Find the flaw in my logic .300wm vs .338wm (Benelli R1)

Status
Not open for further replies.
Sir Isaac Newton in the late 1600's formulated the laws of motion. The laws of energy derived in part from his findings and proved in experiments in the 1700's. This is not something made up by gun writers. I think we all understand that there are many factors in bullet performance on game. Bullet construction, velocity, weight, size, sectional density range etc. Momentum is the measurement of an object to remain in motion, energy is the measurement of work that an object performs. When a bullet strikes flesh, momentum is converted to energy according to the factors mentioned. The destruction of flesh is caused by resistance to the object. That resistance is affected by the weight (mass of the bullet) velocity of the bullet, the shape of the bullet, expansion or deformation of the bullet, sectional density, integrity of the bullet, etc. range, and mostly placement. Maybe others I have not thought of. Energy is the only measurement of the work done by the bullet according to physics. Naturally a bigger bullet in mass and cross section will have more resistance than a small bullet at the same speed. I have always said that bigger and faster is better discounting other factors. The resistance and wound channel also increases with speed and within limitations, speed can offset bullet size and mass due to greater resistance.
Also as I have mentioned before, our forefathers killed everything in North America with muzzle loaders, in general, comparable to a .44 Magnum in power. Success depends on getting close enough and shooting accurate enough to get your bullet in the right spot. Those are the facts. I don't care if you believe it or not.
 
The last several big game animals I shot with a handgun were moving at 40-70yds. If you can hit a little crackhead blackbuck on the move through the brush at 70yds, you can hit a 1000lb bear or moose.

012b.jpg
Grizzlies and Bull moose become very angry when they get shot, they will charge with remarkable speed up to 35 mph. I would NOT let one see where the shot came from . You sir are far braver than I. I have seen a black bear cover 90 yards uphill in just a few seconds before I killed him with a rifle.
 
Sir Isaac Newton in the late 1600's formulated the laws of motion.
Yeah, I paid attention in physics class too. As I said, in the context of terminal ballistics, energy is a simplistic answer to a very complicated question. It. Is. Useless. Unless you're launching a new marketing campaign for the latest whizzbang belted super magnum.

You never answered my questions or even remotely addressed the examples I gave.


I have always said that bigger and faster is better discounting other factors.
Then why are you agreeing with JMR and arguing with me?
 
Yeah, I paid attention in physics class too. As I said, in the context of terminal ballistics, energy is a simplistic answer to a very complicated question. It. Is. Useless. Unless you're launching a new marketing campaign for the latest whizzbang belted super magnum.

You never answered my questions or even remotely addressed the examples I gave.



Then why are you agreeing with JMR and arguing with me?
You don't seem to understand anything. If you understood physics you would not argue with me. You would also understand that stuff like TKO has no validity in science. There is no such measurement. I have often said bigger and faster is better. That is not controversial. But there are many factors in bullet effectiveness. As I pointed out. No I am not answering your questions. You just make contrary remarks yet again.
Energy is the valid measurement of work both potential and actual. There is no other. People do not seem to understand simple facts. It is how to apply that energy effectively. It is no problem for arms companies and the military's of the world. They have scientists, top level test faculties, studies and real ballistic engineers. It's guys like you and gun writers making guesses with no understanding of science that confuse people. There is no discussion of it. Facts are facts established over centuries by real scientists. Claiming energy is an old wives tail and that a gun maker made it up is a display if ignorance and lies by people that want to make money by attracting the ignorant and have hate in their heart.
I have no interest in the bs you say. Also I have faced a charging bull moose and have bears walk through my campsite. It's no big deal. And I have shot hundreds of animals with all kinds of guns. I am happy for your success and enjoyment of the sport and wish you well. You are no expert and nothing you say have any validity.
 
Last edited:
No I am not answering your questions. You just make contrary remarks yet again.
I know you won't. Folks who believe as you do never do, because you can't. In doing so, you'd have to admit to being wrong. Because the answer reveals the truth. I will challenge your pre-determined narrative, yes. I'm not contrary just to be contrary.



