Finally retired my LEE FCD's

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I've long viewed the Lee FCD as analogous to the 1911 FLGR.

Yeah but, my 1911 came with a FLGR and I can't shoot it without either that rod or purchasing another one. My Lee die sets came with a FCD and I can not only not use the die and still crimp just fine, but my lead bullets shoot better without it.

But I do get your point, the argument is never ending just like the full length guide rod.
 
Yeah but, my 1911 came with a FLGR and I can't shoot it without either that rod or purchasing another one. My Lee die sets came with a FCD and I can not only not use the die and still crimp just fine, but my lead bullets shoot better without it.

But I do get your point, the argument is never ending just like the full length guide rod.
Sorry about your guide rod.

If you would like to use the FCD without ruining your lead bullet accuracy, take a punch and knock the post-sizing ring out.

The Lee FCD has places where is belongs and places where it does not belong and places where it makes no difference.

Lost Sheep
 
Rule3,

The comparison I did with my 210s took about 20 targets. At least 1000 rounds fired. I figured after 1000 rounds, 2 guns and similar results had proven it to myself. Similar result with my 10mm 1.5" guarantee Baer. If after 10 targets of each (another 1000 rounds) the difference was not obvious, I would have just stayed with it.

Fair enough, but it is not what you said in your original post;)

I would still like to see (not from you:)) a test using a ransom rest, all new trimmed brass, three different brands of bullets, three guns and the same load and primer. Certified by someone important.:D
 
Peter shoots a lot in one sitting, and if he says one way in his guns worked better, I believe him. Either way.
 
My results with the Lee FCD have been the opposite.

I've pulled and measured lead bullets in both .357 and .45 after crimping, and have found no difference whatsoever in the diameter of the bullet.

I just picked up some cast 9mm projectiles this weekend, and will perform the same test and report back.

** Test Results: **

I seated and crimped two bullets (small sample, sorry...), and then pulled them with a kinetic puller.

The bullets are an unknown make, ~124-125 grain, truncated cone (similar to MBC 9mm Cone, except brownish lube), 0.357" in diameter. These may not actually be designed for a 9mm, but that's what I was told they were.

After seating and crimping to 0.376", the final diameter of the base was just a hair larger than 0.356". This is the first time I have seen any swaging from one of my Lee FCDs, but seems to be right at or under 0.001". I'd still feel comfortable using it, unless I saw any major leading problems.

I am not discounting any of our more learned members' opinions, but thought I should share my own personal experiences. Please bear in mind that I still consider myself a novice, even after a decade, and love learning from the collective experience of this forum.

I just picked up a few extra die sets this weekend, and am also planning on putting the Lee FCD out to pasture, and using a standard crimp die instead. I'm not too worried about using the FCD, as my experiences have been pretty good so far, but would like to know that I can live without it if necessary. I don't like the nagging feeling that it is a crutch that is masking a possible problem in my reloading procedure, without my being aware of it.

I also have experienced the clunkiness that Peter mentioned. I'm hoping that eliminating the FCD will also result in a smoother operating press.
 
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Have to agree with Walkalong...Pete's got the experience I only wish I could approach, so I tend to listen. If and when I start reloading and shooting to approach his volume, I will have to buy or make lead bullets.

I've been reloading for a long, long time, yet my experience up to now is limited to jacketed and just recently plated bullets. Pete's "last comment" in the first post applies to me.
Last comment. This is only true of thick brass and lead bullets. If you load thin brass (R&P comes to mind) and jacketed bullets, you probably will never see the issue and I did not when I still loaded jacketed's. I do that rarely now so the FCD's had to go.

My experience with the FCD is that it is a good separate crimper when adjusted with a little common sense (using jacketed bullets and not crimping into a cannelure that isn't there). If your other dies are set correctly, the resizing ring doesn't do a whole lot except to warn you when they're not set right.;) I'm not ready to scrap FCD's just yet....for my needs they work and when bought with a 4-die set, they're, in effect, free separate crimpers.
 
