Feeding a J Frame for Concealed Carry

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That's one of those "how many fairies will fit on the head of a pin" threads. If all that concerned, get a bigger gun.
 
I did keep the Remington R38S12 +P 158gr LHPSWC load for my 642 - then added extra boxes of it, when it was available, to load all of my speedloaders and moonclips alike, whether they were for .38 or .357M. I added several boxes of 148gr LWC for my recoil-shy wife and a proposed second 642 purchase - but after shooting mine with them, she went back to the +P's in her 2" 10, which she loves to shoot. Range time is spent shooting the similar +P load made by GA Arms. Sadly, my stash of that is dwindling - and resupply is nearly impossible. Milder 158gr LSWC homebrews will have to do for the range.
 
Ruger LCR with 110 gr. lead wad cutters hand loaded to be "brisk" but not brutal in recoil.
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We're talking J frames here, although the loading would not necessarily be unique among J frames and other brands. I would note that too light a bullet can go fast enough to produce leading even in a light load. I use 110 gr in .38 Special but not .357 at any load level.
 
That's one of those "how many fairies will fit on the head of a pin" threads. If all that concerned, get a bigger gun.
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Not sure what you mean there. Gelatin is an imperfect testing medium, but any information about penetration is relevant to a discussion regarding handgun bullets IMHO.
 
Sometimes it is difficult to contain the scope of a topic. My eyes glaze over on some of that stuff. I am grateful that some have the ability and level of interest to sort it all out and share some useful summary.
 
^^

The useful summary is that while the light, fast, expanding "bullet of the day" comes and goes as their commercial sales wax and wane, the 158 grain hard-cast lead semi-wadcutter loaded to a level that combines reasonable recoil with reasonable velocity for the barrel length it's shot thru stays around forever.


Just sayin'.... mebbe Elmer was onto something. And mebbe what the 158 grain SWC needs is a fancy name so the buyers can feel better about using them...


Willie

.
 
Willie Sutton said:
^^

The useful summary is that while the light, fast, expanding "bullet of the day" comes and goes as their commercial sales wax and wane, the 158 grain hard-cast lead semi-wadcutter loaded to a level that combines reasonable recoil with reasonable velocity for the barrel length it's shot thru stays around forever.


Just sayin'.... mebbe Elmer was onto something. And mebbe what the 158 grain SWC needs is a fancy name so the buyers can feel better about using them...


Willie

.
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Just make sure the name includes "tactical" or maybe paint them fluorescent green and call them "Zombie Wads." :rolleyes:
 
One thing I don't like about the 158 SWC design is that in the lightweight J frames such as the 442, the length of the bullet leaves very little room for error should the bullet start pulling and "jumping the crimp". One benefit of the full wadcutter design in this respect is that there is plenty of room in the cylinder such that should the bullets start to move, barring a near complete separation of the bullet from the case, it will not bind up the firearm.

As to penetration, I appreciate the consideration of the topic given here:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

fbisample_zpsbc277feb.jpg
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Hence, given the variability of self defense situations (differences in height and weight, thickness of clothing, potential barriers, animal vs. human, and unknown variables), using a larger, heavier, and harder bullet with a full caliber sharp and wide meplat can increase penetration and the diameter of the "permanent" wound cavity. This may serve to mitigate the reduction of the firearm's effectiveness from short barrels, in direct contrast to bullets designed to meet the minimum FBI penetration standard. Just one point of view.
 
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Does anyone know of a commercial 148gr full wadcutter round loaded to +P level? I've stayed with the 'FBI load', the +P 158gr LHPSWC, for years in my 642, etc. I downgraded, recoil-wise, to the ZERO target loads in 148gr LWC, but my boxes of $7.49/50, sale price at a local store, such reloads from <2yr ago (Ah, the 'good old days'!) have evaporated. I have plenty of my homebrew 158gr LSWC, but I like to 'carry' commercial ammo for protection.

I guess I am still recalling a discussion elsewhere - and some time ago - re the penetration of semiwadcutters leaving a wound channel similar to a round nosed bullet. That is, the smaller meplat and taper tending to spread it's way through the gelatin in tests - some even closing behind the SWC, albeit not as much as with the RN bullet. The full wadcutter, on the other hand, shears a full diameter wound channel.

Stainz
 
I don't disagree with the quoted statement about rapid blood loss being incapacitating, and everyone understands that damage to the central nervous system, if that is what the bullet hits, will also be incapacitating.