You don't seem to understand anything. If you understood physics you would not argue with me. You would also understand that stuff like TKO has no validity in science. There is no such measurement. I have often said bigger and faster is better. That is not controversial. But there are many factors in bullet effectiveness. As I pointed out.
Hmmm. I've done things you have not, over a period of decades. I've tested things you have not. I've actually seen and done things that made me change my mind. My findings were published in a book on handgun hunting. I spent thousands of dollars just to test bullets on critters most people never shoot, yourself included. You're clinging to a 40yr old test that was flawed and outdated the day it was published. But it's me that doesn't understand. Keep telling yourself that.


dunning-kruger-effect-b.jpg
 
I know you won't. Folks who believe as you do never do, because you can't. In doing so, you'd have to admit to being wrong. Because the answer reveals the truth. I will challenge your pre-determined narrative, yes. I'm not contrary just to be contrary.




Hmmm. I've done things you have not, over a period of decades. I've tested things you have not. I've actually seen and done things that made me change my mind. My findings were published in a book on handgun hunting. I spent thousands of dollars just to test bullets on critters most people never shoot, yourself included. You're clinging to a 40yr old test that was flawed and outdated the day it was published. But it's me that doesn't understand. Keep telling yourself that.


dunning-kruger-effect-b.jpg
I have to admit, you are funny. No I am a good student. You claim to be an expert. I do not. Yes, I agree, I am convinced that you do know way more than me about pistol hunting. Modern ballistics don't affect pistols as much since they largely are the same as black powder ballistics. In black powder ballistics bullet mass and size is used to create energy since speed is limited. That is even older information. This discussion is about rifles. You are an expert, Yet you claim science and physics are old wives' tales. Have a good day expert.
 
Last edited:
I have to admit, you are funny. No I am a good student. You claim to be an expert. I do not. Yes, I agree, I am convinced that you do know way more than me about pistol hunting. Modern ballistics don't affect pistols as much since they largely are the same as black powder ballistics. In black powder ballistics bullet mass and size is used to create energy since speed is limited. That is even older information. This discussion is about rifles. You are an expert, Yet you claim science and physics are old wives' tales. Have a good day expert.
I never claimed to be an expert but you did say I "understand nothing". I also never claimed "science and physics are old wives tales". This seems to be a common disconnect with you folks. I said the use of energy as a measure of terminal effect is an old wives tale. Because this isn't a high school discussion of basic physics concepts. There's nothing basic or simplistic about terminal ballistics, that's the problem.

Yes, very similar to blackpowder ballistics. "Creating energy" has nothing to do with it, because they don't. Why? Because they high on mass and diameter but low on velocity. In the energy formula, velocity is squared. It's already guaranteed to be a higher number than weight, then you go ahead and multiply it by itself. For that reason, its importance is greatly exaggerated, while mass is trivialized and diameter is ignored entirely. I paid attention in math class too. Now we're back to square one.

I only brought up the pistol examples to make a point, which you clearly missed. You also missed/ignored the rifle examples too. In fact, you have not presented a technical argument at all but only resort to ad hominem comments.
 
The power benefit from the larger piston of the 338 bore is minuscule - we can push a LITTLE heavier bullet at the same speed in the larger bore as we can the smaller - getting a 250 to roughly the same speed as a 230 - but overall, it’s a horse apiece. Neither is a wrong answer behind the other at the top end for hunting, but we can do more with the 30cal than the 338.

I’d be much more tempted to measure the action to see if a 300PRC will fit into the R1 action, given the option of changing.
Best Mag length without the "short action spacer" measurement I was able to take was 3.367" if we made an @LoonWulf Adjustment to the mag and notched out the front, we might get to 3.59" MAYBE, I measured the mag, for those who are unaware of how the R1 works, because the magwell is universal (think arxx lower) and when changing barrels for different chamberings, the upper receiver/action may or may not be shorter/longer, the mags themselves only differ based on an internal spacer (think modern long action with short action cartridge spacers in the mags). Saami says 3.575- 3.7" on the prc sooooo.... possibly doable but definitely in the grey area. Hodgdon load data shows the 220 loaded to 3.575" but it's the eld not the sierra.... I'm now just wondering how far into that case I could cram that round nosed beast.... trim length of 2.58 vs the 2.62 of the .300wm.... I could very easily talk myself into finding this out the hard way I suppose....
 
