firing from retention possition

[s&w 24]

where do you index the gun when firing from retention possition? I've seen a few pictures with the gun at the hip with the shooting hand wrist touching the hip right at 3 o'clock and other pix with the gun at mid chest. What do you do and why?

 

[RyanM]

Thumb high on the gun, touching pectoral, pointing left (right-handed). Left arm over head to protect against getting knocked out, and keep it out of the line of fire. Pretty similar to Fairbairn and Sykes's quarter hip position, except with the gun higher up (4-step draw position two, rotated left), and using a pectoral index.

 

[shooter503]

Here is my variation.

If you are right handed the pistol is held so that ball of the right hand is close to the left nipple and the pistol actually lies across the chest with the axis of the pistol in line with the forearm. No bend at the wrist. This is a natural position and it puts the muzzle in a fairly safe position. Wrist and forearm are actually resting on the chest for steadyness. A pistol can be fired from this position very accurately but there is a problem if the pistol ejects to left (some do). Noise and flash are high due to proximity of muzzle to face.

Position the left side of your body towards the threat. This allows the use of the left arm to protect yourself and your pistol. The obvious problem is blowing hole in left arm. Normally keep the left arm rigidly at your side during firing. Only fire with left arm in use if tactically possible, for example making raking blow to opponent's face while firing into his abdomen.

A great advantage of keeping the left side towards the threat is that the draw is partially concealed until the pistol is coming up into position for use. It also seem to me tht this draw is quicker than is possible with the square stances.

 

[BullfrogKen]

shooter503 said: The obvious problem is blowing hole in left arm. Normally keep the left arm rigidly at your side during firing. Only fire with left arm in use if tactically possible, for example making raking blow to opponent's face while firing into his abdomen.

Yeah, that is a pretty big problem. Techniques that allow, or encourage parts of us to be downrange of the muzzle are poor techniques.


Did you learn that technique from professional instruction, or did you come up with it on your own? Some instructors used to teach this or something similar many years ago, until students, a large portion of them police officers, reported shooting their own arms and hands in training.


Retention positions can vary a little depending on where you learned it, and the type of drawstroke they teach. Generally, most schools now teach a retention position with the arm higher, up on the chest than around the waist, indexed tight against the body, with the weak hand kept back behind the muzzle. For weak arm positions, I've seen:

• arm bent tight against the body, hand in a fist against the pecks, to discourage the instinct to grab or push off the assailant
• arm bent, hand behind head, grabbing the back of the neck or shirt, using the point of the elbow to strike, protect, and make distance
• arm bent as above, but held under the chin, grasping the strong side shoulder

The bent and extended arm provides a means for protection and striking, while keeping it behind the muzzle and in control. An extended arm is weak, and can be struck with downward blows so as to very easily pass in front of the muzzle.

 

[shooter503]

A variation on an old technique.

The problem is that, regardless of how safe your initial weak arm position may be, you may ultimately have to strike out to defend yourself. At that point, regardless of your initial position, your body is in danger.

The last thing you need is to put your firearm in a position where the opposition can remove it or control it. A "left side to the opposition" position keeps your firearm as far away as possible from the threat. With my variation your weak arm is safe until physical contact takes place. When physical contact takes place all bets are off using any technique.

 

[bubbygator]

This becomes a lot easier with Crimson Trace lasergrips. With my BHP, I put 18 quick shots in 5 inches on-center at 10 yards, shooting with my upper wrist braced against my hip. This is very confidence-building, but isn't real talent - just using technology.

 

[Azrael256]

Left palm on left pectoral, mid inside forearm of right arm pressed against side, right hand angled outboard about 30 degrees. Squared off at target.

Hand on the pec squares the shoulders and keeps the left elbow pointed 90 degrees away from and behind the muzzle.

I can actually shoot pretty well like that.

 

[tanksoldier]

Keeping your off-hand behind the muzzle is good in theory, but often real-life situations dictate otherwise.

I would rather fend off a knife attack while drawing my weapon than allow myself to be stabbed in the torso so as not to shoot my own hand.

The practice of this sort of defensive shooting is best done with blanks, but to dismiss it entire seems foolish.

 

[VWTim]

I train with a 4 point draw:

1) index hand and obtain a master grip
2) draw pistol straight up until my thumb could reach my right nipple and rock and lock the wrist
3) Hand comes forward and left hand joins the grip in front of my body with my wrists still touching my pecks
4) pistol thrust straight forward and 2 handed grip in line of sights

I hope that makes sense. But when doing 1-2 my left hand is flat on my chest, and only moves when obtaining the gun at 3. This leaved my free hand busy with osmething to do, holding my body while I shoot from a retention position.

