Finally retired my LEE FCD's

[Peter M. Eick]

I have been using FCD's for years and they seemed like a good idea at the time. I finally got around to actually testing them more and more recently and as I have lately switched to lead bullets, my FCD's are getting parked.

The problem I have found is that with thick brass, lead bullets and conventional Lee FCD's with the carbide sizing ring, I was getting a bit of resizing of the bullet every time I pushed a round into the die. This always bothered me so over the last few months I went on a research project to sort it out.

Like I said the die basically is resizing the loaded round with a lead bullet. After measuring and pulling a bunch of bullets, I found I was commonly losing about 0.003 to 0.008" by doing this. It did not seem like much, but what I did note was that the bullet pull was dropping. This lead to a bit of metals research where I learned that lead is basically a "dead" metal and once sized it does not "practically" spring back. So, once the carbide ring sized the brass and the bullet, the bullet now is smaller and the brass sprung back a small bit. How much, is hard to say, but with a scale, I was losing about 5 to 10 lbs of bullet pull after FCD use.

I had already experimented with my sig 210's and shown that FCD vs. no FCD was good for about a 1 to 2" worse target for 50 shots at 15 yrds in 9mm. I had not done the same for other calibers. In 10mm it was less for me, about an inch worse, 40 was more close to 2" worse and 45 it was not as noticeable.

So my approach now is simplified. For all rounds I seat in one step but no crimp is applied on my pro2000.

For revolver rounds I use a redding profile crimper to crimp the case and reduce the flare. These work really well.

For straight walled pistol rounds, I seat in a RCBS seater crimper die and now I have either Redding or RCBS second taper crimp seater die with the seater stem removed. This has given me better accuracy and easy of adjustment in setting the dies.

For bottleneck cases in autoloaders and my 30/30's I still use the FCD collet style crimper. This one works quite well ont he 30/30's, 357 Sig or 7.62Nato rounds.

So, it has been an interesting road of experimentation and learning. I have gone from FCD's on every round to practically only 2. Along the way I have learned a great deal about accuracy, shooting and reloading. I guess it was well worth the investment in a bunch of FCD's. I will keep them around becasue they are good for de-glocking brass but otherwise in storage.

Last comment. This is only true of thick brass and lead bullets. If you load thin brass (R&P comes to mind) and jacketed bullets, you probably will never see the issue and I did not when I still loaded jacketed's. I do that rarely now so the FCD's had to go.

 

[moxie]

You will be happier now and your life simpler. Wise choice! Good dies adjusted properly will yield good results. No voodoo required. Welcome home!

 

[ranger335v]

The "post seating" sizing ring in the FCD has a single purpose: insure that the loaded ammo will fit and chamber reliably even tight chambers so those who have loose chambers have no need for it. Given bullets of the same diameter and cases of the same thickness it matters not if the bullets are jacketed or cast.

I have no understanding why the current phylosphy of cast bullets larger than groove diameter is so popular, the bullets are all groove diameter after traveling their own length anyway.

 

[Certaindeaf]

.
I have no understanding why the current phylosphy of cast bullets larger than groove diameter is so popular, the bullets are all groove diameter after traveling their own length anyway.

I wouldn't say it is "current". I'd more say it is from experience from those that came before us, like Keith, Pope, etc. It works.

 

[Lost Sheep]

Bullet vs Groove diameter

The "post seating" sizing ring in the FCD has a single purpose: insure that the loaded ammo will fit and chamber reliably even tight chambers so those who have loose chambers have no need for it. Given bullets of the same diameter and cases of the same thickness it matters not if the bullets are jacketed or cast.

I have no understanding why the current phylosphy of cast bullets larger than groove diameter is so popular, the bullets are all groove diameter after traveling their own length anyway.

Hot gasses escaping around the sides of an undersized lead bullet melts lead from the bullets' sides and lets it smear inside the barrel.

An oversized (within reason) lead bullet swages down to seal the bore. This is guaranteed. An undersized bullet may upset to seal the bore (especially if it is soft lead). This is not guaranteed.

