

bare gel 11.3/.600
cloth 10.9/.596
wboard 9/.592
pwood 10.3/.596
steel 11.1/.491 (68%)
glass 8.6/.512 (57%)


P40CSP1

bare 12.45/.617
cloth 13.3/.605
wboard 12.8/.610
pwood 15.95/.579
steel 11.65/.513 (72%)
glass 11.75/.530 (67%)

The the lighter "civilian" personal defense loads (105/9, 135/40, 165/45) expand more and penetrate less than the heavier LE loads tested above. The results are "abreviated" for what ever reason.

105/9
bare 10/.57
cloth 10.5/.62
wboard 9.5/.61
pwood 10/.55

165/45
bare 10/.77
cloth 10/.77
wboard 10.5/.76
pwood 12/.67

135/40
bare 11.5/.77

Compare to their Hydra Shok:

147 HS 13.0/.62 bare, 15/.57 cloth
165 HS 13.5/.63 bare, 14.5/.60 cloth
230 HS 13.7/.70 bare, 16.4/.66 cloth

---

The thing is, to "pass" the FBI Test Protocol bullets are expected to penetrate from between 12 to 18 inches while retaining most of their weight. Expansion is a factor in deciding which given caliber or load "is best," not in passing.

And as you can see... there are several areas where the desired penetration and/or weight retention leaves a lot to be desired.

Still, some will choose it, citing their reasons. Fine, so long as they make an informed decision.

But the question should be, is there anything offered by the EFMJ over commonly available, tried, true, and more effective types of ammunition?

The answer appears to be no, in which case why choose it?

 

[seeker_two]

CorBon Pow'R'Ball performs a lot better than that...

 

[45ACPUSER]

I have personally witnessed 147 ST 9mm imbedded in a heavy leather biker type jacket, the perp was pissed off and nothing more then welts that one would with wearing a ballistic vest! Shootings are dynamic! The events are not replicated in the lab......

 

[buzz_knox]

this is the new round the army is going to be issuing also . You thought ball 9mm mil was bad now how about this ?

Where did you hear the military was going to EFMJ?

 

[blackhawk2000]

I've heard tons of storys about the funny things bullets do in actual shootings. I've heard of baseball hat brims deflecting shotgun slugs. I could even see the rounds not going through the Carhartt. What I can't believe is the point blank .40 to the head that just bounced off. I do believe it happened, but I wouldn't carry anything that failed that miserably.

 

[3 gun]

Reading the stats just backs up my gut feeling. The heavier loads preformed better than the lighter loads. I haven't seen anything that would make me stop loading them in carry pistols. Haven't seen anything to make me think they are magic. They might work better than a clogged HP and I doubt they will behave any worse. I think the heavier loads will do the job if I place them on target.