Gila Jorge
Member
Jack Booted thugs in action...simply protecting their butts. I would sue the bejabbers out of those illegimate sobs. I would own that friggin county and city.
Felony stop leaves family traumatized
- Thread starter Preacherman
- Start date
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shaved_reynolds
Member
- Joined
- Jan 6, 2003
- Messages
- 2
" how do they know who's who until THEY GET TOTAL CONTROL OF THE SITUATION? "
It's difficult to know who's who and get control of a situation when you're a Hillbilly Hick Cop (HHC) so backwards from inbreeding that all you know how to do is use that shotgun.
It was a bulldog...is the cop so much of a pussy that he can't control a bulldog without a shotgun?!? Apparently so. Come on folks...ever hear of mace? And don't give me the "you don't know how to react in a situation like this...it's tough being a cop... blah blah blah" bullsh*t. He screwed up BIGTIME and I wouldn't want him "protecting" or "serving" sh*t in the future.
The "officer" involved here NEEDS to lose his job. He NEEDS to be made an example. The Smoak family deserves to OWN his family...this "cop" deserves to be ruined. He'll have trouble sleeping at night knowing that A LOT of people want him ruined. Words do not express the punishment I would take on this "cop" and his family if he killed a member of my family in front of me.
It's difficult to know who's who and get control of a situation when you're a Hillbilly Hick Cop (HHC) so backwards from inbreeding that all you know how to do is use that shotgun.
It was a bulldog...is the cop so much of a pussy that he can't control a bulldog without a shotgun?!? Apparently so. Come on folks...ever hear of mace? And don't give me the "you don't know how to react in a situation like this...it's tough being a cop... blah blah blah" bullsh*t. He screwed up BIGTIME and I wouldn't want him "protecting" or "serving" sh*t in the future.
The "officer" involved here NEEDS to lose his job. He NEEDS to be made an example. The Smoak family deserves to OWN his family...this "cop" deserves to be ruined. He'll have trouble sleeping at night knowing that A LOT of people want him ruined. Words do not express the punishment I would take on this "cop" and his family if he killed a member of my family in front of me.
cardboardkiller
Member
How do you know that one of the cops hadn't ever had a dog sicced on him?
I stated it before and I'll state it again, A dog should be treated as a loaded weapon, if you don't want a loaded weapon to be available for use, LOCK IT UP. If the cop was scared enough to have to shoot the dog, why not shut the door and keep himself 99.9% safe from the dog? I only say 99.9% safe because I have seen a dog training academy video of a Doberman smashing out a car window to save his master from an "attack." Surely they are not any cops out there that have not worked with a K-9 unit or watched enough tv at some point in their lives to have seen one way or another what kind of damage a canine can inflict.
If you are that ignorant of the unpredictably dangerous twist that a dog can put on a situation, come over to my house, I'll put my dog in car with door open and you can try to manhandle me into a set of cuffs, you won't get the first one on before you have 110lbs of severly agitated dog on you that will in all reality deal you a broken arm before you can take a second breath.
I stated it before and I'll state it again, A dog should be treated as a loaded weapon, if you don't want a loaded weapon to be available for use, LOCK IT UP. If the cop was scared enough to have to shoot the dog, why not shut the door and keep himself 99.9% safe from the dog? I only say 99.9% safe because I have seen a dog training academy video of a Doberman smashing out a car window to save his master from an "attack." Surely they are not any cops out there that have not worked with a K-9 unit or watched enough tv at some point in their lives to have seen one way or another what kind of damage a canine can inflict.
If you are that ignorant of the unpredictably dangerous twist that a dog can put on a situation, come over to my house, I'll put my dog in car with door open and you can try to manhandle me into a set of cuffs, you won't get the first one on before you have 110lbs of severly agitated dog on you that will in all reality deal you a broken arm before you can take a second breath.
shaved_reynolds
Member
- Joined
- Jan 6, 2003
- Messages
- 2
"If you are that ignorant of the unpredictably dangerous twist that a dog can put on a situation.."
So you're saying that the "cop" should have locked the door to the car? Well, then the HHC's are still at fault for f-ing up the entire thing...his family should still be owned.