Lost Sheep

Edit: Thanks, ranger335v

All true, so far as it goes. But there is nothing an oversized bullet can do that a proper sized bullet won't do. And, to my knowledge, Keith, etc, never suggested anything larger than 1 thou over groove size was needed to insure obturation. Being 1 thou over groove size MAY be helpful, larger than that can't possibly be helpful.

It should be clear that 'sizing' bullets in the barrel isn't likely to be as precisely done as in a proper sizer. Using the bore to do what should have been done on the bench is misplaced logic.

In the interest of brevity I did leave out a lot of information, most notably that TOO MUCH oversizing can lead to dangerous pressures.. Also, I forgot the term "obturation" and used "upset" (a near synonym). Using your chamber throat or forcing cone to size your bullets is (in my opinion) never a good practice, but given the facts of life on an assembly line (of guns and of bullets) a compromise that makes sense.

Again, thanks for pointing those things out.

 

[Lost Sheep]

(edited for brevity)
Like I said the die basically is resizing the loaded round with a lead bullet. After measuring and pulling a bunch of bullets, I found I was commonly losing about 0.003 to 0.008" by doing this. It did not seem like much, but what I did note was that the bullet pull was dropping. This lead to a bit of metals research where I learned that lead is basically a "dead" metal and once sized it does not "practically" spring back. So, once the carbide ring sized the brass and the bullet, the bullet now is smaller and the brass sprung back a small bit. How much, is hard to say, but with a scale, I was losing about 5 to 10 lbs of bullet pull after FCD use.

So, it has been an interesting road of experimentation and learning. I have gone from FCD's on every round to practically only 2. Along the way I have learned a great deal about accuracy, shooting and reloading. I guess it was well worth the investment in a bunch of FCD's. I will keep them around becasue they are good for de-glocking brass but otherwise in storage.

Last comment. This is only true of thick brass and lead bullets. If you load thin brass (R&P comes to mind) and jacketed bullets, you probably will never see the issue and I did not when I still loaded jacketed's. I do that rarely now so the FCD's had to go.

You will be happier now and your life simpler. Wise choice! Good dies adjusted properly will yield good results. No voodoo required. Welcome home!

Peter, you have done exactly as I would have. Use a crimp-only die to retain the simplicity of separate seating and crimping operations.

I think the FCD should be called the FCSD - Factory Crimp & re-Size Die - and they should offer both. Or perhaps the FCSD with a removable/replaceable sizing ring. A handloader could have a set of rings in varying sizes for different batches/combinations of brass, bullets and chambers. John Lee (President, Lee Precision) responded to a question generated on another thread saying that if there were demand for such a product, Lee Precision would respond.

The original thread
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=465091
and the thread with the poll
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=465603

Many loaders who like the Lee FCD achieve the same result by simply knocking the carbide post-sizing ring out of the FCD (but don't expect ever to put it back in). If you ask, Lee will make their FCD with the post-sizing ring of whatever size you specify.

I will try to locate the link to the thread where Lee is quoted on the matter.

Lost Sheep

 

[Otto]

You can send the FCD die to the Lee factory and they'll open it up a thousand or two.
I've always been able to load perfectly fine ammo without the need of the FCD but I know others can't.

 

[Lost Sheep]

John Lee and Lee Precision's thoughts on the matter

This thread contains a lively discussion of the FCD and the function of the post-sizing carbide ring in the FCD. The phrase "9mm" is in the thread title, but don't let that dissuade you. It contains responses direct from Lee Precision, too. Read the whole thing. It is worth it.
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=465091
poll
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=465603

Lost Sheep

 

[ranger335v]

"Hot gasses escaping around the sides of an undersized lead bullet melts lead from the bullets' sides and lets it smear inside the barrel. ... An oversized (within reason) lead bullet swages down to seal the bore. This is guaranteed. An undersized bullet may upset to seal the bore (especially if it is soft lead). This is not guaranteed."

All true, so far as it goes. But there is nothing an oversized bullet can do that a proper sized bullet won't do. And, to my knowledge, Keith, etc, never suggested anything larger than 1 thou over groove size was needed to insure obturation. Being 1 thou over groove size MAY be helpful, sometimes, but larger than that can't possibly be helpful.