This is going to be a very long post, so buckle up. TLDR version: Sorry CraigC, energy matters.

I found an excellent resource that might help us settle our discussion regarding the value of energy: “Conventional Warfare: Ballistic, Blast and Burn Injuries” published by the Borden Institute. Here is the Institute’s description of itself:

“The Borden Institute was established in 1987 at Walter Reed Army Medical Center in Washington, DC, to foster and promote excellence in military academic medicine through the development and publication of military medical scholarship. Now located at Joint Base San Antonio, Texas, the Borden Institute is an agency of the US Army Medical Center of Excellence.”

You can read all of the book by downloading chapters at the this link: https://medcoe.army.mil/borden-tb-conventional-warfare-ballistic-blast

The relevant chapter for our discussion is Chapter 4: The Physics and Biophysics of Wound Ballistics. According to the Borden Institute, the sides in this debate “Energy is a useless metric” vs. “Energy obviously matters” have been talking past each other because there is a key difference in the way that high velocity rounds (impact velocity >2,000 fps) and intermediate velocity rounds (velocity between 1,100 - 2,000 fps) create wounds. Here are a few key points, all drawn from Chapter 4:

  • Wounds from projectiles that impact above 2,000-2,300 fps are fundamentally different than woulds produced by projectiles impacting below that velocity. The book uses the term “explosive effect” which is likely what many hunters call “hydrostatic shock.” Here is the relevant quote (p. 111):

"Since the first observations of 'explosive' wounds occurred when 'high velocity' bullets were fielded in the mid-nineteenth century, it seems reasonable to connect the two. Therefore, this textbook defines high velocity as that at which explosive effects begin to be commonly seen (that is, 600-700 m/s or 2,000 – 2,300 fps). Velocities between 1,100 and 2,000 fps are known as intermediate or medium.”

  • The minimum velocity for a rounded or pointed projectile to penetrate human skin is about 250 fps (also p. 111). This is presumably a higher number for many of the game animals we are interested in. Why does this matter? When a projectile impacts at a velocity close the minimum penetration velocity it will loose a substantial portion of it’s velocity as it penetrates (p. 119). Why does this matter? Spoiler alert: velocity and energy matter to wound creation.

  • The book also provides the equations the describe penetration on p. 119. Here are the key takeaways according to the authors (below bullets are quotes):
    • The greater a projectile’s mass, the greater will be its depth of penetration.
    • The greater a projectile’s residual velocity, the greater will be its depth of penetration.
    • The greater a projectile’s sectional density, the greater will be its depth of penetration.
In other words, no surprises regarding the physics of projectile penetration.

  • Next up, 5 pages of text and diagrams (p. 120 -124) discussing energy transfer to the target because, for all projectiles, the energy transfer to the tissue is what creates the wound.
  • There are two nice diagrams on p. 124 showing the difference between the wound cavities created by low velocity projectiles, which the book defines as below the speed of sound or 1,100 fps) and high velocity. Unfortunately, the book doesn’t discuss intermediate velocity projectiles, presumably because they aren’t typically in military use.

  • Bullet construction matters. There are 5+ pages (end of p.123 and p. 125-129) discussing the effects of bullet shape and construction. Of course, the bullets discussed in this text are FMJ as required by the Geneva Convention. The bullets we use will be somewhat different as they are much more likely to deform with out fragmenting. But earlier in the text, they discuss that it is the rapid change in shape of the bullet, either through deformation (such as “mushrooming” for our bullets and fragmentation in FMJ and hunting bullets), that causes the non-uniform wound tracts that we typically see with high velocity rounds.
    • Blunt bullets will cause a much larger entrance wound as they very quickly transfer energy.
    • Fragmentation and yaw create significant wounding in high velocity, FMJ bullets.
    • Interesting tidbit, a M193 bullet (5.56 fired by the M16A1) “might break up at about 600 m/s [about 2,000 fps] and break up is assured at speeds faster than 700 m/s [about 2,300 fps].”