And frankly, I have two 100+ lbs shepards...I know how to handle a dog
So you're saying that the "cop" should have locked the door to the car? Well, then the HHC's are still at fault for f-ing up the entire thing...his family should still be owned.
And frankly, I have two 100+ lbs shepards...I know how to handle a dog
alan
Member
From what I recall reading in the WND piece I mentioned, the lady of the family that was stoped asked the cops to close the car doors, so that the dog or dogs could not get out. They didn't do as she asked, perhaps being to excited by the opportunity to show who was boss, as with waving guns around and ordering people to get to their knees, all that happy "stuff".
Possibly fortunate that it was just a dog that got it's head blown away. Eventually, this fiasco will get straightened out, likely via an "undisclosed settlement".
Possibly fortunate that it was just a dog that got it's head blown away. Eventually, this fiasco will get straightened out, likely via an "undisclosed settlement".
Zak Smith: There seems to be a lot of juvenile name calling and steroetyping here, thus my confusion regarding the name of the site.
KP95DOA: Your sarcasm is duly noted. I have nothing but respect for the COs I work with. Hope you have a better day at work tomorrow.
The point I was trying to make is simple. When I closed on my house the paperwork and procedures were somewhat confusing to me. I asked a lot of questions and my attorney did his best to make me understand everything I needed to, but by no stretch of the imagination did this make me an attorney, put me in a position to tell my attorney how to do his job, or actually do my attorney's job. AND I WAS THERE.
NONE of us were there on this felony stop. Who are we to pick this apart? A lot of you make some pretty ignorant assumptions based on what very little you know about this one call.
Answer these:
1)What kind of car were they in?
2)What exactly did the caller tell 911 he/she witnessed?
3)Was that information accurately/timely relayed to units?
4)Was DMV able to provide reg. info in a timely manner (this is more of a common problem than most of you would think)
5)Depending on #2 what would running the plate have accomplished?
6) where exactly did the stop take place, how much traffic/bystanders was there?
7) What were the lighting conditions?
8) how long did this stop take from start to finish?
9) what were the weather conditions
10) If the family was upset, how were they behaving/reacting?
MaterBlaster; your question "SO the SOP here when worried about hostages, and armed perps in the same car, is to yell over a bull horn get out one at a time while the cops are at a safe distance from the car???? and then take the time to handcuff each of the folks who got out, perp or victim??????"
The answer is "basically yes"
I've conducted felony stops (one with an armed hostage taker (gun),an accomplice and two hostages, that started with a 911 call from a third party, just as you described) and I assist in instructing them at the academy. A felony stop is not an investigation. straight from my SOPs - " the objective of a felony stop is to protect the lives of both the civilian and the officer. The officer's duty is to control the stop at all times without the threat of injury to himself or others, but be able to apply deadly force to the suspect if necessary" Most of them go well, some of them don't.. life ain't perfect, neither am I. Neither or you. And there are A LOT of other things going on during such stops for reasons it would take me hours to explain. That's why cops are trained at an academy. This isn't something you learn watching TV or surfing the net. Or working a cell block btw - KP95DOA
I don't know why the felony stop was called out, I don't know why the door wasn't shut, I don't know why someone forgot their wallet on the hood of their car/truck/van/suv, I don't know what the caller told 911, I don't know what 911 told the 1st dispatched officer and I don't know what he relayed to other officers on the scene. I also don't know any of the answers to the above questions. And I don't know what could have been done differently mainly because I wasn't there to see what was or wasn't done in the first place.
You know what people? Sometimes even when you do everything right, something goes wrong.
My two cents, keep the change.
KP95DOA: Your sarcasm is duly noted. I have nothing but respect for the COs I work with. Hope you have a better day at work tomorrow.
The point I was trying to make is simple. When I closed on my house the paperwork and procedures were somewhat confusing to me. I asked a lot of questions and my attorney did his best to make me understand everything I needed to, but by no stretch of the imagination did this make me an attorney, put me in a position to tell my attorney how to do his job, or actually do my attorney's job. AND I WAS THERE.