 

[BullfrogKen]

shooter503 said: With my variation your weak arm is safe until physical contact takes place.

Literally shooting rounds laterally across your body keeps your weak arm safe? I'm trying to imagine your retention position, as you described it, and I imagine it has the practitioner laying the pistol on, or very nearly on, his left peck. Am I mistaken?

The problem is that, regardless of how safe your initial weak arm position may be, you may ultimately have to strike out to defend yourself.

And once you decide to do that, you Must, MUST, MUST resist the urge to fire the pistol. Once you strike out, you may not get that arm back. Fights more often resemble wrestling matches then boxing exhibitions. Multiple attackers, which are the common scenario, can pry even unextended limbs free. Once extended, the limb is weak and less controllable.


I was once also of the opinion that the practitioner needs an extended arm to repel an attacker. That misconception ended after professional instruction, and the trainer attacked the students full contact, in red suits.


Have you ever taken a handgun retention course?

tanksoldier said: I would rather fend off a knife attack while drawing my weapon than allow myself to be stabbed in the torso so as not to shoot my own hand.

A strike while drawing is different than a strike while shooting, or in between a string of shots. That practice is taught in some schools.

tanksoldier said: The practice of this sort of defensive shooting is best done with blanks, but to dismiss it entire seems foolish.

Actually, try it with airsoft or sims ammo. Those of us who have can induce the practitioner to shoot himself with regularity.

 

[tanksoldier]

An acceptable risk in a combat situation.

After the shooter's round goes thru his arm or hand, where is it hitting you?

Those of us who have can induce the practitioner to shoot himself with regularity.

 

[distra]

When we do the retention drill in our tactical matches we usually shoot with strong arm at 90, pistol canted ~30 degrees, weak hand at our side. Once 2 shoots are fired, we step back in an attempt to increase the distance for follow up shots. Some people like the "close to the chest" method, but I think the "shooting from the hip" method will be faster in a real situation.

 

[shooter503]

Try this position yourself for fun (empty gun).

We tried this position with three people, myself short and stocky, another person tall and thin, the other (excuse me) definately short and tubby. In all cases the muzzle of a small 380, a Sig P230, extended beyond the line of the left shoulder when the right arm was in a natural position (not forced artificially forward). Because of the curvature of the chest the muzzle of the pistol itself is held away from the body even though the wrist is in contact with the chest. With the muzzle in that position there can be no self-inflicted shot, in fact, raising the left arm forward pushes the muzzle up and away. You could, of course, extend your arm and shoot yourself - but you can do that with any technique.

If you are in a retention scenario there are no perfect choices. We can postulate all sorts of different situations with multiple attackers etc, but we can't devise a system that will work in every case.

The advantage of this technique is a fast covert draw, very accurate fire with rapid aim recovery and a free arm to strike if needed. In a bad retention situation I think that is the best you can hope for.

 

[BullfrogKen]

tanksoldier said: An acceptable risk in a combat situation.

After the shooter's round goes thru his arm or hand, where is it hitting you?

But how about in the training environment? Maybe you don't train your techniques live fire. OK. No problem. Maybe you can't because you don't have the facilities to permit it. OK. No Problem.

We do. We literally place Terrible Teds at 3 feet and shoot them live fire from retention. And I know we aren't alone. Other schools and departments teach live fire retention drills in their cirriculum. Is it acceptable for the practitioner to put rounds through his hands and arms when learning a technique inherently risky by design?


I served under a Lt. Colonel that used to like to see his Marines fall out in training on humps from heat stroke - not from a lack of will to continue or heat exhaustion - but "we need to medivac Marines, sir" actual HOSPITALIZED for the weekend heatstroke because it meant we were training for "reality". We'd literally hump for hours under black flag, for several miles, after all water supplies ran out. All he did was create unnecessary and permanent injuries during training.


Yes, rounds that pass through my arms and hands will continue onward. If I need to shoot someone actively stabbing me, and that's the only way I can accomplish it, I guess I'll learn to adapt to life with a mangled arm for a while. But while training to use that technique, to the dismissal or exclusion of other SAFER ones, the impact zone happens to be merely made from foam rubber, plastic, or cardboard. That's a rather trivial thing to be injured over, isn't it?


I'd still like to know if you've actually taken any professional handgun retention training, or how many rounds you've practiced retention shooting in live fire.

