Felt Recoil .40 vs. .45

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Not in this context, which is between different caliber.

Within same caliber, then yes.

But, to say 40S&W has stronger recoil then 45ACP because it has higher pressure would mean 9mm would recoil stronger than 45ACP.

To many other factors involved. Such as the size of the bullet and the powder charge.

Recoil is basically Force

Force is Mass x acceleration (F=ma)

The example I gave used the same weight bullet (180gr) coming out of a 40 cal is a lot faster than a 180 gr coming out of a 45 ACP. In the same gun the recoil or force of the 40 is going to be greater.

Force is force regardless of the caliber.

Shoot a 158 gr bullet with a target load out of a alloy snub

Now shoot the same bullet with a +P powder charge like Buffalo Bore) and which has more recoil.??

Would you rather get shot with a 40 gr bullet from a 22LR or the same bullet from a 223 Rem/5.56?? (just an example not wishing that on anyone)
 
Very hard to answer. I agree most with "Mat, not Doormat". Most people make reference to the 40 being snappier than the 45 because the 40 was shot from lighter/polymer pistols; and the 45 is most often shot from heavier/steel pistols.

I used to own a Smith&Wesson mod 410 40cal all steel/metal pistol. Because it was heavier I never experienced the snappiness usually associated with the 40. Now my main auto is a Kimber 1911 in 45acp. My experience with the 40 now is with only with friends polymer 40's (Springfield XD's, Smith's M&P's, Glocks) and I feel that the 40 is snappier than the 45 and honestly has more recoil.

I would rather shoot my 1911 than all other auto's because of the better trigger and feel of the 1911. But it also is because of the recoil(which I don't mind at all). I will probably never own another 40 (unless I buy an all-steel/metal version). I can get on target faster with a 45 or 9 than a 40 and that is the main reason for not wanting another 40.
 
40's a bit snappy for me but to each their own. My 40 experience is from a friends full size Glock. I found it to be alot more snappy than had been predicting.
 
I've watched a bunch of the ballistic gel tests
the guy on tnoutdoors has done. He remarked
that with the 40 S&W the lighter the bullet
( & higher velocity) that the 155 gr. and lighter
are noticeably 'snappier' than even the 165 and the
180 gr. are more like a push/shove. and noted
the same for .45 ACP 230 gr. versus 185 gr.

The lighter bullets are leaving the muzzle quicker ergo 'snappier'

R-
 
Speed and Duration

How quickly peak recoil pressure is reached and the duration of recoil have much to do with what is perceived as a shove versus a slap. Granted these are both very short measurements in time for firearms but still perceivable.
 
Being a kahr shooter I find the 200gr 45 has a slower impulse and more of a push compared to a 165gr 40sw that has a harder quicker snap but with less push back
Its like shooting a 357 and 44 if both are in egual size revolvers.
 
In vaguely similar setups I think the .40 recoils a little bit more than a .45, and just like what has be said a bejilleon times, the .40 does have a little more of a "snap" to it, which is mostly a pressure thing. Depending on load, it can recoil noticeably more unless you load the .40 light then the .45 can recoil more.
 
I've had the chance to shoot some .40 and .45 back to back from 1911's. I found that the .40 has more snap to it than the .45. The .45 pushes a lot but it's more of a shove than a slap.
That's my experience, too. I can comfortably fire a couple of hundred rounds of .45 ACP, but that much .40 S&W is a little bit more fun than I can enjoy.
 
When I shoot my 180gr .40 S&W load from my 5" 1911 @950fps it sure feels like my 185gr .45 ACP load @930fps from any 5" 1911.

But shooting that same 180gr S&W load in my Glock 23 is much less pleasant. I would call it pretty snappy. Shooting that same .40 load in a steel 5" 1911 makes it a pussy cat.
 
Interesting posts and thoughts on the subject. Mat, your Glock comparison is very good and brings up another factor in the felt recoil equation: the velocity of the recoiling pistol. IMO this accounts for the "snappy" feel of the .40 and your math supports that the .40 can produce more felt recoil in similar guns.
 
While absolutely unscientific my observations are based on the following:
Witness full size 4.5" barrel .45 ACP (33 oz empty) 230gr Fiocchi fmj
Witness Match 4.75" barrel .40 S&W (33 oz empty) 180gr Fiocchi fmj

I fired the guns back to back in 10 round strings (max cap of .45) after 4 mags each I came to the following realization: if they weren't different colors I wouldn't have known what I was shooting...to test that I had my 72lb 12 year old daughter shoot them both (she fired 2 rounds from each .45 first) she said the .45 was a little harder.