NONE of us were there on this felony stop. Who are we to pick this apart? A lot of you make some pretty ignorant assumptions based on what very little you know about this one call.
Answer these:
1)What kind of car were they in?
2)What exactly did the caller tell 911 he/she witnessed?
3)Was that information accurately/timely relayed to units?
4)Was DMV able to provide reg. info in a timely manner (this is more of a common problem than most of you would think)
5)Depending on #2 what would running the plate have accomplished?
6) where exactly did the stop take place, how much traffic/bystanders was there?
7) What were the lighting conditions?
8) how long did this stop take from start to finish?
9) what were the weather conditions
10) If the family was upset, how were they behaving/reacting?
MaterBlaster; your question "SO the SOP here when worried about hostages, and armed perps in the same car, is to yell over a bull horn get out one at a time while the cops are at a safe distance from the car???? and then take the time to handcuff each of the folks who got out, perp or victim??????"
The answer is "basically yes"
I've conducted felony stops (one with an armed hostage taker (gun),an accomplice and two hostages, that started with a 911 call from a third party, just as you described) and I assist in instructing them at the academy. A felony stop is not an investigation. straight from my SOPs - " the objective of a felony stop is to protect the lives of both the civilian and the officer. The officer's duty is to control the stop at all times without the threat of injury to himself or others, but be able to apply deadly force to the suspect if necessary" Most of them go well, some of them don't.. life ain't perfect, neither am I. Neither or you. And there are A LOT of other things going on during such stops for reasons it would take me hours to explain. That's why cops are trained at an academy. This isn't something you learn watching TV or surfing the net. Or working a cell block btw - KP95DOA
I don't know why the felony stop was called out, I don't know why the door wasn't shut, I don't know why someone forgot their wallet on the hood of their car/truck/van/suv, I don't know what the caller told 911, I don't know what 911 told the 1st dispatched officer and I don't know what he relayed to other officers on the scene. I also don't know any of the answers to the above questions. And I don't know what could have been done differently mainly because I wasn't there to see what was or wasn't done in the first place.
You know what people? Sometimes even when you do everything right, something goes wrong.
My two cents, keep the change.
cardboardkiller
Member
If you'll read my post again, that is exactly what I said, except for locking the door.
This remains the core question here. I'll keep asking it until it's answered (now asked twice here and 4 times on GlockTalk). I'm not an LEO so I need guidence.
ONCE THE BLUE LIGHTS CAME ON, HOW COULD THE SMOAK FAMILY HAVE PREVENTED THIS without DISOBEYING THE OFFICERS' INSTRUCTIONS AND RISKING PHYSICAL INJURY OR DEATH FROM THE POLICE OFFICERS???
ONCE THE BLUE LIGHTS CAME ON, HOW COULD THE SMOAK FAMILY HAVE PREVENTED THIS without DISOBEYING THE OFFICERS' INSTRUCTIONS AND RISKING PHYSICAL INJURY OR DEATH FROM THE POLICE OFFICERS???
cardboardkiller
Member
Sniper9,
Answer me this, I could care less about the weather conditions, the VIN number or even where the stop took place. Why wasn't the door closed? I don't buy the "in the heat of the moment" BS, supposedly cops are trained to act in situations way outside the ordinary. If these cops can't secure a car, you can't expect me to believe they didn't see the dogs in the car when they pulled the Smoaks over or while they were dragging them out of the car, how would they react in a situation where a perp was on the loose in a neighborhood or made it into someone's house where there were innocent bystanders?
I'm a part-time firefighter and I have to be on my guard at all times, regardless of what time it is, what the weather is doing, how much info and what type of info I was given about the call. If I couldn't keep my wits doing a job that on a daily basis that in my opinion is at least as dangerous if not more so than the average police officer faces everyday, I wouldn't have made it 7 years so far. You have to go into a situation expecting the worst, I'm not faulting the cops for that, but you must cover all you bases or you or someone else will end up dead, this is where the cops failed miserably.