 

[Fred Fuller]

The first I heard of such stuff (pectoral reference as Count Two of a four-count drawstroke, plus the hand-to head combo guard and potential elbow strike) was in the mid-1990s, from John Holschen. It sounded genuinely odd to me then, though I have subsequently heard he was teaching it back in the '80s. I seem to have learned a lot since then... 8^). A few go-rounds with marking ammo and Southnarc, Paul Gomez etc. had a lot to do with that learning process.

s&w 24, see if you can get to a class with someone who teaches this stuff force on force full contact. It's the best way to learn it. And it is a critical aspect of your skillset as well.

lpl/nc

 

[shooter503]

BFKen,

You have highlighted a problem. There is a big distinction between what you may have to do IN PRACTICE and what you can do FOR PRACTICE. I have attended courses that did not teach even low retention shooting because of liability problems. What we must not do is to teach a certain technique simply because it is safe when other, arguably more risky, techniques would be better in reality.

Practicing ANY technique can be dangerous if the training is approached in the wrong way. Practicing any technique can be safe if it is approached in the right way.

You mention practicing live fire from a retention position. I do not really consider that practicing retention, it is merely practicing close quarters shooting. Retention would require an opponent actively attempting to take or control your pistol.

If the average person gets into a real retention situation it will probably be a matter of resist or possibly die by your own pistol. If close combat shooting before physical contact takes place does not work then an accidental self-inflicted injury, though unfortunate, may be in retrospect seem to be a good option if it saves your life.

 

[brownie0486]

I'm not enamored with the high retention shooting/positions at all to begin with, but I will use the CAR retention techniques under dire circumstances where it means use it or lose the gun.

Brownie

 

[shooter503]

I was waiting for you to appear. What is the CAR technique?

 

[brownie0486]

It's a combination of elbows used to defend with both hands on the gun, as well as the gun being used to punch/and or fire on those who get muzzled [ how one gets them to be muzzled is pretty interesting as well in this system ].

One of the two techniques I adopted for my own use out of the CAR system I was shown in 2003.

Brownie

 

[shooter503]

What is retention? I would argue that you only enter retention mode when your opponent is moving towards you and physical contact is imminent. Until then the "retention firing position" is a precaution not a requirement.

CCW'ers on this Forum come in all shapes, sizes and physical abilities. Do we stop firing and duke it out with a six foot, 200 pound assailant when contact is made as BFKen suggests in his first post or do we keep firing and risk a self-inflicted injury as tanksoldier suggests?

Realizing my pistol may be shortly used as a suppository I am going to keep firing, sensibly I hope, all the way into muzzling up if possible. In order to make that possible I want my pistol as far away from the baddie's grasp as I can get it. I also want one hand free to fend him off to buy myself time. In my own theory I can go for his eyes or nose with my weak hand and buy enough time to empty a mag in his stomach.

 

[BullfrogKen]

shooter503 said:Do we stop firing and duke it out with a six foot, 200 pound assailant when contact is made as BFKen suggests in his first post or do we keep firing and risk a self-inflicted injury as tanksoldier suggests?

Pardon me? I said what?

 

[BullfrogKen]

shooter503 said: You mention practicing live fire from a retention position. I do not really consider that practicing retention, it is merely practicing close quarters shooting. Retention would require an opponent actively attempting to take or control your pistol.

What is retention? I would argue that you only enter retention mode when your opponent is moving towards you and physical contact is imminent. Until then the "retention firing position" is a precaution not a requirement.

You are confusing a body position or shooting stance with techniques for fighting off actual gun grab attempts. They are separate issues.

The retention position is a combination of body stance and gun handling appropriate for circumstances where one may encounter the possibility of the loss of control of his pistol. Appropriate circumstances include:

• proximity to a hostile actors
• proximity to non-hostile actors
• passage thru portals

The level of retention is subjective to the environment and circumstances. But the general consensus is to make an effort to maximize control of the gun increases as the possibility of someone coming into reach of it increases.

None of these contain the elements of an active gun grab attempt. Defense against grabs techniques certainly ought to have some continuity to your retention position. I'm not going to go into those techniques here on a public forum. I won't do it, so don't ask.

If you notice, I placed no value judgement on the various techniques I discussed for effective retention stances. I specifically mentioned various placements for positions of the weak arm as different schools teach them in direct response to your post, shooter503, citing the ability the strike out with the weak arm. Most every modern retention position focuses on efforts to keep that arm from flailing out in front of the muzzle, even in defense against gun grab techniques.

Your "left side towards opposition" stance ignores the very real and more likely possibility of multiple attackers. This places a decision before you that must IMMEDIATELY be resolved - which attacker do you want to present your gun arm to? Or - do you have another position you revert to based on # of attackers? What shall you do when the second attacker emerges from your right or your rear by surprise?

shooter503 said: There is a big distinction between what you may have to do IN PRACTICE and what you can do FOR PRACTICE. I have attended courses that did not teach even low retention shooting because of liability problems. What we must not do is to teach a certain technique simply because it is safe when other, arguably more risky, techniques would be better in reality.

