First 1873 Single Action

[dbldown74]

Yesterday I picked up a Taylor/Uberti 1873 Cattleman New Model. I have been fascinated with the history and it's single action. The last one I held was in the 1950's silver and chambered in roll caps.
After cleaning up the shipping oil and working the action (not dry firing) I noticed what I believe to be the cylinder bolt retaining screw backing out (above the trigger first screw on left). I tightened it reasonably well and worked the action a bit more. It started to back out again. I have no intention of breaking it down completely before I've put some rounds through it so I have a question. Is this normal should I tighten it more or loctite? Can the screw be removed or backed out for loctite without further disassembly? Should it be removed and polished?
This will be used as a fun gun and checking the screw every 15-20 rounds wouldn't be so bad but stripping the screw would ruin my day.
Thanks for any suggestions.

 

[flightsimmer]

You could unscrew it until it clears the threads but do not remove it then clean the threads on the right side with brake cleaner or similar product to remove any lube and then blow it dry and put a drop of blue Locktite in the hole and tighten it back up, let it set and then see what happens.

 

[dbldown74]

You could unscrew it until it clears the threads but do not remove it then clean the threads on the right side with brake cleaner or similar product to remove any lube and then blow it dry and put a drop of blue Locktite in the hole and tighten it back up, let it set and then see what happens.

Makes sense. I didn't think about the threads being on the right side and didn't even think about excess oil being the cause. Will give it a try. Thanks

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

STOP!

I HOPE I'M NOT TOO LATE!


It is not normal for that screw to be backing out from simply cycling the gun. Over time, and after many rounds, the screw may loosen slightly, but that is only from the vibration of shooting a bunch of rounds through it.

DO NOT TRY TO REMOVE THE SCREW WITH THE GUN STILL ASSEMBLED!

Don't even try to back the screw out a bit. I just tried for the fun of it. Don't try it. The screws for the hammer, trigger, and bolt are unusual screws. The threads are under the screw head, and that is where the screw hole is threaded, on the left side of the frame. The holes for these screws on the other side of the frame (the right side) are not threaded at all, they are simply through holes.

Here's what happened when I tried to back the bolt screw out of a Colt. As I was backing the screw out, the threads under the screw head became exposed. But I continued a little bit too far, and as the screw cleared the hole on the right side of the frame, the bolt/trigger spring popped the bolt out of alignment with its screw holes, and I could not get the screw back in. I suppose if I had a tapered slave pin I could have lined the bolt up again so the screw could find its way back into the hole on the right side of the frame. I don't have such a slave pin, so I had to take the gun completely apart to be able to line up everything again. Getting the bolt and trigger screws to line up while reassembling the gun is easy because the split bolt/trigger spring is not installed until after those screws are in place.

Not to worry, this Colt has close to ten years of Black Powder gunk inside, so it deserved a good cleaning anyway before I put it back together again.

If I wuz you, I would simply shoot the gun for a while, being aware the screw may back out a bit, then when you are ready take the gun apart and clean any oil out of the threaded holes.

Just so you know, it is common for the screws in a SAA to loosen a little bit over time from the vibration of recoil. Colt used to put little tiny plastic washers under the screw heads of the backstrap and trigger guard screws to prevent them backing out. I have found these little washers to be useless and long ago lost the ones that came with the 2nd Gen Colt that had them. As a matter of fact, I do not recommend putting any thread locker in any of those screws. Take the gun apart and do a good job of degreasing the threaded holes. Then reassemble it. Then keep track of how much the screws are backing out. On this particular Colt I just remember to tighten the screws every once in a while. I never have to tighten the screws more than about 1/4 turn.

Now, I've got to go clean that Colt and put it back together again before I get distracted.

 

[Drail]

Keep proper screwdrivers handy and check those screws when at the range. If one of them keeps loosening up then degrease and Loc tite (blue only). But keep watching it. Thread tolerances on screws and frames can be all over the map. Big bore revolvers will vibrate fasteners loose constantly - just like a Harley Davidson engine.