That's about as equal a test as I could come up with. Thanks for the idea for the range today:)
 
In my experience it's always been more of the gun that dictates felt recoil than just the caliber itself. Weight, bore axis, locking system, grips, etc can all change how recoil feels. However, you can research for months and compare different formulas and theories but no matter what you find on paper, you will never be able to account for the wildcard...you

I would suggest locating the guns you're interested in at a range somewhere and try them out for yourself. I've had a few experiences when gun A should have less felt recoil than gun B (on paper), but the opposite happened when I tried them out
 
I shoot my Beretta Model 96 .40 S&W on a regular basis and don't really mind the recoil. Lot less than that of my buddies 1911 .45 auto.
 
I have shot 1000's more 45 than 40 but recently I had a chance to shoot 2 Kinber's. Both the same size gun and for me they like Taraqulan they were about the same but I shot the 45 better. That is no surprise but if I were to get another caliber it would be a 40
 
I've also put around 6K .45acp rounds down range. My son-in-law bought a Ruger .40, I found it to also have that "snappy" feel, hard to describe but noticeable. Keep in mind the the .45 runs about 5000 psi less.
 
To answer the question you actually asked, considering fairly standard loadings, ie 180 grains at 1050 fps for the .40 S&W, and 230 grains at 850 fps for the .45 ACP, when fired in identical guns, the .45 does indeed have more recoil, both on terms of total energy and speed.

Where it gets complicated is that you very rarely find them chambered in identical guns. Most modern guns are built in two frame sizes, 9 and 45. The 40's great claim to fame has always been that it gives nearly the power of the 45, but will fit in the 9 mm sized gun. At that point, it actually does have more felt recoil than the .45.

I'm no fan of the pocket rockets you mentioned, I think guns and cartridges should be proportionate to one another. So, when I decided to do the math and answer this question definitively, I used standard service pistols instead.

So, lets consider Glock. The standard sized Glock .40 is the G22. Fully loaded, it weighs 34.42 oz, and with the aforementioned standard load, delivers 6.44 ft/lbs of recoil, at 13.88 fps. The standard Glock .45, on the other hand is the G21, which bears a significant resemblance to a cinder block. It weighs 38.48 oz fully loaded, and delivers 6.12 ft/lbs of recoil at 12.8 fps. That's slightly milder than the smaller .40. To actually get the .40 in a gun the size of the G21, you would first buy a G20, and fit it with a .40 conversion barrel. If you did this, it would only smack your hand with 5.76 ft/lbs at 12.41 fps, which is milder than the equivalent .45.

Still another factor in explaining the .40's nasty reputation is that it's a fairly recent caliber. As such, its natural habitat is in modern, lightweight plastic pistols. The .45, on the other hand, is comparatively ancient. While all the major plastic pistols can be had in .45, it's natural habitat is the M1911, which is a big steel gun, admirably suited to controlling big bullets. It weighs 46.67 oz loaded, which brings the .45's recoil down to a mere 5.05 ft/ lbs, at 10.55 fps.

That's the comparison people usually wind up making, not the apples to apples of G21 vs converted G20. Not even the apples to oranges of G21 vs G22, but G22 vs 1911, which is more like apples to watermelons.
Thanks for these figures, Mat! The .40's recoil, while shooting my P229R duty pistol, is starting to really hurt my aging, ailing, formerly "strong" hand*. I was considering going back to a G22, to get a lower bore axis, and the cushioning effect of the polymer frame, but then my chief just authorized us to start using .45 ACP as an alternative duty pistol cartridge, in the G21, as well as some SIG models and the S&W M&P45. (Our duty cartridge for uniformed personnel had been the .40 since 1997, until last month.)

I had been told that a G21 recoiled less sharply than a G22, but I wanted to find some numbers to verify that. You have just provided the numbers, and I am grateful. I would rather not switch duty pistols in the twilight of my LE career, especially as we buy our own duty firearms, but this may be a long twilight, and even a small bit of relief may be cumulatively significant.

*I am not blaming the .40 for causing my problems; if shooting is a factor, and it probably is, then those .44 and .41 Magnums I fired in the 1980s played the larger part.
 
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Thanks for these figures, Mat! The .40's recoil, while shooting my P229R duty pistol, is starting to really hurt my aging, ailing, formerly "strong" hand*. I was considering going back to a G22, to get a lower bore axis, and the cushioning effect of the polymer frame, but then my chief just authorized us to start using .45 ACP as an alternative duty pistol cartridge, in the G21, as well as some SIG models and the S&W M&P45. (Our duty cartridge for uniformed personnel had been the .40 since 1997, until last month.)

I had been told that a G21 recoiled less sharply than a G22, but I wanted to find some numbers to verify that. You have just provided the numbers, and I am grateful. I would rather not switch duty pistols in the twilight of my LE career, especially as we buy our own duty firearms, but this may be a long twilight, and even a small bit of relief may be cumulatively significant.

*I am not blaming the .40 for causing my problems; if shooting is a factor, and it probably is, then those .44 and .41 Magnums I fired in the 1980s played the larger part.