  • There then follows 10 pages (130-139) discussing the physics of wound creation, particularly the four mechanisms of energy transfer in tissue: cutting, stretch and shear, compression, and heafiny (heat energy transfer). Cutting and heating are the only direct effects of the bullet (that is only tissue in direct contact with the bullet are cut and heated) while stretch, shear, and compression are indirect (that is energy is transferred to tissue the bullet does not contact).
    • Temporary cavity depends on the tissue. It tends to be small in lungs but large in liver, heart, and brain.
    • The volume of the temporary cavity is non-linear with respect to velocity, p.134; in other words, increasing velocity 20% will cause a much larger than 20% increase in the temporary cavity volume.
    • The more energy that is transferred, the greater the temporary cavity.
    • “Cavitation is not usually significant when the striking velocity is less than 1,000 fps…”
    • Referring to a particular a set of experiments, “Clearly, temporary cavitation contributed to the size of the wounds…”


I’ve been reading this for about 2 hours and am still digesting it. Time to get some of my paid work done. So what are the takeaways? Energy matters because energy is what does work and creates the wound. Higher velocity equals greater energy (because energy increases with the square of velocity). Bullet construction is very important. Ideally, we want a bullet that will penetrate into the vitals then substantially deform as it passes through the vitals, transferring a lot of energy into wounding the vitals. Some of us may prefer that the bullet maintain enough velocity (and diameter) to make an exit wound for blood tracking. Some of us may prefer a bullet that fragments or “explodes” inside the vitals creating the largest possible wound to the vitals.

So my conclusion is that, if you use a bullet that is designed to deform and transfer all or nearly all of it’s energy within the vitals, then using energy to choose between cartridges is a useful approach. After reading and thinking about this, here is how I would approach choosing a cartridge:

  • What is my quarry? How far will the bullet need to penetrate to reach the vitals? How likely am I to be shooting through bone or other tissue that could cause the bullet to lose too much energy before reaching the vitals or not reach the vitals at all? How likely is my quarry to injure or kill me if my bullet fails to reach the vitals?
    • Deep penetration will favor heavy, high sectional density bullets, although velocity also helps.
    • Deep penetration will also require a more stoutly constructed bullet so that it takes longer to deform.
    • Likely shooting through bone will require a very stoutly constructed bullet and perhaps even a solid.
    • These three points above suggest that as the animal gets bigger, and more likely to injure me if my bullet doesn’t reach the vitals, a large, heavy bullet is going to be a better choice.
  • Regardless, more energy is better, but how much energy is really required? And how much recoil am I willing to tolerate? If the animal could kill me, I’m willing to tolerate a lot of recoil.
  • At what range do I need or want to take my quarry? This will go along way into choosing the cartridge for the bullet I want to use. I will want my bullet to impact at at least 2,000 fps so it will cause significant cavitation wounding. So which cartridge will deliver the bullet I want to use to the range I need at >2,000 fps? This is the cartridge I would use.
  • Using intermediate velocity rounds (striking velocity below about 2,000 fps) is a different discussion since the bullet will not cause significant cavitation wounding. Here bullet diameter is king and we need enough mass and sectional density to penetrate to the vitals. This is why CraigC is adamant that energy doesn’t matter. When shooting pistols, more energy doesn’t matter, as long as you have enough to reach the vitals.
Going back to the example that CraigC keeps referring to (150 gr .308 @ 3,100 fps and 3,200 ft-lbs; 220 gr .308 @ 2400 fps and 2,800 ft-lbs; 300 gr .44 @ 1,450 fps and 1,400 ft-lbs), why isn’t the 150 gr. .308 obviously the best choice for large, heavy game like the buffalo he loves to show off? It would be, if you could design a 150 gr bullet that would reliably punch through heavy bone, continue to penetrate all the way to the vitals and then and only then rapidly deform as it passed through the vitals of the buffalo. Since this is very difficult to do, the 150 gr bullet is not the best choice.

