Finn marked 91/30 and the sins of Bubba.

[caribou]

Quite a few 91/30’s were captured during the WinterWar, and most received a going over. Finn stocks, a stacked front sight, Finn sling hangers, a hole drilled in the bottom of the stock, just in front of the magazine, chamber throat extended for the Finn D bullet, and marked with such over the chamber....and what ever brought them into spec, then struck with a 41.....Tikka did a run of barrels for them, I think all are marked 1944...
It’s likely quite a few were retained unmodified, by frontline troops.
I believe that the markings 41 , then the Poulopouls?....spellings hell here......that marked them as Finn property, and that was quickly replaced by SA ownership mark.

After WW2, their guns were sorted and refurbed, various this and that’s done and then smacked with an SA, issued or stored.
A 91/30 that’s mostly original and intact is a score onto itself.
Looking forward to how the stock works out.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

I used to have a copy of the Finn order that stated all captured Russian weapons and others that went in for repairs during the Continuation War were to be stamped with a 41 stamp. I lost a lot of pics when my old computer crashed.
Here’s another of my Finn marked rifles.
It’s a Dragoon dated 1898. It has first series solid barrel bands and a first series handguard that has been cut at the front of the rear sight.
I found this one a few years ago in a pawn shop, while on my lunch break, marked as a 91/30.

 

[morcey2]

Morcey2
From your description of your rifles, I would say that they are not Finn captured rifles, but Finn built rifles.
As part of war aid, Germany gave the Finns a lot of Mosins that were leftovers from WWI. Most of these rifles were in fair to poor condition and were disassembled for parts to build rifles. Those rifles were built much better then the Russian built rifles. They used better stocks and barrels. Check the tang date on your rifles to see what year the receivers were made.
The Winter War with Russia started on November 30 1939 and it ended March 13 1940.
The Continuation War was from June 25 1941 – September 19 1944.
Rifles captured during these conflicts were put into service. Not all rifles pressed into service were marked with the Finn Army SA stamp, unless they were sent in for repairs.
Rifles that were sent in for repairs during the Continuation War were stamped with the Finn Army stamp and a 41 was also stamped on the barrel shank.
This is my 1929 Izhevsk M91 Dragoon. It is double 41 stamped. It would be safe to say that it saw it’s fair share of fighting. The finish on the stock is oil.

Very nice Dragoon. I'm still trying to find one. Not real common around these parts although I have seen one or two up for sale in the last decade.

I have always considered (and this could be wrong) that for a rifle to be "Finn built" it had needed to have a Finnish barrel or a Finnish-commissioned barrel (such as the Belgian "B" barrels or relined P-series barrels.) I just figured that they were repurposed by the Finns and thrown into whichever stock was available and used whichever parts they could get their hands on.

On both of the M91/30s, the receiver dates match the barrel dates. I don't remember what the receiver date is on the M91. I'll have to go look at it again. I picked up the one with the pot-belly stock off gunbroker many years ago. It was covered with a yellow varnish of some sort that definitely wasn't original. I stripped it and refinished it with pine tar and it looks much, much better even though I used tack-store pine tar. I tried to talk my wife into letting me refinish the cabinets in our kitchen with pine tar. She vetoed that idea. I might do it anyway.

I'm going to add more later. I've been working on this post for about 6 hours now and keep getting interrupted.

to be continued....

 

[GunnyUSMC]

Today I decided to start on the stock. I applied stripper to one side to see how it would react with the clear coat that is on the stock.
I used Klean Strip 15 min stripper.


First coat of stripper applied. It started lifting the clear coat very fast.

A little scrubbing with a brush.


Cleaned off with Tilex and water. It is very important that you remove all the stripper.


Here’s what I found under the clear coat and stain.
Bubba has used wood filler to patch some areas on the stock.



I allowed the stock to dry for a few hours before starting on the other side.


Here it is after the second stripping and cleaning. I allowed it to dry for about two hours.
The stock is looking much better, but will need to be stripped one more time to remove small traces of the sins of Bubba.
I had to pry the buttplate off. Some of that clear coat had gotten between the buttplate and the stock.



Here are the damaged area after the wood filler was removed.
If you look close, you can see the Tula star on the stock.



I’ll wait until tomorrow to apply the last coat of stripper.

 

[1976B.L.Johns.]

ARRRGHHHHHHHH........... Wood-filler? What the........never mind.

