"Find Compromise in Gun Debate"

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I'm just idly musing here, but has anyone else notice the apparent olive-branches coming at us from various sources? With all the gains our side has made of late - and hopefully those to come - it's interesting how the suggestions for compromise are starting to arrive from the opposition.

I'm sure they believe that they're generally on the retreat on various fronts (yay us!) - but while they're still able and willing enough to launch strong flanking assaults eg. the microstamping firearms and bullets lunacy, I'm in no mood to grant them the *cough* compromise they ask for.
 
AndyC: IMO the 'bullet bills' are not a flanking assault. They are the new Schwerpunkt. It's been said by many on these forums that the ammo was how they'd get it done, and now it's starting to come to fruition. Starting. The game is still early, and active contact with legislators on both the state and federal levels is very important as is contacting ammunition manufacturers.
 
Well... yeah I do. I bought a gun off a guy I didn't know in a home depot parking lot last month, legally.
I don't believe for a second the author is talking about legal FTF sales. In fact, I don't think he even knows what a legal FTF sale is. Consider the wording of the sentence and it's placement. Notice how he tosses it in after his comment about flooding the inner city with guns? Large quantities of guns are still in the readers, and authors, mind. People who sell out of cars are "nobody's friend'? Well, they must be bad people then, since they are nobody's friend. They can't be doing anything legal. They're flooding the inner city with guns out of the backs of their cars... A virtual icecream man of guns. At least, that's what I believe the author was trying to imply.

If you think he was talking about legal FTF sales as yourself this... when was the last time you saw an anti that actually could explain the "dreaded" Gun show loophole? I have yet to meet one. I bet that Antis who know about legal FTF sales and FFL transfers are equally as rare.
 
Outflanking wins battles - you just roll up the other guy's entire line. I used the term specifically with that knowledge in mind, so I think I'll stick with it ;)
 
I'd like to add to my earlier post about Mr. Pitts. He seemed to be the kind of guy who will really listen to facts and think about them. I'm not saying he's going to change his mind at the drop of a hat, but he does appear to listen to facts and respond in kind. IOW, I don't believe ranting at him will do a bit of good.

John
 
Outflanking wins battles - you just roll up the other guy's entire line. I used the term specifically with that knowledge in mind, so I think I'll stick with it

Fair enough.

I viewed it more as a Soviet style offensive. Attack everywhere and when the weak point is found and exploited, pour the mobile reserves into it, reinforcing success. ;)

Either way, I agree that compromise is out of the question. Enough of that's been done already and guesss which side got all the gain from it?
 
and that gun registration isn't totalitarianism any more than a driver's license is

Well, I'm not required to register a car if i'm not taking it out on the open road. So I wouldn't be required to register any firearm i'm not going to carry in public?

Then again the right to own/drive a car isn't a protected amendment in the Constitution either ...
 
Then again the right to own/drive a car isn't a protected amendment in the Constitution either ...

In spirit, it could very well be considered protected.

People have to be able to get around freely and unimpeded to do business and for the nation to function. Before cars, there was no registration or licensing for means of conveyance. Can you imagine the uproar if a man in the 1870s had to get a Wagon License or a Horse License?

The Constitution is better read when looking at what it specifically allows rather than what it doesn't say.

Besides, licensing of vehicles and drivers is a state matter. For now.
 
We've been compromising since 1934. We are not one whit safer than we were in 1933. I'm through compromising and I won't be satisfied until every piece of rights-stripping legislation is repealed and a federal preemption is established.

If anyone can show me a single piece of rights-stripping legislation that can be demonstrated as having saved a life I might back off a bit. But I've got $20 that says you can't.
 
I'm just idly musing here, but has anyone else notice the apparent olive-branches coming at us from various sources? With all the gains our side has made of late - and hopefully those to come - it's interesting how the suggestions for compromise are starting to arrive from the opposition.
Those "olive branches" kind of remind me of Heinrich Himmler's offer to "bury the hatchet with the Jews" when he started to see the handwriting on the wall in late '44.

No thanks Heinrich, I think I'll just keep sitting here knitting you a hemp necktie...
 
I'd like to add to my earlier post about Mr. Pitts. He seemed to be the kind of guy who will really listen to facts and think about them. I'm not saying he's going to change his mind at the drop of a hat, but he does appear to listen to facts and respond in kind. IOW, I don't believe ranting at him will do a bit of good.

JohnBT,you are correct.I've exchanged several emails with Mr.Pitts.
Unlike so many liberals, he can be reasoned with and some of his columns are lucid.
And ranting will not do a bit of good,also right on target.
 
The devil's inthe details, so let's look at them:

Could gun-rights people then concede that you don't need an assault weapon to go deer hunting?


Ask Jim Zumbo about that one, why don'tcha? And in any event, it's a straw argument. He doesn't care what assault weapons are used for, as long as they're banned.

And that manufacturers who flood poor, violence-prone neighborhoods with cheap handguns ought to be held accountable?

When was the last time anyone saw a Lorcin truck backing up into the ghetto, and tipping a load of guns out?

Oh, wait, I get it! POOR PEOPLE SHOULDN'T HAVE GUNS, because they're unable to control themselves.