I would ask CraigC and others who have hunted buffalo why is .375 H&H firing a smaller diameter bullet of the same weight (300gr) as CraigC’s .44 or even lower weight (260gr) considered an excellent large, heavy game cartridge. Could it possibly be the extra 1,000 – 1,300 fps in velocity?
 
Being one of the handful of hunters here on THR who has hunted, killed, and stopped charges from thick skinned dangerous game to include multiple Cape buffalo and elephant I’m going to throw in my $.02.

Craig, while I don’t agree with his “fire ant” style of delivery is not wrong. Neither are most of the other posters on here. If we take the posts in context.

You cannot compare the terminal effects of a bullet on a human or deer to the terminal effects of bullet to a thick skinned heavy 1,000 Lb + animal.

Will a frangible light weight high velocity bullet absolutely pound a deer or other thin skinned light boned critter into the dirt? It absolutely will!

And a slow moving large bore will too! No doubt about it.

A light weight high velocity bullet can and has been used on DG to terminal effect multiple times. Roy Weatherby smoked at least one big Cape buffalo bull with a .257 Wthby using a soft point of the time period. He did so to “prove” his hydraulic shock trumps all marketing campaign.

If you want to go hunt Cape buffalo with a high speed quarter bore you are asking for trouble unless everything goes perfect. When it does go perfect and gets into the lungs it’ll kill a buffalo just fine.

The bigger and the thicker and the more adapt at survival a critter is the less they are affected by hydraulic shock and explosive energy transfer.

There is a reason why many PH’s will not use a round with less than .45 diameter that produces a minimum of 5,000 FtLbs ME. And many prefer a .50 caliber pushing closer to 6,000 FtLbs ME, if they are hunting in wild elephant country.

I’ve met several PH’s who use .375, 9.3 or various .400-416 calibers and are on the precision trumps horse power side of the fence.

All however use quality solid or controlled expansion bullets in heavy for caliber weights that provide deep straight line penetration.

I can tell you without pause as I’ve seen it with my own two eyes, that a Cape buffalo once adrenalized will not even flinch to multiple .470 NE rounds to the chest. It’ll kill them but by the time it does you’ll be smashed into a fine goey pile of hyena bait if things go bad.

The only reliable stopper for a hyped up buffalo is a CNS shot. Same goes for a charging elephant. And unless you’ve shot several dozen elephant in the brain on a frontal charge the chances are you’re going to mess up the shot. So use something that’ll pass all the way through the head and get into the neck or possibly knock them out with a near brain shot.

That takes a combination of diameter, energy, bullet construction and shot placement.

In a nut shell the lighter and thinner the animal the more they are affected by rapid expansion, energy transfer and velocity.

The bigger, thicker and tougher they are the more you need to start thinking about deep straight line penetration and diameter.

There are different tools for different jobs.
 
Last edited:
The buffalo pictured below took one 300 Gr .375 H&H round through the top of the heart. He went about 20 yards and keeled over grave yard dead.
Zimbabwe 2008 181.jpeg

This buffalo bull took two .470 NE 500 Gr bullets the first in a 500 Gr Barnes X punched trough both lungs the second a solid punched through a single lung and stopped up in the neck muscle both were a bit low.

IMG_0594.jpeg

We gave the bull about 20 minutes and could hear his labored breathing about 100 yards back in the thick Jesse brush. The PH and I approached him in extremely tight cover and the instant the bull saw us at about 15 yards he launched into a full charge. The PH and I we’re both carrying .470 double guns and the instant the bull jumped up we both hammered him with a 500 Gr solid Squarely in the chest just above the breast bone. The bull showed no reaction to taking a pair of .470’s delivering over 10,000 Ftlbs of energy, my next shot was aimed at the forehead and my bullet deflected on a small tree if you look at the right ear you’ll see a perfect outline of a sideways .470 bullet that pierced the ear then harmlessly grazed the neck.