GW,

I agree with your comment about the FCD. It does make sense and yes I used them for years when (and that is the key point) when I was loading a lot of Rem Brass with Rem and Winchester bulk bullets. I used to buy jacketed bullets en bulk purchases. I would try to buy 2000 to 4000 lot bulk buys but around 2002 to 2004 those just seem to get harder and harder to find for me. It was around that time I started to switch over to Starline brass that I use almost exclusively now for pistol (except things like 357 Maximum where only Rem brass is available).

I then went through a period of Starline and Jacketeds and the FCD was just starting to tag the edge of the bullet upon sizing. Not enough to make an impact but enough to be noticeable.

As I no longer was able to buy large quantities of jacketeds at once, I tried Berry's (where I invented the slang "getting Berry-ed" which is not a good thing. I next started playing with Lasercasts more and more. They were cheap, bulk quantities, hard as heck and worked well in many guns. Unfortunately that lead (yes bad pun) to Starline, Lasercast lead and FCD's which is in general a combination for getting a bullet resized. What I saw as that guns that were accurate with Jacketeds now were not as accurate. This led to experimentation and eventually for the revolvers dropping all FCD's for redding profile crimp dies. They work great! Accuracy came right back.

Over time though, Lasercast got enough of a following that they raised their rates and the price differential between jacketed, Lasercast and other lead bullets became to much for me to swallow, so I searched around for more reasonable prices.

MBC and Penn came to the forefront. Penn is probably closer to Lasercast but MBC gave me better service. So I switched over to MBC and as I started to reload the autoloaders after the great primer scare of 08 to 10, I found that the FCD was causing problems. The clunk,clunk and clunk of resizing the lead bullet, startline brass on the way in and out of the die. A few range trips and I found that this was a problem.

The key was my new 38 super. I bought a Les Baer 1.5" PII 38 super. Great gun. I ordered up supplies and could not get an FCD so I just loaded a bunch with out it. Great accuracy fun round, lots of fun and 1300 fps and a 135lead MBC was nothing to shake a fist at. Finally, as part of my routine ordering I get a 38 super FCD. I then immediately dropped it in and started loading with it. The hard squeezing of the lead and the brass immediately returned. Since I have not built up a huge stash of 38 super yet, these loads got out to the range quick. Accuracy went from 50 shot groups in the 1 to 1.5" range to 3 to 4". Dang, what happened?

This led to testing, testing led to research, research led to discovery and discovery led to parking the FCD's in the spare die pile.

So there is the history of how I went form the FCD being a good thing to the FCD's sitting on the top shelf along with the Lyman "M" dies, hornady seaters, Dillon die sets, powder checker dies,spare revolver taper crimp dies, etc.....

I admit it. I experiment a lot, I make mistakes. In the long run, the FCD's were a bad choice "for me" but at the time they made sense. I bought, I learned and I moved on to something better. I can guarantee that in a few years, I doubt I will be using the exact setup I am doing now. I like to try and improve and do things better. That is the fun of the sport.
 
My experience with the FCD is that it is a good separate crimper when adjusted with a little common sense (using jacketed bullets and not crimping into a cannelure that isn't there). If your other dies are set correctly, the resizing ring doesn't do a whole lot except to warn you when they're not set right. I'm not ready to scrap FCD's just yet....for my needs they work and when bought with a 4-die set, they're, in effect, free separate crimpers.

My thoughts exactly. No one else is including a separate crimp die in their sets, making the deluxe pistol sets a very good value.

There are many, many folks using it(FCD) on cast projectiles with no issues, however.
 
GW,

As I no longer was able to buy large quantities of jacketeds at once, I tried Berry's (where I invented the slang "getting Berry-ed" which is not a good thing.

My experience with plated bullets is limited, including Berry's bullets, (have a few boxes to try) so far.....care to enlighten me? What's "getting Berry-ed"?