And that guys who sell guns from the trunks of their cars are nobody's friend?

I bought a gun from a trunk. From my best friend. It was a really good deal. And he's a really good friend.


And that background checks and gun-safety classes for new gun owners make us all safer?

I'll concede that if he'll concede that voting should be dependent on showing definitive ID, a background check, and passing literacy and civics tests.


And that gun registration isn't totalitarianism any more than a driver's license is?

It sure is. There is one, and only one reason to register: to control, either immediately or at some future time, who has access to arms.

And, most of all, that all of us are tired of seeing children shoot children with guns they never should have had access to?

Well, there we agree in principle, but not in particulars. There's an exact parallel here to "abstinence education". Conservatives would have teens "just say no to drugs, sex and alcohol", and Liberals would have everyone "just say no" to guns. Both approaches are doomed.
 
Just reading the first paragraph of Pitts article I knew he had no real understanding of the Constitution. It gives no rights. It assumes we have these rights and specifies which can't be infringed upon. He has his God given right to free speech and the Constitution protects it from government control.
 
Well since a couple of you said he tends to reply I decided to write him:

Mr. Pitts, I read your article and must admit I'm a little stumped as to
what you feel the compromise for gun owners would be. The way you've
presented your argument seems to boil down to a simple "if you quit
resisting so much, we'll let you keep some of your 2nd amendment rights."
To me this is no different than saying I would like to compromise with the
miami herald. I will allow you to keep some of your freedom of press as
long as they agree to never publish another op/ed piece on gun control.
Trying to find a middle ground isn't always the correct answer and it
seems like a solid ruling on the 2nd amendment is what is needed.

Past that I'd like to give you my take on some of your views. I'm not
sure if you'll listen or respond, most journalists don't, but its worth a
try. First you mention banning firearms on a national scale being
impossible. The idea of "gun ban day" with trucks rolling down the street
is of course impossible. Many gun owners feel more like gun bans are a
war of attrition where our rights are being slowly eroded. First we saw
the regulation of machine guns and sound suppressors. Items that used to
be purchased in hardware stores now required a very expensive tax,
fingerprinting, extensive background checks, etc. Then we saw machine
guns made after 1986 being banned from consumer purchase driving up the
price of existing guns 20 times over the purchase cost of new ones. Then
comes an assault weapons ban, then its .50 caliber rifles. Some states
take it further and still have their own assault weapons ban, some even
prohibit their citizens from purchasing handguns that they deem as unsafe
even if they are the handgun that most police officers in their state
carry. I think if you had a little bit more of an inside view you might
see how gun owners have a more realistic and actual view of how gun bans
get progressively tighter. We've seen how registration leads to
confiscation as well.

Personally I'm not a hunter, but I also don't believe the 2nd amendment is
about hunting. You mention assault weapons and deer hunting. Can you
tell me what makes an assault weapon to you? What most people call
assault weapons are the kind of black military styled rifles that are
semi-automatic. I guess they look a little scarier than grandfather's
hunting rifle but the honest truth is that they are far lower power and
less accurate too. Assault weapon bans mention things like bayonet
mounting points as criteria for a ban. Are you really worried about
bayonet'ings? Why is the more powerful and more powerful deer rifle
acceptable? I have one of those "assault rifles" for protection. If you
like I can tell you why they make great defensive weapons. Its the reason
why you'll find one in most police cars in the US.

And really for that matter, why all the talk about "assault weapons" to
begin with? According to the FBI of the 10,177 firearm related homicides
in the US in 2006, a total of 436 were committed with rifles.
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2006/offenses/expanded_information/data/shrtable_07.html
That is all rifles, hunting rifles and scary black rifles. Don't the anti
gun people focus a little too heavy on this 4% of gun homicide?

Next you're talking about cheap handguns in poor neighborhoods. To me
this seems like elitism. I think you'd agree that weapons do not create
violence, they are simply a tool for it. The causes of violence are of
course linked to much deeper socio-economic factors. Shouldn't we work on
fixing those? I actually like the idea that the hardworking guy in the
poor violent neighborhood can buy an affordable handgun to protect himself
against the criminals who are making plenty of money to buy whatever guns
they want, at least if they don't steal them.

I've sold a gun from the trunk of my car. What is wrong with a face to
face sale of a gun? I can sell any of my other possessions that way.

How do background checks keep us safer? Are you suggesting that the guy
that intends to murder someone would go through the legal process of
buying a gun? If you're intentions are so terrible, breaking the law to
steal a gun or buy it illegally are the least of your issues. Bank
robbers don't care about parking their get away car in a no parking zone
and murders don't care about breaking gun purchase laws.

How about gun safety classes? You claim we'd be safer if they were
required. I'm an open minded guy, show me the evidence of that. We have
states with training and storage requirements. If those states are indeed
safer for that requirement, you should be able to show some evidence of
it. Given the low number of firearm accidents in the US each year I think
the answer is far simpler. The kind of person that would put a gun to
their head and pull the trigger because they think it is unloaded or would
leave guns in reach of their children have a thought process that isn't
going to be fixed by taking a state mandated class some afternoon.