 

[dbldown74]

Not too late....
I'll be shooting with a screwdriver set handy until I'm ready to break it all down and give it a good look/see.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Good.

Be sure you have good screw drivers. Not regular hardware store screw drivers with tapered tips. The tapered tip will try to climb out of the screw slot and you can wind up damaging the screw slot. I have a pretty extensive set of hollow ground screw bits from Brownells that I have accumulated over the years for messing about with guns. I highly recommend Brownells' Magna-Tip bits and screwdrivers. They are the best you can buy. If you break or bend one, Brownells will replace it for free.

 

[Dog Soldier]

All single action revolvers are notorious for lose and lost screws. We shoot more rounds in one afternoon than frontiersman shot in a life time. Many old Six-Shooters were victims of damaged screw heads from knife blades.

 

[Drail]

I always have a Chapman driver set in my range bag - they're not as good as Brownells but they can save the day. Dog Soldier - when you mentioned people using knifeblades to turn screws I almost got sick. I haven't seen that in so long I suppose I had forgotten. Aye Chihuahua! There has to be a special place in hell for these people.

 

[CraigC]

Using a hollow ground driver that is fitted to the screw head is very important and will prevent boogering up the screw heads. Particularly important on Uberti's as their screws are sometimes soft. The Brownells Colt-specific set is excellent and what I use all the time. You'll be particularly appreciative of the wide, thin bits for the mainspring strain screw and bolt/trigger spring screw. They also have S&W and Ruger sets. The good news is that Colt-style single actions are very easy to take apart and reassemble.

Another thing I've heard mentioned, which I have not tried before, is to put a piece of mono-filament fishing line in the hole as threadlocker. Might be a good idea on the Uberti, as they tend to be filled with oil and Loctite doesn't work unless the parts are completely degreased.

 

[Steve S.]

My USFA 71/2" .45 Colt does the same thing; I prefer just to carefully "snug" the screw (or screws, I carefully check all of them) down during range time. I use an old Colt four head, round (key chain) finger screwdriver to snug the screw. This tool has four hollow ground heads of different widths located at each 90 degree point on the circle - it fits the screw heads perfectly. These handy, key chain screwdrivers (I believe) were standard issue with new Colt purchases of yesteryear - I am not sure of the availability now. Anyway, that is my solution. Good shooting.

 

[BCRider]

Just a note about the tightening torque. Don't go crazy on them. The removal of the screws on a SAA is an integral part of any full tear down for deep cleaning. And if you go Mondo on the screwdrivers you simply risk damaging the slots and perhaps even the threads. Torque on screws of this size are given in "inch-lbs" because no one likes to work with fractions when talking about foot-lbs. And one can easily go way over with a common screwdriver if you don't take care.

It's likely that as noted the screw has either too much oil or perhaps there's a little chip of metal under the head which is not allowing it to sit right or there's a slight burr on the part that rides on the pin which is digging in. Once cleaned up and properly oiled with a light film for corrosion resistance you will find that it stays in place just fine with a firm "pinch" from the screwdriver. For the two smaller pin screws that would be around 5 to 6 inch-lbs. On the larger hammer pin screw more like 7 to 8 inch-lbs. On the frame screws it's more like 3 to 4 inch-lbs. To give you the right idea you can easily do 3-4 inch-lbs with two fingers on the handle without even turning your fingernails white from pressure. It does not feel like much but that's all you should be using. They often feel tighter when removing due to the oil migrating out and the threads getting a higher degree of friction on each other. And many folks figure that's how tight they need to get back to. But DO NOT DO THAT! ! ! ! You'll be WAY, WAY over the proper torque if you do.

If you don't have a torque screwdriver then err on the lighter side and carry the screwdriver with you to the range. If the screws come loose too quickly then use slightly more torque to re-tighten them. Sneak up on the torque amount you use in small steps until the screws stay good for around 100 to 150 rounds. That seems to be about right as I know I'd be reluctant to tighten them to where they stay in place permanently.