And BTW, (changing the subject to your vast experience with the Pro 2000), do you prime on the press or separately? If so, so you use the primer stop or just seat them by feel? Curious! :)
 
...except Dillon pistol dies.

True enough....just not quite as free.:) If we're talking utimate though, there is the Redding Pro Series die set where they replace their expander with a crimper. $144 slp, though!!

If Redding starts including their new trick double ring carbide sizers in those kits that'd be even better! That will raise the price a lot since Redding wants $144 slp for this new sizer.....by itself!!!!!
die_tic2.jpg

The Lee is still a super value....and it works fine for most of my reloading.
 
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A couple of questions and comments.

Can you make the FCD work with lead? Sure, either accept the sizing of the bullet or get thinner brass or thinner bullets. Any one of the three will solve the problem and you will be an FCD believer. I know I was one. I just chose thick brass (strike one) lead bullets (strike two) and slightly oversized bullets (strike 3) and I struck out with the FCD because it was sizing the bullets and costing me accuracy. Chose thinner bullets, say remington brass or not accurate guns, no problem.

What is being "Berry-ed"? That is when you buy their bullets and find out they are too small, misshapen, nor really round, thin non-uniformly plated or you overcrimp them and the plating sheds. I bought a LOT of Berry's while my daughter was an infant to grade school. I just wanted to cut down on the lead in the house. After a while I just gave up. Sorry, just too many problems for me. Others have had great luck. Oh well. I just went to back to buying Jacketeds until I felt my daughter was old enough and then I went lead.

Dillon's work and I use their carbide in my 357 sig loads, but the rest of them with the quick take down setup just never gave me the accuracy I was desiring. I could do better with conventional dies in the pro-2000.

The new Reddings are interesting. I will probably have to try a set and see if they make a difference. Interesting idea though.

Right now I just like to seat and crimp separately. Can it be done with one die well? Sure, it just takes a bit of time to set it up. Do you have the control that you get when you do it separately? No. In particular with lead bullets I get better results doing separately.
 
A couple of questions and comments.

Can you make the FCD work with lead? Sure, either accept the sizing of the bullet or get thinner brass or thinner bullets. Any one of the three will solve the problem and you will be an FCD believer. I know I was one. I just chose thick brass (strike one) lead bullets (strike two) and slightly oversized bullets (strike 3) and I struck out with the FCD because it was sizing the bullets and costing me accuracy. Chose thinner bullets, say remington brass or not accurate guns, no problem.

(edited for brevity and focus)

Right now I just like to seat and crimp separately. Can it be done with one die well? Sure, it just takes a bit of time to set it up. Do you have the control that you get when you do it separately? No. In particular with lead bullets I get better results doing separately.
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Or you could buy an extra seat/crimp die and use it instead of the FCD. Or knock the carbide ring out of the FCD.

Lee Precision will also enlarge the post-sizing ring to your specification at no charge.

Lost Sheep
 
That is what I did. I bought an extra seater crimp die, pulled the seater out of it can now have a dedicated crimp die.

The reason I keep the FCD's is because there is a logic to them that can't be argued with. If I were to get a tightly chambered gun, then I might bring them back off the top shelf to use again. The other reason I keep them "as is" is for use with "glocked" brass. They make great push through dies for 40/10 brass that I have picked up over the years. This is why I don't just get them enlarged.

Dillon makes great dies. I think if I had gone with their presses over the RCBS, I would have gone with their dies mainly. They definitely work and seemed tailored to their hardware. For me though, I could make more accurate rounds with conventional technology.
 
I came to this post thinking someone was having a problem with their FCDs. That was not the case (pun intended). First let's understand that the Factory Crimp Dies for pistol are totally different than the FCD for rifle. Constructed differently and function differently.