Mr. Pitts you'll have to forgive me for not being any more willing to
compromise my 2nd Amendment rights any more than I would be willing to
compromise the other rights promised to me in the Bill of Rights. As a
journalist I would hope that you are at least as fervent with your first
amendment rights. I do hope that I've given you an insight into some how
gun owners view the assault on our freedoms. If you have any questions or
further thoughts on the matter I'd be glad to have a dialogue with you on
them.
I'll update if he responds.
 
People! People!

We have to be willing to compromise. It's how all this works.

I have been pushing for compromise for years.

Here's the compromise.

Rather than repeal ALL the gun control laws, we will compromise and settle for repealing only 10 percent per year.

We don't get all we want right now, but it's a sacrifice we have to make.

Can't we all just get along?
 
People! People!

We have to be willing to compromise. It's how all this works.

I have been pushing for compromise for years.

Here's the compromise.

Rather than repeal ALL the gun control laws, we will compromise and settle for repealing only 10 percent per year.

We don't get all we want right now, but it's a sacrifice we have to make.

Can't we all just get along?

Can we pick the first 10%? :)
 
The key question is this: Does the Second Amendment confer an individual right to gun ownership, or does it refer only to the right of a state to raise a militia? I've always thought the latter, a view buttressed by many legal rulings, including the Supreme Court's, when it last weighed in on the subject, almost 70 years ago.

NRA-ILA on the Miller case (which was about 70 years ago):
U.S. v. Miller, 307 U.S. 174 (1939). This is the only case in which the Supreme Court has had the opportunity to apply the Second Amendment to a federal firearms statute. The Court, however, carefully avoided making an unconditional decision regarding the statute`s constitutionality; it instead devised a test by which to measure the constitutionality of statutes relating to firearms and remanded the case to the trial court for an evidentiary hearing (the trial court had held that Section 11 of the National Firearms Act was unconstitutional). The Court remanded the case because it had concluded that:
  • In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a "shotgun having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length" at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument. Certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment or that its use could contribute to the common defense.
Thus, for the keeping and bearing of a firearm to be constitutionally protected, the firearm should be a militia-type arm.1

The case also made clear that the militia consisted of "all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense" and that "when called for service these men were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time."2 In setting forth this definition of the militia, the Court implicitly rejected the view that the Second Amendment guarantees a right only to those individuals who are members of the militia. Had the Court viewed the Second Amendment as guaranteeing the right to keep and bear arms only to "all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense," it would certainly have discussed whether, on remand, there should also be evidence that the defendants met the qualifications for inclusion in the militia, much as it did with regard to the militia use of a short-barrelled shotgun.
Leonard Pitts is misrepresenting the Miller decision, and he patently does not know what he is talking about.
 
People that want you to open your mind want you to accept their closed-minded point of view.
 
What if supporters of gun control could concede that hunting is, for some, an honored tradition? That some people feel it necessary to have a weapon at home for protection? That some entirely rational folks simply like guns?

He was doing so well, and then the myths come out.

Could gun-rights people then concede that you don't need an assault weapon to go deer hunting? And that manufacturers who flood poor, violence-prone neighborhoods with cheap handguns ought to be held accountable? And that guys who sell guns from the trunks of their cars are nobody's friend? And that background checks and gun-safety classes for new gun owners make us all safer? And that gun registration isn't totalitarianism any more than a driver's license is? And, most of all, that all of us are tired of seeing children shoot children with guns they never should have had access to?

Assault weapon? Todays version of P17s and 03s used to hunt deer? How does a "manufacturer" that doesn't sell to anyone but dealers flood a neighborhood with anything? Children shooting children? Is he talking about 8 year olds (which everyone agrees is bad) or 16 year old bangers? Pffft!
 
As others have said, I find it interesting how many of these reporters and liberals define compromise.
Kind of like the example of a mugger deciding only deciding to take part of you money and not all of it and calling that a compromise. Too bad they want to use a double standard when looking at too many things.
I also agree that education is the key to win.
 
:banghead:
Could gun-rights people then concede that you don't need an assault weapon to go deer hunting?
Ooookay.
And you concede you don't need broadcast media for political discussion?

:banghead::banghead:
And that manufacturers who flood poor, violence-prone neighborhoods with cheap handguns ought to be held accountable?
As though this actually happens??? In reality, poor folks should have access to quality, inexpensive handguns that fit within their budget. I don't see a price association in the Constitution for the exercise of ANY right.

And Journalists concede Politicians should not be permitted to flood poor, violence-prone neighborhoods with race-baiting, negative campaign advertisements?

How does one begin to educate a person with such an apparently limited critical thinking skillset?:banghead::banghead::banghead:

Does their viewpoint get adjusted when they or a close loved one is murdered, raped or robbed?:confused:

My $0.02.

Poper
 
What this boob doesn't understand is that the Bill of Rights doesn't grant any rights at all. It enumerates and guarantees existing rights. The RKBA already existed when 2A was written.

The Militia is cited as the reason for providing the guarantee, not as the reason for the existance of the right itself.
 
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