I'm not sure how I want to respond to that. So . . . . I just won't.

shooter503 said: CCW'ers on this Forum come in all shapes, sizes and physical abilities.

That's right, they do. And they come from various levels of competency and training as well. If you want to believe your technique works, fine. If you want to practice striking out and shooting, that's your risk. Or, you can not practice it, and hope its effective if you actually have to use it. However, I have taken profession training. If you wish to disparage the several examples I cited as stances commonly taught in favor of something better, what are your credentials? Where have you learned or practiced this? Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but, not every opinion is equally valid.

We actually do practice techniques we learn with live fire, and in sims. Our Study Group has decades of experience literally going back to before I was born on training and techniques, and has seen how it has evolved over the 20th, and into the 21st century. We have practitioners who attend schools all over the country. They bring those techniques back for us to practice, evaluate, and compare. Every year, we see roughly a dozen trainers representing different schools come to us, and we see their techniques in use in both live fire and sims scenarios.

shooter503 - No one I know of, not a single one, advocates your technique. All of them would advise against striking out in the manner you describe while shooting. I acknowledge - crap happens, and you do what you gotta do if that's your dilemna. But, all of them, including me, would admonish you to seek out professional instruction instead of relying on a home-spun technique, or one proven to result in self-inflicted injuries. Learn A good retention technique, and practice it, so that you have something good from which to degrade from, instead of immediately starting out using garbage.


I make no bones about disparaging your technique. And I do it from an position of education, not of personal taste.

 

[Ryder]

My position is arms locked tight to the body. Two hand grip. Semi-bladed stance. Gun points out from my belly button. I've practiced this a lot (it's huge fun with hi-caps). To adjust the point of impact the hold is not altered. To aim higher I lean back slightly, to aim lower I lean forward slightly. Lean (not turn) slightly right to hit right and sightly left to hit left. It works well. Not that I am ever far off to begin with, but hey, I am a bit of a perfectionist

Were someone to grab the gun (even though I am ventilating them?) I imagine a quick rotation could easily turn into a hop toss if they don't let go. The position is that "locked in".

I developed this through modification of a one handed hip shooting technique I read twenty years ago (Askins?).

If I need an offensive hit I'd use my feet to crush arches or break knees. I have a very strong kick and generally wear heavy duty footwear.

 

[Glamdring]

S&W 24: I have one of Southnarc's videos he uses two elbow techniques, next time we meet I can show you those.

He basically teaches shooting from position 2 indexed on pectoral, he does NOT expect to get center mass hits. His idea is A) don't shoot yourself & B) shoot opponent somewhere to disrupt him so you can create distance/position to shoot more precisely (like in boxing punching to body to open attack to head).

 

[shooter503]

BFKen,
Your response is based on several misinterpretations.

You are confusing a body position or shooting stance with techniques for fighting off actual gun grab attempts. They are separate issues.

No, I realize that confusion already exists. I am trying to clarify what retention is. I said:

What is retention? I would argue that you only enter retention mode when your opponent is moving towards you and physical contact is imminent. Until then the "retention firing position" is a precaution not a requirement.

================================

We do. We literally place Terrible Teds at 3 feet and shoot them live fire from retention. And I know we aren't alone. Other schools and departments teach live fire retention drills in their cirriculum.

I am perfectly aware of the difference between close-in shooting and physical contact. Your third post implies that close-in firing equals a retention drill. It does not. Close in firing, though advantageous, of itself has very little to do with maintaining possession, retaining, your weapon.
================================

Your "left side towards opposition" stance ignores the very real and more likely possibility of multiple attackers. This places a decision before you that must IMMEDIATELY be resolved - which attacker do you want to present your gun arm to? Or - do you have another position you revert to based on # of attackers? What shall you do when the second attacker emerges from your right or your rear by surprise?

This statement obviously applies to any technique so using it to critique or advocate any single technique is pointless.
=================================

None of these contain the elements of an active gun grab attempt. Defense against grabs techniques certainly ought to have some continuity to your retention position. I'm not going to go into those techniques here on a public forum. I won't do it, so don't ask.

That is one of the biggest "cop outs" that I have seen on these forums. You know all about preventing active gun grabs but you are not going to tell us. Is this some sort of national security secret that we are too untrustworthy to know?
RETENTION=PREVENTING ACTIVE GUN GRABS - is that clear? Retention is not shooting until you have to do something else. The only connection between close-in firing and retention is that the close-in firing may give you a chance to stop your opponent closing with you or give you a chance to back out of trouble and "retain" your weapon.

A "retention firing position" is only the initial preparation for a potential gun-grab, it is not the whole technique which must include actions should physical contact occur. When that physical contact occurs all bets are off and most training for the average individual is "out of the window".