I don't recommend any thread locker since it just gets in the way when it's time to tear the gun down for a full cleaning. And on a SAA going into the action depths is worth doing about every 800 to 1000 rounds for smokeless ammo. When it's time for this You Tube is full of good videos on tearing down and re-assembly for the Cattleman.

 

[BobWright]

I like those Brownell's screwdriver bits, but hate those magnetic screw driver handles. Lay it down on the bench and it picks up any loose screws around it:



I solved this by buying some of those interchangeable bit screw drivers from Home Depot. Those bit have a ball detent to hold them, which the Brownell's bit lack. Solved that by drilling and tapping the shank for a small hex head set screw:



I keep Allen wrenches handy and changing bits takes very little time. In fact, I have several made up that more or less permanently keep the bits in place.

Bob Wright

 

[Dog Soldier]

The single action design from 150 years ago may be a mechanical problem today. Ruger had the lose screw action problems. They have removed most of them. The trigger guards continue to need attention.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Again

I agree with BCRider. I have never seen the necessity to put any thread locker or anything else on the screws of a single action revolver (Double action too) I don't want to have to break the thread locker loose if I want to take the gun apart. I also agree that just a teeny bit of torque is all that is needed to snug up the screws. One of my Colts, the upper one in my avitar photo, never needs tightening, the other one, the lower one in the photo, the trigger guard screws tend to loosen a bit over time. I just remember to snug them up when necessary.

Now I really have to get busy and put that Colt back together again before I get sidetracked again.

 

[Speedo66]

Blue thread locker is too strong for small screws like those on the SAA. Permatex makes a low strength purple version designed for screws less than 1/4 in diameter. If you decide to use thread locker, that's the one to use. Sometimes a little hard to find, but worth it for use on sights, scope mounts, etc.

 

[J-Bar]

A bit of Loctite is good, too much can ooze out onto the bolt and trigger inside and really gum up the works.

Trust me, this is not speculation on my part!!

 

[Michael Tinker Pearce]

I got in the habit of checking all of the screws on my single-actions when I clean them. No matter the make or type they all seem to need periodic tightening.

 

[CraigC]

Purple 222 is more specific to the application but blue 242 works just fine.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Thread locker on gun screws is covering up a problem that shouldn't exist.

But if anybody DOES feel the need, then PLEASE don't use the WRONG LocTite compound! You want a low strength thread locker. Medium strength, at the absolute most. They make all kinds of thread locking formulas for different size bolts, different conditions, and different operating environments. Trust me on this...you do NOT want to find out the hard way that you just essentially JB Welded your screws into your gun.

Purple LocTite (Threadlocker 222) Low Strength Thread Locker is the one to use, if you must.

Blue LocTite (Threadlocker 242) Medium Strength Thread Locker at the absolute most.

Stay away from Red LocTite and all other LocTite compounds.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Thread locker on gun screws is covering up a problem that shouldn't exist.

Please explain what this problem is. The Single Action Army has been with us since 1873. Screws have always backed out from the vibration of recoil. That's why that 2nd Gen Colt of mine had the little plastic washers in it, which were useless.

There is no problem. Just check the screws every once in a while and snug them up if they need it.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Please explain what this problem is. The Single Action Army has been with us since 1873. Screws have always backed out from the vibration of recoil. That's why that 2nd Gen Colt of mine had the little plastic washers in it, which were useless.

There is no problem. Just check the screws every once in a while and snug them up if they need it.

Perhaps this is the "norm". But the engineer in me does not accept screws loosening under design loads as something that is to be considered "OK". Fastening hardware should come loose only when someone actually loosens them and not before.

That this can be "lived with" by checking and tightening them periodically is fine, if one is willing to accept that. But if we had to do this with all such hardware for everything in our lives, we'd be spending a significant portion of our lives just keeping the doors from falling off their hinges, our cars from falling apart while driving down the street, and our glasses from falling off our faces.