It should be clear that 'sizing' bullets in the barrel isn't likely to be as precisely done as in a proper sizer. Using the bore to do what should have been done on the bench is misplaced logic.

Upset of light loads and/or light bullets is certainly problematic but it's NOT problematic with the hardest possible medium to heavy cast bullets when loaded anywhere near max, and that includes even those that are a thou undersize for the barrel. I recovered many cast .357 and .429 bullets of different styles, diameters and alloys from a soft sawdust pile at a defunct rural sawmill site to learn that. Every cast bullet shooter should see what a max loaded medium weight .357 or .44 mag SWC from wheel weights looks like after upset occurs!

Again, any proper bullet WILL be groove size when it's traveled it's own length in the barrel.
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Otto: "I've always been able to load perfectly fine ammo without the need of the FCD but I know others can't."

Otto, I think you're over looking something there; it's the combination of fat bullets and thick cases that makes large cartridges that jam, not a lack of skill. Dies are a little different, bullets may be different and different pistols do have different chambers so if you've had no problems I wonder how many handguns you've loaded for. Fact is, if we get the bullet diameters right there will be few problems for anyone but tolerances do sometimes stack the wrong way and skill has nothing to do with it. The FCD takes care of the "few problems" that might lead to jamming in a tight chamber so it comes down to what anyone wants from his handgun ammo; best potential accuracy for targets for every shot OR 100% reliability for every purpose, including defense.

Anyone can load good ammo with any dies, proper use of the Lee FCD and it's post seating sizer ring insures the cartridges will feed and lock up, every time, and nothing else can make that guarantee. (I say 'proper use' because the FCD isn't magic, if we make crappy ammo no crimper will fix it!)

 

[greyling22]

otto, will lee open of the FCD for free? or does it cost $15 to open up a $10 die? I like my taper crimp 9mm, but was having issues with it resizing my lead bullet so it's in a drawer and I'm using the roll crimp on the seating die.

 

[Lost Sheep]

otto, will lee open of the FCD for free? or does it cost $15 to open up a $10 die? I like my taper crimp 9mm, but was having issues with it resizing my lead bullet so it's in a drawer and I'm using the roll crimp on the seating die.

Are you using a roll crimp on a 9mm cartridge (for use in an autoloader, or do you have a 9mm revolver using moonclips)? Or do you just use the die to remove the flare?

Lost Sheep

 

[joneb]

it's the combination of fat bullets and thick cases that makes large cartridges that jam,

For me this does not justify post sizing.
I do not load mixed brass.
If there is thick walled brass I will find that out during load development, and avoid certain brass bullet combs if needed.
If there is a problem with over sized rounds I want to know about it, or let the FCD iron it out and leave me wondering why my reloads shoot so crappy.
I do not reload to make ammunition that shoots as good as factory ammo.

 

[Otto]

otto, will lee open of the FCD for free? or does it cost $15 to open up a $10 die? .

The last time I contacted Lee the honing was free but the shipping was not.
I've only used the FCD to iron out Glocked brass that was bulged.
I would never use a FCD to post-size a completed round.

 

[[email protected]]

When I started casting bullets I sized them to .001 over the diameter of jacketed bullets. This worked fine for 38 special .358, 45acp .452, and 40s&w .401. When I started casting for 9mm I started having problems with leading (it was heavy). I finally slugged the bore and found that the bore diameter varied from .356 to .357 in my two 9mm pistols. Luckly my lee mold casted bullets at .358 and I sized some at .358. and the leading stopped once I stopped using the FCD. With these oversized bullets my FCD was post sizing the bullet so I stopped using it. The rounds still chambered fine. If you havent done so check out the castboolits fourm. There is a wealth of helpful information about loading cast bullets and using the FCD with them.

 

[greyling22]

Lost sheep, I'm putting a light crimp on a 9mm in an autoloader with whatever is built into the lee bullet 9mm seating die. I'm pretty sure that is a roll crimp. I use a short bullet, and 9mm doesn't grow. I figure the case is probably headspacing on the extractor. Either way, it's worked for me for several thousand rounds.

