Fighting Bowie Knives and the Brass Strip

[hso]

To me, if one plans on ordering a custom Bowie as a pure fighter today, it only makes sense to order one with the brass strip and a generous guard given that it does not add appreciably to the bulk of the knife and gives you an unconventional capability against longer implements that might be used to attack you (e.g., length of pipe, clubs, machettes, etc.).

What do my fellow High Roaders think?

- Anthony

Nope

There is no such thing as a "conventional" Bowie in the historical sense. Bowies became popularized and were produced in a huge range of styles. The one you describe is only one of these styles.

As to the idea that "the brass strip and a generous guard" doesn't add appreciably to the bulk of a knife, I can't agree. A large guard provides greater hand protection, but adds overall weight to the knife. If properly balanced it doesn't impede wrist action, but it will slow arm movement, especially direction change, due to the greater momentum the weight provides. The large guard makes carry more difficult and moves the large guard Bowie into the pure weapon category and even into the specialized category of battlefield or duel. As to the brass strip it adds weight to the blade forcing more weight the be added to the pomel to balance and thereby inceases overall weight.

In today's fighting environment I would rather have ease of carry and speed over the American short sword you've described.

 

[ocelot777]

blade catching

Interesting thread guys.

I've always assumed that the brass/copper strip was to trap a blade or, more precisely, stop the edge of your oppponent's blade sliding down the spine of your blade -- even if only momentarily. This would be sort of similar to those 15/16 century 'sword-breaking' daggers, with barbed teeth on the spine, though clearly a little bit less obvious, less tenacious if a blade was actually trapped and leaving the blade more versatile all round. (Incidentally, I think it would be very difficult to break a blade with one these old, rather 'gimmicky' daggers -- think of the strength of wrist that would be required. This would apply to 'jitte' too I think -- anyway, would you like to try and trap an o-menouchi in one of those lil ol' things?)

Would this strip thing be helpful? I think it would be if you had a few techniques that exploited this possibility (and, ideally, your opponent was not too observant and/or experienced). On the other hand, in kendo there are some techniques that rely on this blade-sliding (tsuriage for instance) and that clearly would be very effective in any sort of sword-play with cutting weapons and strokes and that might have application in a knife-fight.

Having said that, I would imagine (I've only been in one knife-fight and there was only one knife -- it wasn't a duel) that you wouldn't really want deliberately to parry a cut or thrust when avoidance would be safer and probably easier . . .

Anyway, I reckon that ferocity (duly tempered by experience and some basic technique), 'taking the pain' and a non-specialised,sharp reliable weapon are probably the cruciaal determinants (after good fortune of course).

All opinion of course . . .

 

[mete]

This is very interesting but the original Bowie was not a fighting knife .There is documentation that proves that the original was just a large hunting knife !!Most of the later ones were made in Europe , mostly Sheffield Eng. But don't let me stop you , fight on !!

 

[ocelot777]

driftin' away . . .

sorry, what was the question?

I love this forum!

On the history front, my two penn'orth is that no-one can know (barring some new and irrefutable archaeology), but that's no reason to stop guessing!

I, personally and me myself and I think that Jim Bowie used big knives of several patterns (clip-point, Green-River, . . . errrrrr . . .) because they all work well in many contexts and were available and he probably was a practical, violent man who would have stabbed you in the eye with a stick if he thought it was a good idea.

No offence . . .

 

[Skofnung]

I'm certainly no expert on this subject...

But I have given it some thought.

First and foremost, I strongly doubt that there were many bowie "duels" that involved parrying ala fencing. I was not there, so I can't be sure, but come on... the object of knife fighting is to stick the other guy without getting stuck. Most woodcuts and prints that I have seen of knife fights from the middle ages up to after the Civil War show men grappling with blades, not facing off en'garde. It was likley used just like the seax it was decended from.

I'm not saying that it didn't ever happen but if it did, it was likley rare.

America needed a sword myth. Europe had it's Arthur and Excaliber, the Far East had Samurai, the Near East had the Prophet and dul'al'Farquar. We got Jim Bowie and his knife.

As to brass on the backstrap, I can't see it doing anything but getting in the way. Cut through anything thicker than the blade is wide, and the folded over brass would snag and stop the cut. An early example of tacticool indeed.