 

[drband]

I'm amazed that the process worked so quickly. It's going to be worth your time, looks like!

 

[GunnyUSMC]

I'm amazed that the process worked so quickly. It's going to be worth your time, looks like!

Oh, I’m on the fast part right now.
I have to decide what to do with the damage on the stock. I could leave it like it is are make some Finn plug repairs like this.


The part that will take time is the pine tar finish. I want it to look like it’s been on for years.

 

[caribou]

The gouges give it character, but how and when they got there? Any metal splinters showing?

Good to see progress, while it will not be known as original, it’s a far sight better than Bubbas work.


Mosins.........

 

[rdnktrkr]

I've seen a stock repair where the plug looked like a bow tie, I'm sure they used a pattern with a router or something like that and I thought it gave the stock some character.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

I've seen a stock repair where the plug looked like a bow tie, I'm sure they used a pattern with a router or something like that and I thought it gave the stock some character.

When repairing Military stocks to restore them, you want your repairs to look as close to what would have been done if it was done while still in service. Or hide them if at all possible.

 

[H&R Glock]

Gunny, this is one you ought to give up on. I have an old tree stump in my back yard that looks better or more repairable. There has to be a better way of obtaining a used stock with all the old proper cartouches you need. IF NOT.........
With the right backyard equipment, and clay impressions of the markings you want, a set of branding irons can be easily made to replicate the markings you need to create an original stock. (so to speak). Yes a knock off stock
You could sell replicas.... a new stock market.

 

[dh1633pm]

Keep up the good work. I will be checking in to see how the progress goes. I have an M39 that I purchased back in 86. Its one sweet rifle.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

Gunny, this is one you ought to give up on. I have an old tree stump in my back yard that looks better or more repairable. There has to be a better way of obtaining a used stock with all the old proper cartouches you need. IF NOT.........
With the right backyard equipment, and clay impressions of the markings you want, a set of branding irons can be easily made to replicate the markings you need to create an original stock. (so to speak). Yes a knock off stock
You could sell replicas.... a new stock market.

I’ll pass on the stump.
I finished stripping the stock after work today, but the handguard still needs a little work.

 

[caribou]

Shrapnel gouges that were cleaned up? Looks like it.
I’ve had a couple 91 s that were shrapnel sprinkled and one that was genuinely burned a bit.
One M39 I used to own had a metal chunk simply filed down toward the forend, I guess they couldn’t get it out.

If it lacks a 41 to indicate capture, Im still leaning toward a German capture and sales to Finland.
Dang that’s s nice rifle.....

 

[GunnyUSMC]

Shrapnel gouges that were cleaned up? Looks like it.
I’ve had a couple 91 s that were shrapnel sprinkled and one that was genuinely burned a bit.
One M39 I used to own had a metal chunk simply filed down toward the forend, I guess they couldn’t get it out.

If it lacks a 41 to indicate capture, Im still leaning toward a German capture and sales to Finland.
Dang that’s s nice rifle.....

After stripping I checked the stock for metal splinters, but there were none.
It is most likely one of the rifles the Germans sold Finland in 1944.
I think I will leave the damage on the stock as is for now and just do a pine tar finish. If the weather is nice when I get home today, I might start on it.

 

[rdnktrkr]

When my dad worked in small arms at the Anniston Army Depot he said they used a glue and sanding dust to help repair stocks, I wished I had listened to him more about that and a LOT of other things

 

[GunnyUSMC]

When my dad worked in small arms at the Anniston Army Depot he said they used a glue and sanding dust to help repair stocks, I wished I had listened to him more about that and a LOT of other things

I've posted before about how to use sanding dust to patch gouges in wood stocks. It's pretty simple.
Here is what you will need.
Epoxy
Sanding dust from different types of wood
Denatured Alcohol
Small mixing cup
Wood Popsicle stick.
The first step is to match the wood color. If you use sanding dust the same color of the stock, it will end up too dark. When mixed with the epoxy the sanding dust will dry to the same color as when it's wet.
So, just dip your finger in denatured alcohol and then one of your samples of sanding dust. Then put your finger next to the stock to see if the wet dust color matches your stock. It will not so much matter the type of wood you sanded for your dust, just the color. Sometimes you may have to mix some dust to get the color you want.
Once you have the dust picked out for the repair, mix up some epoxy then add sanding dust to make a past, just don't over do it.
Apply your past to the damaged area and allow it to cure.
Then shave it smooth with a file. Your done.