 

[hAkron]

I like the lee FCD for 357 SIG, but it acts like a rifle FCD and not like a pistol FCD. I don't like them so well with lead bullets, but with plated or jacketed bullets in a tight chamber I will use them.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

I agree. The FCD in 357 sig works. I have proven that to myself. It is a collet type crimp though and not the post-sizing die ring approach.

I read the thread and it has the same conclusions buried in it that I have reached. If you have thick brass, big bullets (read lead) then you are exceeding the assumptions built into the normal Lee FCD. Thin brass, jacketed bullets, I had no issues.

 

[Rule3]

I had already experimented with my sig 210's and shown that FCD vs. no FCD was good for about a 1 to 2" worse target for 50 shots at 15 yrds in 9mm. I had not done the same for other calibers. In 10mm it was less for me, about an inch worse, 40 was more close to 2" worse and 45 it was not as noticeable.

I really did not want to enter this discussion but....

The LFCD debate will go on forever in relation to resizing lead bullets but so much depends on what bullet, what alloy and what barrel.

Your above "experiment" is not statistically valid in proving better or worse accuracy with or without the FCD.

There are too many other variables involved, Primary being the human factor, what load, what brass was it the same etc. etc.

Not saying wrong or right, what ever works for you.

 

[Scimmia]

All true, so far as it goes. But there is nothing an oversized bullet can do that a proper sized bullet won't do. And, to my knowledge, Keith, etc, never suggested anything larger than 1 thou over groove size was needed to insure obturation. Being 1 thou over groove size MAY be helpful, sometimes, but larger than that can't possibly be helpful.

OK, I've read through the thread twice and I can't find anyone who's talking about more than 1 thou over groove diameter besides you. Who are you arguing against? The fact is that the FCD will swage down bullets that are 1 thou over groove diameter in some conditions. This is a problem.

Upset of light loads and/or light bullets is certainly problematic but it's NOT problematic with the hardest possible medium to heavy cast bullets when loaded anywhere near max, and that includes even those that are a thou undersize for the barrel. I recovered many cast .357 and .429 bullets of different styles, diameters and alloys from a soft sawdust pile at a defunct rural sawmill site to learn that. Every cast bullet shooter should see what a max loaded medium weight .357 or .44 mag SWC from wheel weights looks like after upset occurs!

Again, now you're arguing that we're talking about max loads only when nobody said that besides you. I don't know anyone who loads everything to max, do you? Putting a 115 grain, .355" diameter, 20 BHN lead bullet ("proper" diameter) down a .357" barrel, which some 9mm pistols are, at 800 fps will not obturate. Putting that bullet down a .3555" groove diameter is unlikely to obturate, and very few reloaders are measuring accurately enough to see that. THIS IS A PROBLEM.

...the bullets are all groove diameter after traveling their own length anyway.

Not if the FCD swages them down 2-7 thou below groove diameter like the OP was experiencing.

Lost sheep, I'm putting a light crimp on a 9mm in an autoloader with whatever is built into the lee bullet 9mm seating die. I'm pretty sure that is a roll crimp.

The Lee seating die for 9mm is going to be a taper crimp, not a roll crimp.

 

[coalman]

I've long viewed the Lee FCD as analogous to the 1911 FLGR.

 

[ranger335v]

"I don't know anyone who loads everything to max, do you?"

Certainly.

" Putting a 115 grain, .355" diameter, 20 BHN lead bullet ("proper" diameter) down a .357barrel, which some 9mm pistols are, at 800 fps will not obturate."

Again, true but irrelivant to the basic point of my post; it appears you're reaching for something to differ about but I wasn't discussing any particular cartridge, just cast bullets as a class. The "max" speed for hard cast bullets in handguns isn't calibrated but it's normally something around 1,600 fps. Softer bullets can't properly achieve that speed due to leading or stripping out but then soft bullets will obtrurate at much lower velocities.

It doesn't matter if anyone has suggested any extra diameter than 1 thou, it's a commonly suggested thing to do today and it's wrong because it has no good potential effect. If any reloader has problems with seating or crimping due to a bullet being more than a thou oversize shouldn't be blaming the dies; most people actually SEEK tight dies but those who are loading large diameter bullets do benefit from sloppy seaters!