Answer me this, I could care less about the weather conditions, the VIN number or even where the stop took place. Why wasn't the door closed? I don't buy the "in the heat of the moment" BS, supposedly cops are trained to act in situations way outside the ordinary. If these cops can't secure a car, you can't expect me to believe they didn't see the dogs in the car when they pulled the Smoaks over or while they were dragging them out of the car, how would they react in a situation where a perp was on the loose in a neighborhood or made it into someone's house where there were innocent bystanders?
I'm a part-time firefighter and I have to be on my guard at all times, regardless of what time it is, what the weather is doing, how much info and what type of info I was given about the call. If I couldn't keep my wits doing a job that on a daily basis that in my opinion is at least as dangerous if not more so than the average police officer faces everyday, I wouldn't have made it 7 years so far. You have to go into a situation expecting the worst, I'm not faulting the cops for that, but you must cover all you bases or you or someone else will end up dead, this is where the cops failed miserably.
Sniper9,
Some of the anti-LEO attitudes on this and just about every other gun board I've visited, bother me a LOT. I don't really understand them either, except that perhaps LEOs are the face some people put with laws they know are unfair, unjust, and just downright unConstitutional. Consequently, whenever something goes wrong, these ignorant people start shouting "Jack Booted Thugs" and all kinds of other epithets about ALL LEOs.
Some LEOs are jerks, just as some in any occupation you can find are, but the LEO bashers seem to have a peculiar animus toward all police, and that bothers and worries me.
Hope you'll stick around. You write well, and maybe you can help some of the folks around here.
BTW, this incident must have happened at night because of the flashlight angle. Smoaks said they played with the dog using a flashlight beam, etc. In that case, the LEOs closing the car door would have also turned off the interior light. Not a good thing for a felony stop in progress....
Some of the anti-LEO attitudes on this and just about every other gun board I've visited, bother me a LOT. I don't really understand them either, except that perhaps LEOs are the face some people put with laws they know are unfair, unjust, and just downright unConstitutional. Consequently, whenever something goes wrong, these ignorant people start shouting "Jack Booted Thugs" and all kinds of other epithets about ALL LEOs.
Some LEOs are jerks, just as some in any occupation you can find are, but the LEO bashers seem to have a peculiar animus toward all police, and that bothers and worries me.
Hope you'll stick around. You write well, and maybe you can help some of the folks around here.
BTW, this incident must have happened at night because of the flashlight angle. Smoaks said they played with the dog using a flashlight beam, etc. In that case, the LEOs closing the car door would have also turned off the interior light. Not a good thing for a felony stop in progress....
F4G1B,
The Smoaks could have prevented this simply by securing the dogs with their leashes just like they probably did dozens of times during their trip.
"But the dog, the big one, could have easily broken the leash and gotten out," you wail. If so, wouldn't the dog have then proven himself to be a dog that would have had to be shot when he did because attack would have been his mode?
The first cruiser followed the Smoaks for a long while before stopping them. They KNEW he was on THEIR case. They had plenty of time to secure the dogs then, and they had plenty of time to secure the dogs after the blue light special opened up. Smoaks wasn't ordered out of the car instantly. He had time to mess with his keys and discover his wallet wasn't there. How much time does it take to "Put the leash on General Patton" anyway?
Are you assuming that the Smoaks traveled from NC to TN without ever having to let the dogs out? If not, they surely must have had leashes, ropes, etc., to maintain control of the dogs and comply with the ubiquitous leash laws, doncha think?
The Smoaks could have prevented this simply by securing the dogs with their leashes just like they probably did dozens of times during their trip.
"But the dog, the big one, could have easily broken the leash and gotten out," you wail. If so, wouldn't the dog have then proven himself to be a dog that would have had to be shot when he did because attack would have been his mode?
The first cruiser followed the Smoaks for a long while before stopping them. They KNEW he was on THEIR case. They had plenty of time to secure the dogs then, and they had plenty of time to secure the dogs after the blue light special opened up. Smoaks wasn't ordered out of the car instantly. He had time to mess with his keys and discover his wallet wasn't there. How much time does it take to "Put the leash on General Patton" anyway?
