FFL sellling at out-of-State gun shows

[Ryanxia]

Wondering if anyone can shed some light on this. My friend (FFL) was told by the ATF that he cannot legally setup at an out-of-State event (such as a gun show) and sell firearms (even long guns). They even told him he can't setup and just transfer the firearm through an in-state FFL at the show either, the guns would have to be logged into that FFL's books prior to the show starting. It sounds like BS to me but they're the ones running the show unfortunately.

However, going to a huge 1,500 table gun show last year there were dozens of FFL's that travel from other States to setup there and list the gun show location on their forms and haven't had any issues. Anyone aware of anything 'official' regarding this?

Thanks.

 

[hk940]

Sounds like BS to me also. My good friend was a FFL dealer and we did shows all over PA (where he had his license) a pistol going to an out state buyer had to go to the buyers state FFL. but a long gun could sold to an out state buyer as long as the gun was legal in his state.
I bought a rifle from a dealer in NY state when I lived in NJ!

 

[12Bravo20]

Here is what the ATF state on their website: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/what-may-licensee-do-out––state-gun-show

What may a licensee do at an out–of–State gun show?​

A licensee may only display and take orders for firearms at an out–of–State gun show. In filling any orders for firearms, the licensee must return the firearms to his or her licensed premises and deliver them from that location. Any firearm ordered by a nonlicensee must be delivered or shipped from the licensee’s premises to a licensee in the purchaser’s State of residence, and the purchaser must obtain the firearm from the licensee located in the purchaser’s State. A licensee is prohibited from transferring firearms to another licensee at an out–of–State gun show, except where the firearm being transferred is a curio or relic.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(1), (b)(3), 923(a) and (j); 27 CFR 478.100]

And more information from here:

https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-27/chapter-II/subchapter-B/part-478

§ 478.100 Conduct of business away from licensed premises.​

(a)
(1) A licensee may conduct business temporarily at a gun show or event as defined in paragraph
(b) if the gun show or event is located in the same State specified on the license: Provided, That such business shall not be conducted from any motorized or towed vehicle. The premises of the gun show or event at which the licensee conducts business shall be considered part of the licensed premises. Accordingly, no separate fee or license is required for the gun show or event locations. However, licensees shall comply with the provisions of § 478.91 relating to posting of licenses (or a copy thereof) while conducting business at the gun show or event.
(2) A licensed importer, manufacturer, or dealer may engage in the business of dealing in curio or relic firearms with another licensee at any location.
(b) A gun show or an event is a function sponsored by any national, State, or local organization, devoted to the collection, competitive use, or other sporting use of firearms, or an organization or association that sponsors functions devoted to the collection, competitive use, or other sporting use of firearms in the community.
(c) Licensees conducting business at locations other than the premises specified on their license under the provisions of paragraph (a) of this section shall maintain firearms records in the form and manner prescribed by subpart H of this part. In addition, records of firearms transactions conducted at such locations shall include the location of the sale or other disposition, be entered in the acquisition and disposition records of the licensee, and retained on the premises specified on the license.

 

[dogtown tom]

Wondering if anyone can shed some light on this. My friend (FFL) was told by the ATF that he cannot legally setup at an out-of-State event (such as a gun show) and sell firearms (even long guns). They even told him he can't setup and just transfer the firearm through an in-state FFL at the show either, the guns would have to be logged into that FFL's books prior to the show starting. It sounds like BS to me but they're the ones running the show unfortunately.

ATF even has a handy brochure: https://www.atf.gov/file/56651/download

However, going to a huge 1,500 table gun show last year there were dozens of FFL's that travel from other States to setup there and list the gun show location on their forms and haven't had any issues. Anyone aware of anything 'official' regarding this?

An FFL can display, take orders, collect payment and buy all the guns he wants......he just cannot transfer a firearm to another FFL UNLESS it's a Curio & Relic eligible firearm.

It isn't new, it's been this way since 1968.

 

[dogtown tom]

Sounds like BS to me also. My good friend was a FFL dealer and we did shows all over PA (where he had his license) a pistol going to an out state buyer had to go to the buyers state FFL. but a long gun could sold to an out state buyer as long as the gun was legal in his state.
I bought a rifle from a dealer in NY state when I lived in NJ!

What you describe is not at all the same situation.

 

[Ryanxia]

Thank you for the responses, they were very helpful.