The PH fired his second barrel hitting the bull just under the spine and turning him, giving me enough time to do an emergency reload and sending my next bullet into the side of his neck breaking the spine and killing the bull. You can see that hole just below the graze mark.

I‘ll ask the question here. Did energy matter in that charge?
 
Last edited:
The buffalo pictured below took one .300 Gr .375 H&H round through the top of the heart. He went about 20 yards and keeled over grave yard dead.
View attachment 1188859

This buffalo bull took two .470 NE 500 Gr bullets the first in a 500 Gr Barnes X punched trough both lungs the second a solid punched through a single lung and stopped up in the neck muscle both were a bit low.

View attachment 1188860

We gave the bull about 20 minutes and could hear his labored breathing about 100 yards back in the thick Jesse brush. The PH and I approached him in extremely tight cover and the instant the bull saw us at about 15 yards he launched into a full charge. The PH and we’re both carrying .470 double guns and the instant the bull jumped up we both hammered him with a 500 Gr solid Squarely in the chest just above the breast bone. The bull showed no reaction to taking a pair of .470’s delivering over 10,000 Ftlbs of energy my next shot was aimed at the forehead and my bullet deflected on a small tree if you look at the right ear you’ll see a perfect outline of a sideways .470 bullet that pierced the ear then harmlessly grazed the neck.

The PH fired his second barrel hitting the bull just under the spine and turning him, giving me enough time to do an emergency reload and sending my next bullet into the side of his neck breaking the spine and killing the bull. You can see that hole just below the graze mark.

I‘ll ask the question here. Did energy matter in that charge?
Great story and pictures thanks.
 
The buffalo pictured below took one 300 Gr .375 H&H round through the top of the heart. He went about 20 yards and keeled over grave yard dead.
View attachment 1188859

This buffalo bull took two .470 NE 500 Gr bullets the first in a 500 Gr Barnes X punched trough both lungs the second a solid punched through a single lung and stopped up in the neck muscle both were a bit low.

View attachment 1188860

We gave the bull about 20 minutes and could hear his labored breathing about 100 yards back in the thick Jesse brush. The PH and I approached him in extremely tight cover and the instant the bull saw us at about 15 yards he launched into a full charge. The PH and I we’re both carrying .470 double guns and the instant the bull jumped up we both hammered him with a 500 Gr solid Squarely in the chest just above the breast bone. The bull showed no reaction to taking a pair of .470’s delivering over 10,000 Ftlbs of energy, my next shot was aimed at the forehead and my bullet deflected on a small tree if you look at the right ear you’ll see a perfect outline of a sideways .470 bullet that pierced the ear then harmlessly grazed the neck.

The PH fired his second barrel hitting the bull just under the spine and turning him, giving me enough time to do an emergency reload and sending my next bullet into the side of his neck breaking the spine and killing the bull. You can see that hole just below the graze mark.

I‘ll ask the question here. Did energy matter in that charge?
Thanks for the perspective based on experience. Your final question leaves me somewhat confused. Are you saying energy doesn't matter? If so why do many professional guides require rounds with a minimum of 5,000 ft-lbs of ME (per your previous post)? I guess I would answer that yes, energy mattered in that charge. Do you think you would have gotten the same result with a 520 gr bullet from a .500 S&W magnum? If so, why not use one since it would allow more than two shots before needing an emergency reload?

I don't think that there is anything in your posts that contradicts the information from the Army's textbook I posted above. On the largest animals penetration is the key problem. Consequently, you have to use a heavy, high-sectional density bullet. Controlled expansion or solids help the heavy bullet retain its energy so it can continue penetrating.
 
One, final (I think), note: The overall takeaway from the Army textbook is that the choices we see hunters and guides making actually make sense. The wisdom of crowds works again! Large, heavy bullets for big animals because penetration is critical. Light explosive bullets for varmints and small critters. Bullet choice shifts from one extreme to the other as the animal gets bigger. High velocity is good, contra CraigC, for two reasons - it greatly increases energy which is what causes wounds, and it allows the hunter to shoot from a greater distance. So why not use both very high velocity and really heavy bullets? Because there is a limit to the recoil that humans can withstand and there is a practical limit to the weight of a rifle a hunter is going to lug around.
 