I gotta comment directly to all LEO defenders of this mess (drat!):
The ONLY reason police/John Q. Public interactions are not Dodge City is because we put our TRUST in what you and the badge represent. You are the only ones we allow to violate our most precious right of freedom. We do not have a say in your felony stop procedures, and to quote Sniper9:
"The officer's duty is to control the stop at all times without the threat of injury to himself or others, but be able to apply deadly force to the suspect if necessary"
We allow you to "get the drop on us" willingly with the understanding that as innocent US citizens we have nothing to fear. We don't need to really worry that Ma and Pa Kettle may profile like serial snipers because we are innocent. All the details of what YOU could be facing are not an issue here. That is up to procedures and training. These failed miserably. We are obedient and as F4GIB questioned, what could we have realistically done different without you applying deadly force? You were given control of the situation at gunpoint. Each generation, the respect for the badge is being augmented by bigger and bigger doses of fear of the badge. In return, the uniform is being supplemented by better and better body armor and better equiped SWAT teams. See a relationship? Do you teach those officers on the scene to keep their fingers out of the trigger guard? Are they fired or retrained if they violate that? There are some similarities to current LEO development and some pretty scary historical police states. You are still a civilian force. Do you have a them and us attitude? Absolutely no personal attack in any of this, but the emphasis in some of the allegedly LEO replies seems very off the mark.
The ONLY reason police/John Q. Public interactions are not Dodge City is because we put our TRUST in what you and the badge represent. You are the only ones we allow to violate our most precious right of freedom. We do not have a say in your felony stop procedures, and to quote Sniper9:
"The officer's duty is to control the stop at all times without the threat of injury to himself or others, but be able to apply deadly force to the suspect if necessary"
We allow you to "get the drop on us" willingly with the understanding that as innocent US citizens we have nothing to fear. We don't need to really worry that Ma and Pa Kettle may profile like serial snipers because we are innocent. All the details of what YOU could be facing are not an issue here. That is up to procedures and training. These failed miserably. We are obedient and as F4GIB questioned, what could we have realistically done different without you applying deadly force? You were given control of the situation at gunpoint. Each generation, the respect for the badge is being augmented by bigger and bigger doses of fear of the badge. In return, the uniform is being supplemented by better and better body armor and better equiped SWAT teams. See a relationship? Do you teach those officers on the scene to keep their fingers out of the trigger guard? Are they fired or retrained if they violate that? There are some similarities to current LEO development and some pretty scary historical police states. You are still a civilian force. Do you have a them and us attitude? Absolutely no personal attack in any of this, but the emphasis in some of the allegedly LEO replies seems very off the mark.
cardboardkiller
Member
How do know that they had anything to secure the dogs to? Short of putting the leash on my dog and then running the seatbelt through it I can't think of another way to secure a dog in a car. What if they were in the back of a station wagon or SUV? Should the 17 year old jumped into the cargo area and tied the dogs to whatever there might be back there? You think the cops were agitated before the car even pulled over, just wait until they see a body digging around in the rear of a vehicle. The Smoaks probably had no idea they would even be asked to get out of the car, much less ordered out and handcuffed at gunpoint.
The last thing I am going to do when pulled over is move until the cop gets to the door and tells me what he wants. But the first thing I am going to do if I have to get out of the car is make sure that the officer knows that I have a dog in the car, if he is dumb enough not to see her, and that I need to shut the door so as to protect him from my dog and myself and her from whatever fit the cop my fly into if my dog turns into a .45 on legs. My dog has been personal protection trained and I have had to inform more than one person of that as they approached the car without my consent.
The average person is ignorant enough about dogs, but you would think that an LEO would have slightly more sense, I guess not.
The last thing I am going to do when pulled over is move until the cop gets to the door and tells me what he wants. But the first thing I am going to do if I have to get out of the car is make sure that the officer knows that I have a dog in the car, if he is dumb enough not to see her, and that I need to shut the door so as to protect him from my dog and myself and her from whatever fit the cop my fly into if my dog turns into a .45 on legs. My dog has been personal protection trained and I have had to inform more than one person of that as they approached the car without my consent.
The average person is ignorant enough about dogs, but you would think that an LEO would have slightly more sense, I guess not.
