First 38 Special Loads = Crushed Cases

[pcwirepro]

I made my first batch of 38 spl. tonight. My test rounds (no powder or primer) came out just fine. COL was good and there was just enough crimp to remove the bell plus a hair. Neck tension was good and the rounds dropped into my precision round checker (aka $100 RG "Revolving Garbage" revolver) so I loaded up the primer tube and powder drop. The first few went well then came a crushed case. I paid a little more attention to getting the bullets lined up nice and straight as they entered the seating die but still managed to wrinkle a few. I played around with a little more flair but still had problems. Raised the seating but that didn't help either. Am I missing something here? Are there tricks to 38 spl that I need to know?

FYI:
Hornady LNL AP
RCBS Carb dies
Hornady One Shot lube
Mixed brass
Berry's 158 gr FP DS (measured at .357)

 

[joneb]

normally I would guess not enough flare or to much crimp. I have had 38spl brass vary in length from 1.141-1.160" this can cause some trouble. Do you trim your brass ?

 

[Ron James]

I think it is the bullets. I use a Lee single stage and have reloaded thousands of rounds of 38 Special with no problems until! Picked up a thousand rounds of Berrys plated 148 Gr. HBWC. The Berry bullets ( about 10 percent of them ) were over sized and would crush or wrinkle the case. Took the unopened box back for a refund. Only time I ever had that happen.

 

[pcwirepro]

I have had 38spl brass vary in length from 1.141-1.160" this can cause some trouble. Do you trim your brass ?

I have never trimmed brass. I reload for 9mm, 40 S&W, .357 SIG, 45 ACP and now 38 Special. Never trimmed a piece of brass.

The Berry bullets ( about 10 percent of them ) were over sized and would crush or wrinkle the case.

There were a few at .358 but I didn't think much of it. Hmmm.

 

[joneb]

Never trimmed a piece of brass.

Check your 38spl brass length, this cartridge head spaces on the case rim so manufactures are not to concerned with the case length, rimless brass head spaces on the case mouth and the case length must be to spec.

 

[W.E.G.]

Load SINGLE-STAGE until you get these issues figured out.

 

[joneb]

I have had 38spl brass vary in length from 1.141-1.160"

Sorry the 1.160 is a rare instance the cases were out of square, the average of the long cases I've encountered is 1.155" but the point I'm trying to make is if you adjust your dies for the shorter brass you will have trouble with the longer brass.

 

[Oyeboten]

Check Bullet diameter...and check Cartridge Case inside diameter, and see if Bullets are maybe too fat for the ( typically re-sized ) Cases.

Also make sure Bullets are set by hand onto the cases or slightly into the Cases, set with near perfect verticality, lest they tilt and crush the Case that-a-way once under pressure, which they will do, too.

Edit:


Cases not true or 'Square' at their Mouths should be corrected prior to trying to Load or re-load them...and, ideally, of course, one's batch of Cases should be made to all be the same overall length or height for a uniform Crimp to be done without undue fussing.

 

[BADUNAME37]

You really should consider trimming the cases. Without trimming, the cases many not be all of uniform length, so you set the seating / crimping die for a short case and put a long one in and voila: crushed case becuase the case was too long to be crimped properly - it would be just like if you set your crimp die down too far which I am positive would result in a crushed case!

 

[sniper5]

I'm going to vote for too much crimp. Try backing out the bullet seating depth completely, then screw the die in on an empty case with the ram completely up until you feel it just touch the case mouth, then about a half turn and lock the ring. Then put in a loaded round with a bullet seated at the correct depth and turn in the bullet seating adjustment until it just touches and try that. Should be right. If the crimp die is set too low that will wrinkle a case for sure.

 

[Walkalong]

I have loaded a bunch of Berrys 148 Gr HBWC's, DEWC's, 125 Gr HP's, 158 Gr HP's and various other lead, plated, and jacketed bullets without crushing cases. I do trim my .38 Spl brass.

Inconsistent case length can bite you in the belling operation or the crimping operation. If you adjusted for a minimum bell on a long case, the short ones may not get any. If you adjusted your crimp on a short case, the long ones could get way too much. Either situation could lead to a crushed case.

 

[rbernie]

I played around with a little more flair but still had problems

I vote for not enough flare.

 

[jfh]

It isn't clear to me if pcwirepro is loading on a 3-die or 4-die set. If he's loading on a 3-die, then his combined seater-crimper die is probably set so low as to bring the crimper into play on those short cases. If it's on a 4-die setup, then I suspect that the crimper is set too low, period. Add either one of those to a #2 / flare die not flaring enough--and you will get the crushed case.

IMO.

Tell us a bit more about your die setup, pcwirepro.

Jim H.

 

[BADUNAME37]

...the crimper is set too low, period....
...#2 / flare die not flaring enough--and you will get the crushed case...