To clear things up, no I do not crimp pistol reloads (38 spl & 357 mag, Yes, I do but with a roll crimp). However, I always use the FCD on all my pistol reloads. Why, because it gives me a uniform seal 360 degrees around the bullet and takes any mouth flare out that may have been missed by the seating die. Not all bullets or cases are 100% to spec and variances do occure in their manufacture. This insures that I will have NO failure to feed in any of a dozen pistols that I reload for.

In my short reloading expereince of 8 years, I have come to the opinion that I will not reload lead bullets and only stick to jacketed bullets, but that is just my opinion and I understand that they work very well in revolvers ( I load almost only for semi-autos ).

I have neither the space or an area to cast my own lead bullets and anyone that does knows that they have to be sized and lubed after they cool. I do not trust the lead bullet companies to do this properly and find too many variences on commercial pre-cast lead bullets to rely on them, they are cheaper yes, but for a reason.

I started using the FCD on all my reloads about three years ago after I purchased a 40 S&W gun. Using range brass (free) only, I needed to get the Glocked cases back to spec and the Lee Bulge Buster kit and FCD does just that. It worked so well I tried it on my 45 ACP and 380 ACP cases as well. Now no case is used without going through the Bulge Buster and FCD first. (it makes resizing a snap)

I have had only one failure to feed do to a flared mouth on a 45 ACP nickel plated case do the a flared mouth that did not come back to spec while seating the bullet. But, one was too much. Like I said, I run EVERY reload through a FCD every time, not to crimp the round but with the stem backed out to insure the case mouth is right and will not cause a failure to feed. So far it has worked like a charm with no indent on the bullet and yes sometimes I will feel the extra pressure to get the case through the die, but that just tells me it is working right and that that round will feed without any problem.

It is not wise to crimp semi-auto pistol cases because the case index's on the case mouth, so don't do it, but do use the FCD to insure the bullet and case will feed without a problem, just back the stem off a few turns.

As to the use of lead bullets, well that's your choice but there are other issues using lead bullets beyond the use of the Factory Crimp Die.

Don't toss those FCD's away, you may find a use for them after all.
Jim
 
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In my short reloading expereince of 8 years, I have come to the opinion that I will not reload lead bullets and only stick to jacketed bullets, but that is just my opinion and I understand that they work very well in revolvers ( I load almost only for semi-autos ).

In 38 years I have loaded more cast than I could haul in my pickup...making numerous trips. Most of were/are for autos. I'm sure jacketed would, in some cases, "buy" me a little more accuracy, but as I measure my 1911 groups at well under an inch at 25 yards, the accuracy increase isn't worth the cost.
 
Dillon presses do not use an expander die.
Explanation: Dillon dies are mainly made for Dillon presses. Except for the .50 single station press their presses are all progressive with powder-though expanders built-in under the powder measure.
 
In 38 years I have loaded more cast than I could haul in my pickup...

If you re-read my post, you would understand I do not and can not cast my own bullets (would like to, but).

What I said is that there are many other uses for the Factory Crimp Dies.

Would you trust say Berry's Bullets lead or plated to be uniform, I would not. I would trust YOUR bullets before I would trust a commercial made lead bullet.

Just my opinion. (It's worth what you paid for it, LOL)
Jim
 
If you re-read my post, you would understand I do not and can not cast my own bullets (would like to, but).

What I said is that there are many other uses for the Factory Crimp Dies.

Would you trust say Berry's Bullets lead or plated to be uniform, I would not. I would trust YOUR bullets before I would trust a commercial made lead bullet.

Just my opinion. (It's worth what you paid for it, LOL)
Jim
I cast for a couple of Contender calibers and a couple others, but all the H&G 68s I've fired were "store bought." I don't have time to cast that many. Cast bullets are no different than any other product, including jacketed bullets; pay a cheap price, you get a cheap bullet.

There are a number of commercial casters turning out superb bullets. I don't recall the maker, but about 20 years ago I came into a number of 7MM cast SAECOs. They easily grouped sub-MOA from my XP100. Shot a ton of 40X40s with 'em.
 
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