Cardboardkiller - I don't know why the door wasn't shut and neither do you, or anyone else on this thread b/c none of us were there! If you think the "heat of the moment" thing is BS (your words) then perhaps your a better man than I. I can tell countless first hand stories regarding tunnel-vision and adrenalin rushes and their effects during pursuits, disturbances, hostage situations, v&t stops, felony stops, fights, warrant executions, and yes even fires. I've been a full-time cop for over 7 yrs, a swat sniper & evoc instructor. I am currently assigned to the warrants investigation unit, executing felony warrants on a daily basis. I know a little bit.
F4GIB - The answer you're looking for is - short of securing their dogs prior to being stopped, probably nothing. Life isn't perfect.
Anyone ever wonder why Doctors say they are "practicing" medicine? The same reason we are practicing law...it takes a lot of practice.
Good day gentlemen...
F4GIB - The answer you're looking for is - short of securing their dogs prior to being stopped, probably nothing. Life isn't perfect.
Anyone ever wonder why Doctors say they are "practicing" medicine? The same reason we are practicing law...it takes a lot of practice.
Good day gentlemen...
Zak Smith
Member
Sniper9,
I, for one, and probably others here, do not necessarily question the tactics used on this felony stop. I'm not a tactics expert and don't pretend to be in this argument. As I think Blackhawk said, once the LEOs and Smoaks were on the scene and were "dealt their cards", it pretty much had to turn out how it did. Whether or not someone could have closed a door or tethered their dog, or if the second Smoak's car could have stopped by and said "What's going on officer, those are my kids!" is minutia compared to the problem posed here.
However, I object strongly to two things relating to how it came to start there:
1. That it was a felony stop. Where's the felony, again? Whoever "promoted" this incident to a felony stop was responsible for the high level of force employed. These are essentially the people who "gave the orders."
2. That the LEOs responding did not personally ensure that their use of force was justified. Even though they were ordered to do so, the officers have responsibility to make sure what they're doing is justified. "Following orders" doesn't cut it.
To make an analogy to one of our favorite topics: no-knock raids. It doesn't matter if 100% perfect entry tactics were employed during a no-knock, if you hit the wrong house. In that scenario, everyone in the chain of command that brought it about must be held accountable.
-z
I, for one, and probably others here, do not necessarily question the tactics used on this felony stop. I'm not a tactics expert and don't pretend to be in this argument. As I think Blackhawk said, once the LEOs and Smoaks were on the scene and were "dealt their cards", it pretty much had to turn out how it did. Whether or not someone could have closed a door or tethered their dog, or if the second Smoak's car could have stopped by and said "What's going on officer, those are my kids!" is minutia compared to the problem posed here.
However, I object strongly to two things relating to how it came to start there:
1. That it was a felony stop. Where's the felony, again? Whoever "promoted" this incident to a felony stop was responsible for the high level of force employed. These are essentially the people who "gave the orders."
2. That the LEOs responding did not personally ensure that their use of force was justified. Even though they were ordered to do so, the officers have responsibility to make sure what they're doing is justified. "Following orders" doesn't cut it.
To make an analogy to one of our favorite topics: no-knock raids. It doesn't matter if 100% perfect entry tactics were employed during a no-knock, if you hit the wrong house. In that scenario, everyone in the chain of command that brought it about must be held accountable.
-z
TheeBadOne
Member
This has gone way past trying to make it simple. The same questions have been asked and answered a dozen times over. People who are entrenched in a stance don't want to be dug out. Here is one last attempt to add a bit of clarity to calls like this.
Stop being hung up on the Felony stop. (Because all we get are, "Where's the Felony"). The term Felony stop is not accurate anyhow, it's just a short cut in terms to get people to understand how serious a stop is taken.
The correct term is High Risk Traffic Stop. As this designates, the stop is either of a know high risk situation (ie: felony) or has sufficent circumstances, both known and unknown to warrant causion. With all the info both given and missing a High Risk Traffic stop was warranted. Peace
Stop being hung up on the Felony stop. (Because all we get are, "Where's the Felony"). The term Felony stop is not accurate anyhow, it's just a short cut in terms to get people to understand how serious a stop is taken.