 

[AlexanderA]

Here is what the ATF state on their website: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/what-may-licensee-do-out––state-gun-show

A licensee may only display and take orders for firearms at an out–of–State gun show. In filling any orders for firearms, the licensee must return the firearms to his or her licensed premises and deliver them from that location. Any firearm ordered by a nonlicensee must be delivered or shipped from the licensee’s premises to a licensee in the purchaser’s State of residence, and the purchaser must obtain the firearm from the licensee located in the purchaser’s State. A licensee is prohibited from transferring firearms to another licensee at an out–of–State gun show, except where the firearm being transferred is a curio or relic.​

It isn't new, it's been this way since 1968.

This may be a situation where the actual practice differs from the official guidance.

I've commonly encountered the following at large local gun shows:

1. An out-of-state dealer sells a gun (including a handgun) to an in-state resident. The gun is first transferred to an in-state dealer at the show, who runs it through his books and conducts the background check. These are two transactions: FFL to FFL (out-of-state dealer to in-state dealer), and then in-state FFL to local resident.

2. An out-of-state dealer sells a long gun to an in-state resident. The sale is handled as if it took place at the out-of-state dealer's licensed premises, including calling in the background check to the dealer's home state.

Such transactions may be illegal, but it would be hard for the ATF to enforce the rule unless it runs a sting operation, or has agents witnessing these things directly. The paper trail looks kosher on its face.

 

[12Bravo20]

A licensee may only display and take orders for firearms at an out–of–State gun show. In filling any orders for firearms, the licensee must return the firearms to his or her licensed premises and deliver them from that location. Any firearm ordered by a nonlicensee must be delivered or shipped from the licensee’s premises to a licensee in the purchaser’s State of residence, and the purchaser must obtain the firearm from the licensee located in the purchaser’s State. A licensee is prohibited from transferring firearms to another licensee at an out–of–State gun show, except where the firearm being transferred is a curio or relic.​

This may be a situation where the actual practice differs from the official guidance.

I've commonly encountered the following at large local gun shows:

1. An out-of-state dealer sells a gun (including a handgun) to an in-state resident. The gun is first transferred to an in-state dealer at the show, who runs it through his books and conducts the background check. These are two transactions: FFL to FFL (out-of-state dealer to in-state dealer), and then in-state FFL to local resident.

2. An out-of-state dealer sells a long gun to an in-state resident. The sale is handled as if it took place at the out-of-state dealer's licensed premises, including calling in the background check to the dealer's home state.

Such transactions may be illegal, but it would be hard for the ATF to enforce the rule unless it runs a sting operation, or has agents witnessing these things directly. The paper trail looks kosher on its face.

And those FFL holders ar e NOT following the regulations. The ATF makes it clear in the link I provides as does the actual Federal Regulation I also linked to. This has been the regulations since the passage of the Gun Control Act of 1968

 

[12Bravo20]

And here is what the brochure that dogtown tom linked to above has to say.

FFLs Not Licensed Within the State
Must comply with all ATF recordkeeping requirements concerning the acquisition of firearms.
May acquire firearms from any FFL licensed within the State and from any non-licensed individual, provided all recordkeeping requirements are met.
May make a transfer of a firearm only when the firearm is a curio or relic and the transferee is an FFL licensed in any State, as long as there is compliance with the laws of both States, and all recordkeeping requirements are met.
May ship curio or relic firearms to any other FFL.
May display and take orders.
Cannot transfer a firearm to an unlicensed
person.

The laws are not hard to understand especially when the specific information has been given along with the correct links to said information.

 

[dogtown tom]

​

This may be a situation where the actual practice differs from the official guidance.

I've commonly encountered the following at large local gun shows:

1. An out-of-state dealer sells a gun (including a handgun) to an in-state resident. The gun is first transferred to an in-state dealer at the show, who runs it through his books and conducts the background check. These are two transactions: FFL to FFL (out-of-state dealer to in-state dealer), and then in-state FFL to local resident.

2. An out-of-state dealer sells a long gun to an in-state resident. The sale is handled as if it took place at the out-of-state dealer's licensed premises, including calling in the background check to the dealer's home state.

Such transactions may be illegal, but it would be hard for the ATF to enforce the rule unless it runs a sting operation, or has agents witnessing these things directly. The paper trail looks kosher on its face.

I commonly encounter speeders and red light runners, that doesn't make it any less legal just because its common.
Being that regulations require a licensee to post a copy of his FFL at his premises as well as at gun shows, its pretty easy for a casual observer to see which out of state dealers are violating the law.

And #2? Thats a flat out felony and would show on the 4473 where the sale occurred. Licensees are required to note the name of the gun show and the city, state. Sure, any dealer stupid enough to risk selling at an out of state gun show probably wouldn't worry about falsifying a few 4473's.

And unlike speeders and red light runners, these types of violations are felonies if ATF wants them to be.