Rexster, I'm glad you found my numbers helpful. If you don't mind, I'll offer a few more to help put them in perspective for you. I'm not all that familiar with the Sig lineup, and am not really sure what the R model is, so I crunched the numbers for a standard P229. It weighs, with its alloy frame, 39.6 oz, loaded. With the same generic .40 cal load from the other post, 180 @ 1050, that gives, 5.61 ft/lbs of recoil at 12.09 fps. That means that while a G21 does indeed recoil about 5% less than a G22, it actually kicks about 8% harder than the standard P229.

As for the low bore axis, while that does reduce muzzle flip for a given amount of recoil, it does so by directing it into, instead of over, your hands. Less motion but more shock, if you will. Not knowing your hands, I don't know which you'd prefer to avoid.

Another consideration you mentioned was the cushioning effect of a polymer frame. In physical terms, that doesn't alter the total amount of force that gets transferred to your hands, but it does spread the impulse out in time slightly, thus lessening the peak force. I don't really know how to put a number on that effect, but I don't think it would come anywhere close to making up for the higher total energy.

Another factor is the size of the grip. A fatter grip would spread the force over a wider area, thus reducing the force at any one point, much like the snowshoe effect. Grips don't really come much fatter than a G21. I suspect that would have more effect than the flexing of the frame, but I still don't think it's enough to make up for the higher total.

For a real, significant reduction in recoil, your two best bets are to use either a lighter load in the same gun, or the same load in a heavier gun.

For example, Federal makes a reduced recoil loading for the .40 S&W, with a 135 grain bullet @ 1200 fps. That's a much lighter bullet going a little faster. Fired from a standard P229, that gives 4.24 ft/lbs of recoil, at 10.53 fps. That's a whopping 24% less than the genetic load I've been figuring with so far.

The two flies in that ointment, of course, are whether or not your chief would permit you to use less powerful ammunition, and whether said ammunition would be as effective, if you ever needed it.

The other option is a heavier gun. I noticed, as I was digging for specs, that Sig also makes a P229 with a stainless steel, instead of aluminum alloy, frame. That version weighs 49.6 oz loaded, and thus cuts the recoil of the standard load to 4.47 ft/lbs, at 9.63 fps, or a 20% reduction over the standard P229. That'd let you keep the same gear, manual of arms and training, too.

If you really wanted all the reduction get, you could use the light load in the heavy gun. That would get you down to 3.39 ft/lbs, at 8.39 fps, about 40% less than the standard setup.
 
I have the Gen4 G-22 and the Gen4 G-21. I regularly shoot WWB 165 gr. .40 S&W out of the 22, and WWB 230 gr. .45 ACP out of the 21. If I use the same grip & stance for each gun, the G-22 recoil will be "snappier" than the G-21 recoil. I think I shoot the 21 just a little more accurately than the 22, but the accuracy is still OK with the 22. I think the 21 might wind up being a little more reliable than the 22, but I will need to shoot at least another 500 rounds with the 21 to prove its reliability. The 22 is still very reliable. I would always choose the G-21 over the G-22, and in guns of the same make & size, I would rather have .45 ACP over .40 S&W, but I still like them both and plan on keeping both.
 
How quickly peak recoil pressure is reached and the duration of recoil have much to do with what is perceived as a shove versus a slap. Granted these are both very short measurements in time for firearms but still perceivable
Exactly. That is why competition shooters load for the type of recoil, snap vs. push vs. roll by varying the powder, and/or seating depth. Perceived recoil in terms of what you see and "feel' can be changed even when shooting the same bullet at the same velocity in the same pistol.

As far as .40 vs. .45, the perception of the .40 being snappier in most factory self defense loads is pretty much universal.
 
I shoot a S&W 625 and a Ruger Blackhawk both in 45ACP. Also shoot a Blackhawk and a Star M30 in 9mm. I don't know anything about how much the recoil is measured but I really don't feel much difference between any of them. Did shoot a friends 44mag revolver and it did have a bit more muzzle jump but the felt recoil wasn't much more the the 45 ACP's. None are uncomfortable.
 
I've had the chance to shoot some .40 and .45 back to back from 1911's. I found that the .40 has more snap to it than the .45. The .45 pushes a lot but it's more of a shove than a slap....

The higher peak pressure is going to support the slap aspect while the lower peak pressure and heavier bullet of the .45 suggests the "shove" aspect


To my mind, this is a PERFECT explanation of the felt difference between .40 and .45acp. Very good, BCRider. My experience is mostly with my CZ40P and my Taurus PT145, but I think it would apply to my other .40's and .45's as well. And if you were to do an apples to apples comparison between two Millennium Pros or CZ's in .40 vs. .45, my guess is the results would be the same.

In fact, I've decided that when my kids grow up enough to try these larger calibers, I'd be more likely to start my (more timid) daughter with a .45 than a .40.

Having said that, it's not a "day and night" difference. Neither are what I'd call unpleasant.
 
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