Hardware that comes loose routinely during normal, design usage is an indication of a deficiency.

 

[dbldown74]

Please explain what this problem is. The Single Action Army has been with us since 1873. Screws have always backed out from the vibration of recoil. That's why that 2nd Gen Colt of mine had the little plastic washers in it, which were useless.

There is no problem. Just check the screws every once in a while and snug them up if they need it.

The problem is that the screw loosens after working the action 5-6 times. Another 25 times and the screw is backed out a full turn. Not from vibration or recoil but simply from pulling back the hammer. I understand checking screws once in a while but I can cock the hammer and watch the screw back out.
Got it out today and put the first 100 rounds through it so now I'll disassemble and look. I'm beginning to think the cylinder bolt might be a bit too tight on the retaining screw which might back out the screw as it moves. Perhaps a little emery cloth fixes it all.

 

[45 Dragoon]

Well, I guess Jim Martin and I are doing something wrong or close to it. Jim told me to put just a small amount of locktite (blue) or nail polish (color not important!! Lol!) right under the screw head and NONE on the threads. Been doing this quite a while now and it works great!! Shoot all you want, take it down with no problems whenever.
There's absolutely no reason to slather it all over the threads! Just a dab under the head of the screw is all you need.

Mike

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

The problem is that the screw loosens after working the action 5-6 times. Another 25 times and the screw is backed out a full turn. Not from vibration or recoil but simply from pulling back the hammer. I understand checking screws once in a while but I can cock the hammer and watch the screw back out.

Howdy Again

I never meant to imply that simply working the action will normally cause a screw to loosen. That is certainly a problem.

What I was saying is that the vibration from recoil will often cause springs to back out a little bit with a SAA. Not a whole lot, I can go through boxes and boxes of ammo before I have to tighten any of the screws on my Colts.

Design loads and such in a mechanism that was designed in 1873, whose ancestry goes back to 1847 with the Walker Colt? Not sure such things existed back then. Certainly, the designers of such mechanisms were smart guys, they did a lot of great mechanical design, but really, when were standard UNC and UNF screw thread profiles developed? I could be wrong, but I'm thinking that was sometime around WWII. Mass production of firearms was one of the hallmarks of the Industrial Revolution. All kinds of standards were in their infancy at that time. Systems of measurement were still not standardized yet. Most of the early firearms manufacturers were using their own proprietary screw designs in those days, I have no idea what the actual thread forms were in those days, and how well they locked a screw from backing out. Not sure exactly when the torque wrench and torque screw driver were invented, but those guys were smart enough to come up with empirical numbers for how much torque to put on a screw to keep it snugged up. By the way, some testing I took part in years ago confirmed that it only takes about 75% of the torque a screw was torqued in at, to make it back out. Engineers knew that a long time before me, that's why lock washers were invented. And that's why those silly plastic washers were installed under the screw heads of my 2nd Gen Colt made in 1973. Unfortunately, unscrew the screws once and the washers became useless.

Kuhnhausen says that Colt changed the screw threads from the 1st Gen to the 2nd Gen, 1st Gen bolt screws and trigger screws were .195 in diameter and 24 Threads per Inch. The same screws were changed to .190 in diameter and 28 TPI for the 2nd and 3rd Gens. Halfway between 10-24 and 10-32. Similar changes for the hammer screws. It looks like Uberti has been using a .182-.185 diameter screw at 32 TPI most recently.

Anyway, the real solution to the problem of screws backing out seems to me to be installing a lockwasher under the screw head. But that would involve deepening the counterbore where the screw head sits, and there may not be enough meat there to do that.

Applying a liquid thread locker is certainly a solution, but you have to be careful to get all the oil off the screw and the screw hole, and not slop it where it should not be. An alternative solution would be using self locking screws with a plastic insert, but I have not seen a cottage industry pop up to supply specialty screws like this for the firearms industry.

Snugging the screws up when needed seems to me to be a practical solution.

P.S. I was typing when Mike suggested nail polish, but that is a great solution too.