Remember, though, that all has to be "compared" to a CONSTANT, and that CONSTANT is CASE LENGTH -which should ALL be identical!

 

[jfh]

"...that CONSTANT is CASE LENGTH -which should ALL be identical!"​

Well--that's true, at least within the typical constraints of (manufacturing) "tolerance." I know you can get to a 'constant' length, and usually varying by an amount that varies with the price of the trimmer.

Personally, I haven't trimmed my 38 Special cases. Last time I did a random check, case lengths varied by about 0.017.

I use a 4-die (Lee) system, with the 4th / FCD die set up to crimp only, and run them in a Lee updated 'original' Turret. When I begin to do a reloading 'run,' I do a trial assembly during which I 1) adjust the seater, and 2) checking the crimp. I use the longest, randomly-selected case to build a good round, adjusting the FCD as needed. The flare, set long ago, doesn't need to be tweaked.

I don't remember the last time I crushed a case--perhaps 5,000 rounds ago.

Jim H.

 

[pcwirepro]

Thanks for all of your pointers. Tonight I'll check 50-100 cases to get an average. Case length would explain the random crush. But I guess a misaligned bullet would explain that too. I'm using a 3-die setup and try to bell an absolute minimum to maintain neck tension. Do many of you crimp in #4 when reloading 38 special?

 

[jfh]

I dunno if you need to check 50-100 cases, pcwirepro--but certainly ten or so. My 38 / 357 cases tend to be "batched" for the first several reloads; then they end up "jumbled" and that is when I do my measurements.

I suspect the 4-die paradigm is pretty much in the minority. I do that because I frequently do "load development" runs on the Turret. That is, I load ten rounds, then (typically) change the powder charge, run another ten, and so on. However, I test numerous different bullets, too--in 38 Special, ranging from 110-115 on up to 160s. So, a long time ago I found the simplest setup to get running well with was one which used a 4th die to crimp and avoided a combined / 3-die configuration.

(FWIW, my practice / range ammunition recipes are usually run on a progressive (Lee Load-Master).

 

[BADUNAME37]

I have a batch of say 200 cases that have been cleaned, primed, belled and I have them in a pile. If Maximum Overall Length (MOL) should not exceed 1.680" and the Trim-To length is 1.670", I will take my caliper and quickly sort out those that are 1.675" and longer (I used to just throw them all through the case trimmer, but found I can work pretty quickly with the dial caliper).

So, I go through the 200 cases, it probably takes me maybe 20 minutes, to a half hour, tops. Now, out of the 200 cases, there may be 29 that are over 1.675" and out of those there may be one case which is right at 1.680" or perhaps a bit longer than MOL - especially if I am shooting hot loads.

The calmer the load, the more times you can shoot before trimming is necessary.

What I am saying is I have a system down and it works for me! I ran through over 1,000 .223 cases last winter that way. I ended up trimming perhaps a third of them or so.

I use RCBS dies and I have some Lee Factory Crimp dies. For my pistol loads, I have four dies per caliber, as I use the FCD as a DEDICATED DIE that is adjusted once then never adjusted again, as I make sure my cases fall within the range of the crimp, i.e., being just above center of the cannelure.

I may sound "anal" - however, I used to always trim EVERY CASE, at EVERY RELOADING! At least I am now able to have a bit of "play" in my measurements (and that 'play' is 5 thousandths of an inch - 0.005" variance allowed).

 

[griz]

I'm more of a troubleshooting sort of a guy instead of a "try something and see if it works" type. So i would slowly do single rounds to see if the bullet was hanging up as it was seated or if the case was being crushed as it was crimped. Until you know that it's hard to fix the problem.

 

[EMC45]

"Too much flare or not enough flare?" I doubt this is the problem....The problem is a mixed batch of brass and none of them were trimmed. The too much/not enough flare is only exaserbated by the lack of trimming. Trim your brass, and then load a batch seating and crimping in 2 seperate operations and I bet you will see a whole world of difference!

 

[pcwirepro]

Guess i better invest in a trimmer. I have been spoiled by reloading calibers that head space on the case mouth.

 

[joneb]

I trim my 38spl brass to 1.145" and my .357 mag brass to 1.279" the difference is the with of the spacer washer supplied with my RCBS 38spl/.357mag dies.
Whoops that washer is .134" I corrected the .357 trim length.

 

[pcwirepro]

I trim my 38spl brass to 1.145" and my .357 mag brass to 1.275" the difference is the with of the spacer washer supplied with my RCBS 38spl/.357mag dies.

I wondered what that washer was for. I bought my dies used w/o paperwork.
Man I love this site.

 

[joneb]

I wondered what that washer was for.

The washer is used in the case flare, seating and crimp stages only.

 

[Doug b]

Pcwirepro if you want to keep your expansion to a min. and not shave a cast bullet check out the Lyman M die.