I would like to point out, based on a lot of years of hunting experience, in addition to treating injured animals as a practicing veterinarian that pneumothorax is also rapidly incapacitating. Damaging the lungs, even if a major blood vessel or other organ is missed, will allow air to accumulate between the inner body wall and the outer surface of the lungs. This collapses the lungs resulting in rapid suffocation. This is a major reason a double lung shot with either bullet or arrow is so effective in bringing the animal down quickly. How long can you hold your breath?

Just another argument for using the chest as a target...the lungs are a large target.

Thanks to everyone so far for all the good comments. I appreciate it.
 
On the subject of shot placement, I've read that Jim Cirillo and the NYPD stakeout squad really favored shots to the pelvis. Now this was in part to having really lame ammo, but still is very interesting given that it is much bigger area than COM and therefor easier to hit. Just some food for thought.
 
J-Bar said:
Can you explain why one would prefer a pelvic hit with " lame ammo"? I had not heard that before.
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They had .38 Spl. standard pressure 158gr. ball ammo which killed, but did not always "stop" the criminal quickly. With the pelvic shot there are two main arteries which leads to faster blood loss and you can not physically stand with a broken pelvis so they are less capable of moving and will be easier to hit again if needed and is also suppose to be extremely painful. It's not as good as a shot to the lower brain, but not the worst either.

Although Fackler does say it is the worst place to aim for.
 
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Originally Posted by J-Bar
I would simply appreciate knowing from those of you who carry a .38 Special revolver what ammo you use. If you care to give reasons for your choice that will also be appreciated.
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Originally Posted by Vodoun da Vinci
Ruger LCR with 110 gr. lead wad cutters hand loaded to be "brisk" but not brutal in recoil.
Click to expand...

Originally Posted by RealGun
We're talking J frames here . . .
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But, hmmm.
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Nothing compared to the scope creep that followed. Note that his ".38 Special revolvers" are not necessarily J frames. What are we discussing? What is the scope? Just sayin', but the thread becomes impossible to follow at some point.
 
I like to use Remington Golden Saber 125 grain .38 special +P HPJ (High-Performance Jacket).

Penetration of 13.75" in FBI calibrated ballistics gelatin with 4 layer of IWB recommended denim. Consistent expansion of approx. .60-.65" with near 100% weight retention.

I WOULD probably use the Speer Gold Dot 135 grain .38 Special +P Short-Barrel load in my S&W 642-1, that is IF I could find any of it. Both locally and on the net, I haven't been able to find the Speer load in a long time.

The Remington load however, is available both locally and on the net, and really it's performance is every bit as good as the Speer load IMHO. This opinion was formulated from viewing multiple gel block tests of both loads in videos and forums all throughout the internet.

JMHO.

YMMV.
 
NYPD Stake Out Squad....

To my knowledge(which includes reading the late Jim Cirello's own articles) a NYPD Surgeon recommended the members of Cirello's special stake-out detail aim for the human pelvis(pelvic girdle).
This was to immobilize the violent subject & to cause injuries if the felon/robber had body armor(bullet-proof vest).

RS
 
The pelvis also receives blood from a large artery and a pelvic hit would cause large internal bleeding to occur.

Stu
 
Does anyone know of a commercial 148gr full wadcutter round loaded to +P level? I've stayed with the 'FBI load', the +P 158gr LHPSWC, for years in my 642, etc. I downgraded, recoil-wise, to the ZERO target loads in 148gr LWC, but my boxes of $7.49/50, sale price at a local store, such reloads from <2yr ago (Ah, the 'good old days'!) have evaporated. I have plenty of my homebrew 158gr LSWC, but I like to 'carry' commercial ammo for protection.

I guess I am still recalling a discussion elsewhere - and some time ago - re the penetration of semiwadcutters leaving a wound channel similar to a round nosed bullet. That is, the smaller meplat and taper tending to spread it's way through the gelatin in tests - some even closing behind the SWC, albeit not as much as with the RN bullet. The full wadcutter, on the other hand, shears a full diameter wound channel.

Stainz
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I believe you might do well by upping the velocity with a 125 gr hollow point such as the XTP. The velocity will aid the expansion of the hollow point. I believe you might find that in ammo designed for short barrels. From what I have seen, you won't do much in wadcutters without making your own ammo.
 
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