First .223 AR Reloads! Ejection direction?

[holdencm9]

40 rounds, no jams. Fairly accurate from my limited skills and efforts. That is, I only had a red dot w/ 2x magnifier and wasn't going for precision at this stage, but still got about a 2.5" group at 50 yards.

I was mostly concerned with the function of the rounds. Half of the rounds I loaded with 23 gr of Varget, the other half, 24gr. With 55gr FMJ-BT Hornady bullets. Both felt just fine and adequately gassed. The weird thing to me was, the 23gr ejected perfectly 90 degrees to the right, or maybe slightly to the rear. The 24gr rounds actually ejected forward, at about 45 degrees from the front, which is really irritating because if the brass goes too far forward down the line, you can't recover it. And I would think the more powerful rounds would be shot more rearward. I suppose it is possible they were ejecting rearward more, but deflecting off the guard and going forward.

One question I have is does anyone cater rounds based on how they eject? Obviously I know for serious accuracy it is probably low on the list of priorities. Also, other than slow motion video of your shots, can you glean much info from the deflection direction?

I have a brass catcher too, but for my first batch of reloads didn't want to use it. If I had any jams with my reloads I wanted to eliminate as many possible sources to pinpoint the culprit. Once I find my load I will revert back to using it.

 

[Reefinmike]

hmm, thats annoying. when i was using varget, 23.4gr if i remember correctly behind a hornady 55gr fmj, my brass ejected and landed 8 feet behind, 8 feet to the right, all within a 2 foot area.

 

[nastynatesfish]

I run 25 gr with 69gr bullets. I'd look at brass, is it sooted up real bad? Mine lands about 3 feet away about 1 o'clock.

 

[holdencm9]

Reefinmike, what powder do you use now? I think the Varget shot fine, but I haven't tried it through the Lee Pro Auto Disk...I can already tell from its consistency it probably won't meter well.

nastynatesfish, the cases all looked good. No significant soot, dents, or anything, of course I couldn't inspect the ones that shot forward of the firing line. I am pretty happy just that they all fired and cycled fine, ejection direction is probably no big deal. I have the brass catcher but it is kind of annoying to use, too.

 

[Sun Tzu warrior]

What type of rifle? Different designs eject differently. I would tend to think this has more bearing than the type of powder and size of charge.

 

[NeuseRvrRat]

the 24gr loads were bouncing off the brass deflector harder

 

[holdencm9]

Sun Tzu, it's a PSA M4-type. I am sure you are right about it having more effect on the ejection. With factory ammo, it usually ejects 6' to the 4 or 5 o'clock position (muzzle being 12-o'clock).

RvrRat, you are probably right, I just would have thought that even the 24gr load would be less powerful than factory. I was actually concerned the 23gr loaded rounds wouldn't have enough gusto to cycle. I guess I found a winner with the 23 gr load if it cycles just fine and ejects to the 3 o'clock position each time. I may try splitting the difference as ReefnMike suggested.

This reloading stuff is fun. Can tinker and experiment.

 

[NeuseRvrRat]

you may also want to make some sort of brass catcher or deflector. it can be as simple as a wooden or PVC pipe frame with mesh or hardware cloth.

 

[mtrmn]

I work up loads based on:
#1 accuracy/group size off a bench
#2 highest velocity while retaining said accuracy
#3 absence of excessive pressure signs

THEN maybe I'll look at the ejection pattern, but usually as long as it DOES eject without malfunction I'm good to go. I have already gone through all my AR's and installed the heaviest buffers and springs that maintain reliable operation. I did this mainly because I also run a suppressor which tends to load the action with more gas pressure than normal and could cause premature wear/tear on all the working parts.

Do a search for "ar15 ejection pattern chart" and you'll come up with a chart that gives suggestions what is needed to move the ejection pattern around. I personally believe this chart has caused a LOT of unnecessary tinkering on AR's over the years, but it IS usefull if you are having real problems.

The hotter your loads, the more forward the brass will eject. Also powder burn rate will greatly affect this as well. There is a certain range of powders on the burn rate charts that perform best with gas guns, even though other powders may border on that range.

 

[mokin]

I saw something about ejection patterns on the 6.8 forum. It appears (or appeared at the time) that there is still a lot of experimentation going on with that cartridge/load/gas system-length-buffer-weigth/etc., etc., etc., and the ejection pattern may help indicate how much pressure the rounds are producing. I looked at this a couple of years ago and couldn't relocate it. I found it very interesting.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Both the 23.0gr and 24.0gr loads are very light IMO. I charge 25.0gr Varget with a 55gr bullet for my bolt action rifle and that's even on the light side. If you are going to make lighter loads i would suggest using a faster powder than Varget. You might want to try H335 or the newer CFE223 powder. Even though Varget is being used in the 223 more than before it's really not a fast enough powder for the most part. (yes, yes, I know it works so spare me all the posts telling me how accurate it is, I use it too)

 

[holdencm9]

mtrmn, thanks for the heads up on that chart. I agree ejection is probably low on the list of priorities, but interesting nonetheless. My 23gr load ejected "perfectly" the 24gr ejected in the "overgassed" region, which is hard to believe. But I agree, any chart like that must be taken with a grain of salt.

Archangel, thanks. Yeah the 23gr is just a hair above the 22.8gr minimum charge in my manual, but it is weird that it ejected "perfectly" according to the chart, and 24gr ejects in the "overgassed" region. It goes up to 26-point-something. I see a lot of mention of ppl using 25gr Varget w/ 55gr bullet, it seems like a tried-n-true load. I will try that next....and next time I get to the store I will definitely pick up on those other powder recommendations and save the Varget (of which I have 4 lbs) for the .308.