And, again, anyone with a sloppy chamber is unlikely to gain any benefit at all from the FCD.

 

[Scimmia]

Again, true but irrelivant to the basic point of my post; it appears you're reaching for something to differ about but I wasn't discussing any particular cartridge, just cast bullets as a class.

I'm not reaching, I was simply using 9mm as an example since it's a very common one to have issues with oversized barrels. It's only irrelevent to the basic point of your post if you're loading everything to max, which would put you in a small minority. All of your posts in this thread assert that a "proper" sized bullet will always oburate, and that simply isn't the case. If you're loading hot AND measuring and sizing to less than 1 ten thousandth and you can guarantee that your barrel has absolutely no variation in groove diameter, you might be able to achieve the results your claiming, but very few of us have those abilities. Far, far simplier to just go 1 thou over.

It doesn't matter if anyone has suggested any extra diameter than 1 thou, it's a commonly suggested thing to do today and it's wrong because it has no good potential effect.

Where? The only time I've seen a suggestion to go more than 1 thou over groove diameter is when dealing with 9mm where the groove diameter is far too often larger than the standard.

 

[joneb]

I had a Colt Trooper .357mag. with .358" diameter cylinder throats, I used .3585-.359 cast bullets or .358" swaged HBWCs. With the over sized cast bullets I used R-P brass, this gun had tight chambers thicker brass would cause chambering issues, but with the gun in hand while loading I would know if a bullet brass combination would work or not.
Lee has a collet type die for 38 and 44 cal that looks like a good way to crimp plated bullets ? I'm assuming it does not post size ?

 

[Galil5.56]

Scimmia, just to add to the knowledge base, here is what custom barrel maker Schuemann has to say:

Barrel Groove, Land, and Recommended Bullet Diameter

Barrels will have the following groove and land diameters. For optimum accuracy, lead bullets should be 0.002 or 0.003 inch larger than groove diameter; copper jacketed bullets should be 0.001 or 0.002 inch larger than groove diameter.

.355 caliber: groove diameter = 0.3550 inch, land diameter = 0.3460 inch.
.400 caliber: groove diameter = 0.4000 inch, land diameter = 0.3910 inch.
.450 caliber: groove diameter = 0.4500 inch, land diameter = 0.4420 inch.

Like you and Schuemann, I fall into the "fat" bullet camp, and like to run at least .002" over GD for lead, and .001" for jacketed, especially in shallow land 9mm's for top accuracy, and minimal lead fouling as applicable. I'll go about .003" for lead if the case/die/chamber dims allow as well.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

Rule3,

The comparison I did with my 210s took about 20 targets. At least 1000 rounds fired. I figured after 1000 rounds, 2 guns and similar results had proven it to myself. Similar result with my 10mm 1.5" guarantee Baer. If after 10 targets of each (another 1000 rounds) the difference was not obvious, I would have just stayed with it.

I shoot 50 shots per target and normally I don't make any conclusions of just one target. Basically a whole box on one target so I can truly see what I can do with the load. I don't look at the box when I grab the next one. I just grab it, dump it out and start loading the mags. It is not until the target is shot that I even look at the load and then it is just to grab the serial number so I can document the results later. I have seen to many targets where someone shoots 3 or 5 shots and professes it is a "great" load. It is not until I can ram 50 shots, offhand at 15 to 25 yrds into one ragged hole that I am ready to settle down and say I have a good load.

I will add that I was reloading 45 acp today and I dumped the FCD out of the pro2000 and into the spare die pile and set up the second seater crimp die. I then carefully adjusted it so I was getting just the bell rolled in and a touch of a taper crimp. Boy was the pro2000 smooth. I had forgotten what it is like to have the press run so smooth on autoloader ammo. No Bump Bump Bump as the bullet goes into the FCD and then Bump Bump Bump as it comes back out.


I will also add that I found the number of spare dies I have now to be interesting. Extra FCD's, Lyman "M" dies, roll crimp dies, extra sizer dies, multiple sets of 357 sig dies. My steady experimentation to try and build a better load has resulted in a litany of dies rejected for one reason or another. Some day I will have to have an "ebay" sale of all of the spare dies that I doubt I will use again.