If you use a wood glue to make your filler it will not give you an even color. If oil or solvents get on it, it will start to break down and not hold up long.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

Got home and decided to get on the stock before I got sidetracked with another project.
First I pulled out my Finn mix.
It’s Finn pine tar cut with turpentine. I have it cut very thin so that it will soak into the stock.


With rubber gloves, I just dip two fingers into the jar and rub it into the stock. I then allowed it to sit for about 15 minutes and then wiped it down to remove any finish left on the surface.


Looks like that Tula star is going to show up very nicely.

 

[Bull Nutria]

Wow Gunny you and Caribou know some interesting history about these rifles. Great posts, I really enjoy them!!

Bull

 

[H&R Glock]

Attempting the impossible ought to be worth a medal when it comes to gunsmithing. If you can successfully fill those gouges and axe blows with epoxy/battle bandages I'll award a medal to you!
It's a wonder you didn't turn the stock into your insurance company as tornado damage or lightning strike.
Good luck and keep us posted.

 

[theotherwaldo]

Scars.
Chicks dig 'em.
Apparently, they dig 'em with a pick and a sharpened entrenching tool - in Finland... .

 

[GunnyUSMC]

I decided to leave the scares.
Filling them would not look correct on a Finn rifle. Plugs would be the way to go.
I can always do plug repairs latter if I change my mind.
It’s going to take a few days for the pine tar to cure. Then I’ll rub it down with turpentine to get it ready for the next coat of pine tar.
I will Bone the stock and that will make the stock look nicer.

 

[boom boom]

Gunny, this is one you ought to give up on. I have an old tree stump in my back yard that looks better or more repairable. There has to be a better way of obtaining a used stock with all the old proper cartouches you need. IF NOT.........
With the right backyard equipment, and clay impressions of the markings you want, a set of branding irons can be easily made to replicate the markings you need to create an original stock. (so to speak). Yes a knock off stock
You could sell replicas.... a new stock market.

Um, there are already people doing that in the milsurp field and unfortunately some people are not that honest. The higher the dollar value, the more temptation for fraudsters to try to turn a dishonest dollar. There is a whole roll of shame on people like that over on Gunboards. Replacing a stock is one thing where it is clearly new. Boyds used to sell them for some rifles for example as did the CMP with its own cartouches.

Putting fake arsenal cartouches on a rifle's metal or stock is pretty much considered unethical as these rifles get around and some poor schmoe is gonna get took. That is one of the reasons that collectors get so hostile when someone posts on their websites requests on how to bring a rifle back to new condition like one of those Mitchell Mausers. It is a real sore spot in that particular community.

I've restored rifles from things like barrelled or bare receivers and pretty much always leave some details as erroneous just to keep it from being regarded as an complete original example down the line (like putting an Ishapore parts on a SMLE that never saw India, etc. ) The honest wear on Gunny's rifle makes it actually stand out as an actual working rifle with a history rather than a prettified parts rifle.

I'm not a purist. Some purists argue that basically any cleaning or disturbing the "holy patina" of a rifle forever disfigures it. These are the folks that like the flame people for sporterized versions. In most cases, folks that want to sporterize an old military rifle back off when it is pointed out to them that a) the hundred year old action will not be advisable to fire in .338 Lapua, b) the cost of doing so unless you can do your own gunsmithing is prohibitive, and c) even if you sporterize it, it will probably be less accurate than a Ruger American off the shelf and cost you not only the parts and labor to sporter it, you will actually reduce the value in doing so. There are plenty of Bubba jobs out there as GunnyUSMC seems to find that can be sportered if you know what you are doing without the big hit to value that taking a working military rifle would cause.

The whole pretty rifle thing is pretty much an non-issue in the milsurp market unless you are talking pristine rare examples that often have never been shot or appear that way.

Gunny does it right. His rifles and repairs demonstrate a working military rifle as it was before Bubba rather than a fading bubba-ized showgirl with a thick polyurethane finish.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

I was able to bone and apply another coat of pine tar this weekend. It’s coming along.

 

[boom boom]

Question: Source of Pine tar? I've seen a bit on Ebay along with Birch Oil but not much about the quality of the source--I've seen Tom's Pine Tar Mix on Ebay or some Euro sources but not much else. Have an old Swede T38 stock to refinish.