Are you saying energy doesn't matter?
That is not what he is saying at all. What he is saying is, energy alone is not enough to kill. And while having a good starting point is important, you need energy, bullet construction, shot placement, penetration, and probably a few more things forgetting. Non of them are do all end all, but all are required in combination to make an effective kill.
 
Four out of four pages here are just pecker measuring, and moderators haven't done anything about it...
I don't have the time to read every single page of every thread in the three of four sub forums I oversee. If you see something that is not in keeping with our standards it is up to you to hit the report button to alert staff. I have a full time job and a family. There are times where I might not check in for a few days. So we have to police ourselves and use the report button.
 
That is not what he is saying at all. What he is saying is, energy alone is not enough to kill. And while having a good starting point is important, you need energy, bullet construction, shot placement, penetration, and probably a few more things forgetting. Non of them are do all end all, but all are required in combination to make an effective kill.
Okay sure, but the issue that started this all was a couple of posters stating that energy is irrelevant and just a marketing gimmick. Insufficient energy is a real problem, otherwise we wouldn't see minimum energy requirements from guides and regulations.
 
Okay sure, but the issue that started this all was a couple of posters stating that energy is irrelevant and just a marketing gimmick. Insufficient energy is a real problem, otherwise we wouldn't see minimum energy requirements from guides and regulations.

Nobody in this thread has said energy isn't important or that it is irrelevant in terms of the physics of how projectiles cause wounding. If you can find someone saying that please post the quote. What has been said many times is that energy by itself is not a useful metric for comparing two projectiles or predicting bullet performance on game. You proved that yourself in your own post below.

Going back to the example that CraigC keeps referring to (150 gr .308 @ 3,100 fps and 3,200 ft-lbs; 220 gr .308 @ 2400 fps and 2,800 ft-lbs; 300 gr .44 @ 1,450 fps and 1,400 ft-lbs), why isn’t the 150 gr. .308 obviously the best choice for large, heavy game like the buffalo he loves to show off? It would be, if you could design a 150 gr bullet that would reliably punch through heavy bone, continue to penetrate all the way to the vitals and then and only then rapidly deform as it passed through the vitals of the buffalo. Since this is very difficult to do, the 150 gr bullet is not the best choice.
 
Last edited:
Nobody in this thread has said energy isn't important or that it is irrelevant in terms of the physics of how projectiles cause wounding. If you can find someone saying that please post the quote. What has been said many times is that energy by itself is not a useful metric for comparing two projectiles or predicting bullet performance on game. You proved that yourself in your own post below.
I got bored pulling examples, so here are quotes from the first half of this thread from CraigC:

"Dimes and energy don't amount to a hill of beans."

"You're taking my comments out of context, which is usually that of handguns, where energy doesn't tell us a damned thing." (wombat13 – yes this is the problem. The OP is asking about two rifles cartridges and CraigC keeps telling the rest of us we’re dupes because his experience with handguns is totally different.)

"And you're telling me that diameter and mass don't matter." (wombat13 – actually, no one wrote that. This started because CraigC told everyone that considers energy that they’ve been duped by marketing. No one wrote that mass and velocity don’t matter. In fact, d2wing wrote in the post directly above this one “BTW, I have also said that bigger and faster is better.”)

"I'll say it again, energy is only useful as a marketing tool for selling velocity." (wombat13 - Gee the U.S. Army would be interested to learn that they've wasted the last 80 years studying energy and its effects on wound generation.)

(wombat13: Finally, Craig C gets around to saying this) “Shock does play a role. It's the one thing handguns lack. It's why we have to poke a big hole and let the critter bleed out. Big bore revolvers and cast bullets work with boring regularity but it's usually not instant. Aptly desribed as, "like bowhunting with more noise". I think this is the reason why many rifle hunters have the misconception that they don't work well, no bang-flops.” (wombat13: And this is perfectly true, but he has poisoned the discussion with the wild overstatements I quoted above.)