Just my opinion.

 

[hso]

This is very interesting but the original Bowie was not a fighting knife .There is documentation that proves that the original was just a large hunting knife !!Most of the later ones were made in Europe , mostly Sheffield Eng. But don't let me stop you , fight on !!

Well, kinda. Yes, the original knife used almost certainly wasn't a purpose built fighter, but from there we can't say much about what it was. See, there isn't much in the way of any reliable historical documentation of the knife used in the Sandbar Fight. What "documentation" there is is less than rock solid so there is no 'proof' of any description of the knife Jim Bowie used to prevail over his opponenets. The earliest newspaper article describes the knife as a large knife suitable for butchering, but for the time that could have been any of 3 different styles. Further accounts after the fight describe what could be considered today as similar to a large elongated French chef's knife. This is known as a mediteranian dirk (yes, single edge). The big clip point that most people think of when they saw the Iron Mistress occurs after the Bowie becomes mythical and marketing takes over. The eastern press and knife manufacturers certainly saw the opportunity and since everyone wanted such a mythical knife the sprung into action to meet the demand in both print and steel.

Many "Bowie" knives were produce by Sheffield makers, even spawning a whole subcategory of "Sheffield Bowies", but Sheffield was not the only blade making center to take advantage of the demand. Knives from Germany and Spain were imported to slake the thirst for Bowies while American makers in the east and California made knives for an imanginative public.

If you want to read articles by what pass for authoritative knife historians and Bowie enthusiasts I suggest you pull the past 2 years of Blade and Knives Illustrated and check the series of Bowie articles.

 

[darkmemory]

bowie

I have read your messages and found them interesting and imformative.
The brass clip may be no more than something that distinguishes their brand of bowie from others. There is no use dwelling on it. If you discover who made it, makes inquiries on their procedure and traits.
No one knows for sure except the man that made it.
As far as the knife or the knife fighter, Jim Bowie. It is probably best to forget everything you know and look at the basics. Most of what people learn is hollywood, or lore. Research from battlefields show that most of the wounds by sword, axes or knives were on legs and arms. As far as parrying or fast movement with heavy weapons (even long knives or short swords), such can tire a person quickly and weaken their blade. A knife fight is usually lost, not won. It means the fight is determined by the person that made the first error.
Jim Bowie was born in Kentucky and raised in Louisiana. He probably learned his fighting techniques from the streets (almost like brawling). he might parry a knife, but the blade is a hard target, best go for the arm. The opponent will bleed out or could lose his weapon. Also, you don't want to over extend yourself and leave youself open, or waste your energy. I think the best idea is to watch Ultimate Fighting Championship, without time limitation. How they test each other with some feints, but most of most of the movements are economical.
You can sometimes tell the type of fighter by the shape of the blade (thruster or slasher) and what areas he will attack. pointed blades are usually thrusters, with some slashing. they will try to thrust the into the main body.

A heavy blade is usually a slasher (the weight allows it more damage and can also break bones). they arent usually razor sharp. They cause tearing and breaking wounds, when slashing. And razor edges dull quickly.
Now, looking at the blade.
It was described as big butcher knife by those that saw it. So lets start there.
The butcher knife has long blade for reach and does great hacking/slashing damage. It is also scary. It's blade is thick, so it is less likely to break if it gets stuck between bones.
The tip was modified to allow back slashing. This gives a person an advantage of catching an opponent off guard and attacking him from an additional angle. good for street style fighting.
The tip also allowed the blade to cut two ways as it enters the body. The top of the blade, if hooked shape, will create a tearing wound (can't heal so easily) and it can catch internal organs and tear (for disemboweling an opponent). It wasn't meant to go too deep, just enoug to slash the insides.

Think about the people that developed, and used the knife. That will tell you where they learned their style. Then think about the knife. The blade length and shape. that will tell you what they style is.

 

[Mike Sastre]

From conversations with Bill Bagwell and James Keating, my understanding of the function of the brass strip is to absorb the shock of blade to blade (or other hard objects) contact, without breaking the blade. This is one of the reasons Bagwell differentially tempers his blades. Edge and very tip are hard, and the "softest" part of the blade is the spine. I've got some video showing the different colors throughout one of his blades immediately after heat treating. HSO, remind me to show you that when I come down in the spring.