The correct term is High Risk Traffic Stop. As this designates, the stop is either of a know high risk situation (ie: felony) or has sufficent circumstances, both known and unknown to warrant causion. With all the info both given and missing a High Risk Traffic stop was warranted. Peace
Zak Smith
Member
It's not called a "Felony Stop"? Okay.
The jist of our objection is the same: severe escalation of force due to poor and unsubstantiated information.
-z
The jist of our objection is the same: severe escalation of force due to poor and unsubstantiated information.
-z
cardboardkiller
Member
Sniper9,
I guess my time on duty hasn't been as long as yours, but I'll wager rescuing a womans baby from a burning house and getting it outside only to have its head fall off or dragging one of my fellow firefighters out after the ceiling had fallen on him and knocked him unconscious while a third of the house collapsed behind us or venting a roof and having a geyser of flame shoot out of the whirly-bird behind me melt the letters off of my coat, from some chemicals stored in the attic or when I broke 2 ribs wrestling down a roofers propane bottle that had blown its relief valve and threatened to take my partner and I off of a 2nd story roof are a good deal more exciting than your average civil servant endures. I can give you first hand accounts and war stories, that all involve something unpredictable, dangerous, that can't be reasoned with and doesn't fear a badge. During all this and more than a few others I did one thing, I kept my head and everyone that was alive and with me stayed alive and with me.
I guess my time on duty hasn't been as long as yours, but I'll wager rescuing a womans baby from a burning house and getting it outside only to have its head fall off or dragging one of my fellow firefighters out after the ceiling had fallen on him and knocked him unconscious while a third of the house collapsed behind us or venting a roof and having a geyser of flame shoot out of the whirly-bird behind me melt the letters off of my coat, from some chemicals stored in the attic or when I broke 2 ribs wrestling down a roofers propane bottle that had blown its relief valve and threatened to take my partner and I off of a 2nd story roof are a good deal more exciting than your average civil servant endures. I can give you first hand accounts and war stories, that all involve something unpredictable, dangerous, that can't be reasoned with and doesn't fear a badge. During all this and more than a few others I did one thing, I kept my head and everyone that was alive and with me stayed alive and with me.
Zak Smith
Member
Why not execute a "High Risk Traffic Stop" for every traffic stop? How about every time an Officer contacts any citizen? (Surely it would make it safer for the LEOs, right?)
But we don't. Do we not do so at the pleasure of Law Enforcement, or do we not do so because it is a violation of rights and an offense to freedom?
If it is the former, then the police are free to bring to bear any level of force anytime they please - in short, a police state.
If it is the latter, then that violation of rights and freedom must be justified - based on something the person actually did. In this case, there was no evidence of any wrong-doing by the Smoaks, only the assumption of a hypothesis by some random person on the freeway.
-z
But we don't. Do we not do so at the pleasure of Law Enforcement, or do we not do so because it is a violation of rights and an offense to freedom?
If it is the former, then the police are free to bring to bear any level of force anytime they please - in short, a police state.
If it is the latter, then that violation of rights and freedom must be justified - based on something the person actually did. In this case, there was no evidence of any wrong-doing by the Smoaks, only the assumption of a hypothesis by some random person on the freeway.
-z
ravinraven
Member
grweat case for the ACLU
Gee. This out of control cop thing is a great case for the ACLU. No. Sorry. Guess not. The ACLU is too dam busy with its war on Christmas and with enabling perverts to publish books on how to molest your kids. Guess you'll just have to grin and forget it.
[ACLU = American Constitutional Liberty Underminers]
Gee. This out of control cop thing is a great case for the ACLU. No. Sorry. Guess not. The ACLU is too dam busy with its war on Christmas and with enabling perverts to publish books on how to molest your kids. Guess you'll just have to grin and forget it.
[ACLU = American Constitutional Liberty Underminers]
The mental gymnastics that some of the people on this thread are going through to place even one iota of the blame for this incident on the family is truly amazing to witness.
'Negligence contributions'??!! Close the door? And risk being shot for the 'furtive movement'? Sounds like a great idea. Leash the dogs inside the car? And what? Tie them to headrests? Why? In anticipation of being removed from the vehicle at gunpoint and cuffed? You have got to be kidding me.