Overall not worried, just wondering what info I can glean as it pertains to the reloads. Thanks all!

 

[TexasShooter59]

I have tested Varget with the 55 gr Z-max and it performed well. But, I worked up a Win 748 load I could live with, since I wanted to use Varget for something else.

 

[LennieT]

Brass Catcher

I built this using the smallest PVC I could find at Homedepot $3.55 for 10 feet and two elbows and a "T" about $1.75. I used an old piece of 2 x 4 I had laying around and some old screen tent (an old sheet can be used instead of the screen tent). It works. It catches the brass and drops it on the ground beside the bench. If I put a box on the ground the brass is collected in the box. I have tested it with 223 and 308. You could tie of the bottom of the mesh and the brass would stay in the in the catcher. I just let the brass fall to the ground since I am shooting gas guns and the brass it hot and might stick to the mesh. Don't think the heat would be a problem if you used an old piece of sheet.

Lennie

 

[holdencm9]

Lennie, that is awesome! If I ever get to shooting at an outdoor range I will have to build and bring something like that. Because deep down, I like to see that brass fly! I do have a Caldwell brass catcher, and it seems to work well, but I always fear it will cause a malfunction, by a case bouncing back into the ejection port or something. For my first 100 or so reloads I do not want to use it, to avoid any x-factors in case I have issues. That said, it's probably not worth worrying about, the brass catcher has not caused any problems through about 200 rounds.

 

[mtrmn]

mtrmn, thanks for the heads up on that chart. I agree ejection is probably low on the list of priorities, but interesting nonetheless. My 23gr load ejected "perfectly" the 24gr ejected in the "overgassed" region, which is hard to believe. But I agree, any chart like that must be taken with a grain of salt.

Archangel, thanks. Yeah the 23gr is just a hair above the 22.8gr minimum charge in my manual, but it is weird that it ejected "perfectly" according to the chart, and 24gr ejects in the "overgassed" region. It goes up to 26-point-something. I see a lot of mention of ppl using 25gr Varget w/ 55gr bullet, it seems like a tried-n-true load. I will try that next....and next time I get to the store I will definitely pick up on those other powder recommendations and save the Varget (of which I have 4 lbs) for the .308.

Overall not worried, just wondering what info I can glean as it pertains to the reloads. Thanks all!

Just to be clear---"overgassed" and "too hot" are 2 completely different problems. Just because your weapon ejects into the "overgassed" zone does not mean your loads are too hot.

Overgassed is a term that refers to most carbine-length AR gas systems due to the shorter overall length of the system and usually over-sized gas port in the barrel. It's all about the amount of gas going into the action and the timing of the bolt unlocking. The absolute BEST cure for this is an adjustable gas block, although I still don't own one on any of my 5 AR15's.

I have found that all of mine do fine with H2 buffers and a Wolff extra-power spring. All of mine have the AR15 bolt carriers instead of the heavier full-auto version that you probably have in your PSA. Still all of mine will eject to 2:00 with the hotter loads and 4:00 with the lighter ones.

Also, like I failed to explain fully about the powder, changing powders will help a lot as well. Personally I use A2230, H335, WC844 mil surp, IMR4895 and the powder I use MOST in 223 is TAC. All of these are ball powders except the 4895 and run through a powder measure like water. Their burn rates are more favorable to your weapon's operating system than Varget and much easier to meter correctly. I usually only use the 4895 for strictly accuracy loads, so I weigh each charge anyway.

My shootemup utility load is 24.5 gr TAC and a 55gr FMJ, using a CCI #41 mil primer to light it. The CCI mil primers are magnum primers according to the CCI website, so load accordingly. The regular small rifle primers do fine as well, I used CCI #400 for years with no issues whatsoever. The mil primers just have harder cups to prevent "slam fires" in guns with floating firing pins and are magnum strength allegedly to compensate for harder-to-light ball powders used in most modern military ammo.

 

[oldpapps]

As I see it.... (oh no, the wind bag is at it again!)

Three things determine where the brass lands:
1) Ejector tension.
2) Extractor tension.
3) Amount of gas.

The first two would require breaking down and switching out parts of your bolt to 'adjust'. Save the little 'donut' rings that are available (check out the write ups at Brownells or MidwayUSA or other places).

Number 3. The gas system. What length is the gas system? What is the buffer weight? What is the gas port size? Is the gas key/gas tube fit tight or loose? And a bunch of other things.
The easiest and simplest is to adjust the; bullet weight, powder charge, seating depth, type of bullet, type of powder.

My advise is to find the loading your rifle likes. If this ends up depositing your brass in front of the line, devise something to block it or catch it. I would prefer my weapon to run at it's best.

Oh, good, I'm done babbling.

Hope this helped, but it most likely only gave some food for further thought. So, I guess it may have helped, some.

 

[holdencm9]

Thanks for the responses guys.

mtrmn, I understand the difference between hotter and gassier loads, as it pertains to the gas port size and system length, it just never occurred to me that varying powders could affect it so much. I just figured, hotter round = more gas. But as you helped me figure out, a softer shooting round (as far as muzzle velocity is concerned), depending on the powder, can still cause more gas pressure, resulting in the varying ejection. So it seems Varget is a gassy powder.

As oldpapps suggests, I'll just keep plowing forward with trying out difference loads until I find one my rifle likes, and deal with the ejection direction as necessary. I will definitely take into consideration your powder recommendations. TAC sounds like a good one. Although I found out last night that Varget meters okay in my pro auto disk (+/- 0.2gr at most, which seems fine for practice ammo) but since I am pretty new, I have no commitment to Varget in .223, and am happily looking forward to testing out new powders. Thanks again ya'll