 

[Anthony]

Imagine my surprise...

...when seeing a notification on a thread I started four years ago!

(laughing)

Seriously, since that time I have been studying heavily in two blade centric martial arts...the Filipino arts of Kali and Modern Arnis. Further I have also been sampling the dedicated fighting Bowies of several Master Bladesmiths. Based on these experiences I have ordered a dedicated fighting Bowie from Jim Walker sporting an 11-inch blade, oval guard, nickel fittings, curved Sambar Stag handle, and a fully sharpened clip point. No brass strip is involved. Jim and I talked about this and came to the same conclusion Mr. Sastre just posted. The knife is scheduled to be delivered in September of this year.

 

[hso]

Welcome to THR darkmemory!

 

[Anthony]

No kidding!

(laughing)

 

[Slamfire]

Trying to parry a knife would get your fingers cut off.

I would think that you would want to keep your distance, keep your hands, face, and your body from getting hit.

Movie stuff looks good, but I will bet that a real knife fight was over quick. And if anything was parried, the fight devolved into the aforementioned grappling.

 

[Anthony]

Based on my Kali experience that would depend on your opponent, his skill level, weapon, etc.

Like many things in life...it just depends.

 

[hso]

Slamfire1,

You're attacker's goal is to do exactly what you're trying to avoid. Your choices are to parry, block or run. Each has it's disadvantages and advantages, but none of them guarnatee that you won't get cut.

I too would take an active defense approach having been trained in FMA and western fencing. I know that if my attacker is comited to killing or injuring me my only choice is to disable him as quickly as possible. If he is less than commited I can elect to stay out of range until his will fails him.

 

[Anthony]

Agreed, HSO.

 

[Slamfire]

" You're attacker's goal is to do exactly what you're trying to avoid. Your choices are to parry, block or run."


I have never trained in knife fighting. Seems to me that when you get in that close, you are going to get cut. Probably cut bad.

I will take the run option. Or get behind a door option. Anything I can do to advoid a knife on knife fight.

 

[Anthony]

All of this talk about knife versus knife has moved me to comment.

Personally I would prefer $15 hickory baton to a custom $900 fighting knife.

Knife to knife engagements are very rare as pointed out by Colonel Rex Applegate, but if faced with a knife I would prefer to do anything that did not require me to close with my opponent and take advantage of the increased range.

This includes running if necessary.

To me, a knife is a tool first and a self defense weapon that fills a very narrow but important niche in my personal list of options.

 

[Skofnung]

I too, like Anthony have spent the last year since this thread training in Modern Arnis. Many of the things that I thought I knew flew right out the window after only a few classes. It is indeed a humbling experience being an agile, strong 20 something and getting your butt handed to you on a platter by a middle aged fellow that knows what he is doing.

I agree 100% with Anthony that a good stick would be preferable to a great knife, at least in my limited experience.

I hope to get my hands on a good bowie soon though!

 

[hso]

Stick usually trumps knife pretty much. The exceptions are when the guy with the knife is trained to get inside the arms of the stick weilder. Then it's debatable who has the advantage.

 

[Anthony]

Baston y Daga

Of course, this is where all those hours of Baston y Daga (stick and dagger) training come in handy with those pesky highly trained knife fighters.

 

[hso]

Worst beatings I ever got in training was knife against stick. Suffice it to say I got the beating while it was my turn with the knife. Good thing the practice sticks were flex tubing with a foam sleeve otherwise I'd have probably been knocked out at one point. I was happy when I got to wield the stick.

 

[Anthony]

Ah yes...I can realte.

Makes one admire the humble stick indeed.

 

[Dr.Rob]

Well I'll chime in. Bowie likely didn't use a Green River knife, as these were made in Green River, Mass out of stamped steel, almost like a saw blade in flexibility. Great for skinning. The reason they were popular is they were cheap, made with industrial innovation (waterwheel works) compared to imported forged Sheffield daggers and such. By today's standards a Green River knife is pretty crude, if effective.