It is not the citizens responsibility to prepare for interaction with law enforcement. Law enforcement is NOT the POINT of society. We do not structure our lives around avoiding or preparing for contact with the police.
It disturbs me to no end to hear people defending the actions of these officers. It is equally disturbing to hear people paint those who are disgusted with the conduct of these officers as 'anti-LEO'.
- Gabe
'Negligence contributions'??!! Close the door? And risk being shot for the 'furtive movement'? Sounds like a great idea. Leash the dogs inside the car? And what? Tie them to headrests? Why? In anticipation of being removed from the vehicle at gunpoint and cuffed? You have got to be kidding me.
It is not the citizens responsibility to prepare for interaction with law enforcement. Law enforcement is NOT the POINT of society. We do not structure our lives around avoiding or preparing for contact with the police.
It disturbs me to no end to hear people defending the actions of these officers. It is equally disturbing to hear people paint those who are disgusted with the conduct of these officers as 'anti-LEO'.
- Gabe
Personally, the JBT sobriquet would only apply to someone who seemed to get a thrill out of shooting a dog. I suspect it's a nice stand-in for a person. Perhaps he's one of those LEOs whose badge would be jeopardized by the Lautenberg domestic violence law, and rightly so. Even worse, a sadist and possible Ted Bundy type, only with a badge.
I'm quite bothered, by the same token, by these pro-LEO, blame-the-victim attitudes. Neither I, nor any other FREE CITIZEN, exist at the pleasure of, or to serve, LEOs (it is the other way around, for the most part, fundamentally). Hence, it isn't my job to ensure that these officers have a nice day or that I suffer being treated like a criminal to ensure their safety. They're big boys and know (or should know) what they're getting into.
If they can't perform their duties w/o trampling on the rights of others, then they should seek other employment, rather than bitch about low pay, the inherent dangers, and general lack of respect. I'd submit that you reap what you sow; treat the public with respect to get respect. I'd further posit that LEOs aren't entitled to any more respect than anyone else, unless they earn it. Going to the academy or local junior college doesn't constitute sufficient grounds for respect, in my book. Neither does the danger. I might as well genuflect before tightrope walkers, were that the case
Back to the incident, though. We can see that not a lot of thought went into making this stop. My question though, is couldn't the officers present have developed a little more strategy? When you have the victims...mmm..."suspects" in the car, couldn't a little brainstorming take place? Assuming the passengers weren't fidgeting and turning around inside the car, the cops have an automatic drop on them, since the Smoaks have their backs to the officers. Worst that could happen at this point is that the car takes off, unless the Smoaks are mutants with eyes in the back of their heads, or trick shots.
I agree somewhat with Sniper9 about not being there and the contributing conditions, but some common sense needs to be interspersed with procedure, and a little planning, with what would appear to be suspects making no overt and immediate threats, would go a long way, since action beats reaction.
Examples of common sense would include assessing the dog's body language, since this is highly ritualized among canines, as well as the type of dog involved (Do you use a 12ga. on a toy poodle, a puppy? What is the danger presented by these?). Somehow, bulldogs don't qualify for a high threat status in my eyes, and certainly not one that oleo-capiscum can't mitigate.
One might argue that this is bunk, but substitute "human" for "dog," and see if you get the same sort of support for being trigger-happy. Does a little old lady present the same threat as a 230lbs. muscular male, and should they be treated the same? Would you blow away grandma if her hearing aid was dead and she started towards you b/c she didn't hear the bullhorn?
Lastly, attitude is everything. Had the cops been apologetic about killing the dog, rather than smirking and giving high fives for turning "savage" General Patton's (even the name sounds dangerous
) head into doggy hamburger, I might understand the mistake, no matter how bone-headed. I suspect had the officer in question been a man and had gone to the family to apologize (not to mention the apologies owed the family by all LEOs involved), they just might have understood, to some extent.FWIW, if animals are only "property," then why the laws about cruelty? You can dispose of other property pretty much as you see fit, unless there is some danger involved. Why not animals, too? Why do they get status different from other property?
- Status