"It's [energy] utterly useless. Again I ask, what does it tell us? Use my .30-06 numbers as an example."

"It ain't the truth. You only repeated the conventional "wisdom" about energy that is in serious need of an enema. It's okay, a lot of folks still believe the old wives tale, no matter how much contradictory evidence is flung at them." (wombat13: Unnecessarily insulting comment, and by the way, what actual evidence has CraigC posted? Gee I wonder why people aren’t buying what he’s selling?)
 
Last edited:
I left my post ambiguous for a purpose, I was hoping for some meaningful thought and conversation. Robert hit the nail on the head and did point out the obvious. If my shooting had been better in the first place we wouldn’t have had a charge. And once the charge happened if said PH and I would have hit the bull in the head or spine like we should have the near train wreck that followed wouldn’t have happened either.

I was also pointing out that almost perfect shot placement isn’t good enough on some critters. Especially one that is massive and adapted to survive lion attacks, its main predator.

And finally as Robert also pointed out as did I have a sensible starting point, have good straight line penetration, energy, bullet construction, then have the skills to apply them where and when they need to be applied.

It might come as surprise to at least one of our heavy slow big diameter handgun shooters that the owner of Garrett Ammo’s preferred rounds on Texas deer is a .30-06 with 180gr Ballistic Tips. He’s one of my best hunting buddies and I’ve seen him kill just about everything with a big bore pistol and or lever gun.

I think the main argument here is that energy does not necessarily predict penetration. Because Craig is right about that UNITIL you start getting to megafauna then energy weight and diameter start to show their combined merits. Of course you still have to put that bullet in the right place.
 
Last edited:
I got bored pulling examples, so here are quotes from the first half of this thread from CraigC:

"Dimes and energy don't amount to a hill of beans."

"You're taking my comments out of context, which is usually that of handguns, where energy doesn't tell us a damned thing." (wombat13 – yes this is the problem. The OP is asking about two rifles cartridges and CraigC keeps telling the rest of us we’re dupes because his experience with handguns is totally different.)

"And you're telling me that diameter and mass don't matter." (wombat13 – actually, no one wrote that. This started because CraigC told everyone that considers energy that they’ve been duped by marketing. No one wrote that mass and velocity don’t matter. In fact, d2wing wrote in the post directly above this one “BTW, I have also said that bigger and faster is better.”)

"I'll say it again, energy is only useful as a marketing tool for selling velocity." (wombat13 - Gee the U.S. Army would be interested to learn that they've wasted the last 80 years studying energy and its effects on wound generation.)

(wombat13: Finally, Craig C gets around to saying this) “Shock does play a role. It's the one thing handguns lack. It's why we have to poke a big hole and let the critter bleed out. Big bore revolvers and cast bullets work with boring regularity but it's usually not instant. Aptly desribed as, "like bowhunting with more noise". I think this is the reason why many rifle hunters have the misconception that they don't work well, no bang-flops.” (wombat13: And this is perfectly true, but he has poisoned the discussion with the wild overstatements I quoted above.)

"It's [energy] utterly useless. Again I ask, what does it tell us? Use my .30-06 numbers as an example."

"It ain't the truth. You only repeated the conventional "wisdom" about energy that is in serious need of an enema. It's okay, a lot of folks still believe the old wives tale, no matter how much contradictory evidence is flung at them." (wombat13: Unnecessarily insulting comment, and by the way, what actual evidence has CraigC posted? Gee I wonder why people aren’t buying what he’s selling?)

now lets look at what you said

Okay sure, but the issue that started this all was a couple of posters stating that energy is irrelevant and just a marketing gimmick. Insufficient energy is a real problem, otherwise we wouldn't see minimum energy requirements from guides and regulations.

Not a single one of those quotes say that energy is irrelevant. What they do say when read in their context is that bullet energy by itself is not a useful metric for comparing two projectiles. If you took any of them to mean that kinetic energy is not required to cause wounding then you are either not very good at reading or you are just arguing in bad faith.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top