first AR in 30 years.

[tark]

I am in the market for my first AR in 30 years. My last was a Colt H-BAR in '87 or thereabouts. I have about 1200 to spend.

I know nothing about ARs, except they are more accurate than just about anything else and the reliability issues were solved decades ago. I like the fact that parts and mags are so cheap and available. I like the fact that aftermarket mags seem to work just fine, unlike my Mini-14, which has developed some very annoying habits lately. Can't get through a 20 round Ruger Mag without at least one stoppage.

Need some input. I live twenty miles from Rock River Arms and I worked with Chuck Larson both at Springfield Armory and briefly at Les Baer's shop, before he and Mark left to start RRA. I was considering an RRA gun.

What are your experiences, both with quality and customer service? What should I get?

 

[MaterDei]

You have chosen the best time in history to invest in an AR. $1200+ can be spent in many ways. I recommend the following:

1) Buy a good quality, mil-spec AR. Rock River Arms, S&W, Stag, etc. all fit the bill.

2) Get some good quality training

3) Buy ammo and mags

Have fun.

 

[tark]

I do want a Mil-spec and I need training In how to properly care for the thing. I know how to break one down for cleaning, but I have heard that there are many DOs and DON"Ts in the actual cleaning procedure. I need to learn them.

 

[benEzra]

I have a Rock River (16" Wilson 5.56mm chrome lined barrel, midlength gas, adjustable stock) and like it. Fit and finish is excellent. However, the gas key was not well staked (mine is close to 10 years old, though, so they may be doing better now) and the castle nut was not staked. A LE armorer staked the former for me, and I staked the latter, so it's now good to go. The buffer tube is "commercial" rather than "milspec" diameter, but I've never changed the stock so it's not been an issue for me. It's been a good gun, and the *only* failure I've ever had was an apparently out-of-spec round of Tula steel-case that locked up the bolt.

Had I to do it over again, I'd definitely go with a lighter barrel profile, though. My RRA has a very thick barrel profile (not sure if it would qualify as HBAR, but it's stouter than most AR barrels), and it has a LOT of weight up front, good for bench shooting but not so great for fast transitions. For an all-around rifle, I'd suggest a lighter barrel profile, perhaps a BCM midlength with a 16" lightweight or "pencil" profile barrel. If price were no object, I'd probably get a Noveske (also 16" midlength). Daniel Defense is also very highly regarded. In your budget, don't forget to budget for optics, if you want to go that route. I'm currently torn between a 1-6x illuminated variable for mine (great for range shooting and longer distances) vs. an Aimpoint PRO for HD and under-200-yard plinking.

I'd also avoid muzzle brakes, which greatly increase noise and blast; flash suppressors are much more pleasant to shoot.

As for cleaning, the biggest "Don't" is "don't lose the little cotter pin out of the bolt carrier when field stripping", and "don't pull the trigger to drop the hammer after the lower is separated from the upper". Also, don't bother sticking anything up the gas tube to clean it (no need, and it risks leaving debris in there), and don't bother scraping carbon off the bolt tail (no need). The biggest "Do" is "lubricate it well with a quality synthetic oil". Keeping it well lubricated will make cleanup easier (well oiled carbon will wipe off with a rag, no scrubbing needed) and improves reliability. AR's run fine wet and dirty, but dry and dirty can cause issues, as with any firearm.

 

[md7]

Hi Tark,

I've no experience with rra, so I cannot provide any input on their products. Sorry, sir.

I've had good experiences with the following, and they can be found within your price range.

BCM
Colt
Daniel Defense (maybe just out of your $1,200.00 range)

I've also owned an M&P 15 in the past. It was decent rifle, and gave me no problems.

For $1,200 I'd give some thought to a colt 6920/6720 and an aimpoint. Or a bunch of mags and ammo.

Best of luck to you, Tark.

 

[Jackal]

I'd check out a $800 FN for as close to mil spec as you can have without involving NFA. Here's a link. For $800, its pretty sexy: http://www.cdnnsports.com/fn15-223-16-bl-m4-rem-ch-6-pos.html#.VqA911LgmUk

From there, I'd take a step down to Ruger or S&W to save money or I'd build my own if I wanted a bunch of special features. RRA has never really been on my radar.

 

[1911 guy]

BCM, RRA, Windham Weaponry (they're the old Bushmaster reorganized without the Cerberus Group problems), Spikes, etc. S&W is good if you avoid the base models and choose something from the lineup you need. The problems with Colt are financial, not gun making. If you can find a Colt that suits your needs and budget, they're making some of the best rifles they've ever made right now.

If the rifle you want costs 1200, so be it. But if you can find a suitable rifle for 800, spend the rest of your budget on mags and ammo, then schedule a class for next year.

 

[GooseGestapo]

For less than $1200 I got a RRA NM. 1/2 moa rear sight, A4 handle ('16 rules allow scopes), Wilson 1/8" stainless match barrel, jpi trigger. After ~300 round "shoot in" its near 1/2moa with Sierra 80grn.
I shot a 465/500 with it in my first service rifle match. I hadn't even shot it except at 100yds to establish base zero and work up loads. It was my first match, too ( but not last!).

You can get a LOT of AR for 1200! My other two might be worth that much!

 

[tark]

excellent info guys, thank you much.

Jackal, that is EXACTLY what I want. I'am not a fan of any sight that isn't made out of metal and I like the carrying handle. I have about 40 rifles, only one has a telescopic sight. Thanks to you all.

 

[LeonCarr]

You can get a BCM or Colt 6920 for way less than 1200 and they are much better quality than the RRA, S&W, or Stag.

Building your own means you can pick best quality parts and maybe have enough left over for quality optics.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

 

[W.E.G.]

You can do a lot (or a little) with an AR.

What do you want to do with yours?

For instance, a 16" carbine is not a great choice for shooting at long-distance.

If you want to shoot distance a lot, add some budget $$$ for optics.

Even if you want to shoot short-range, seems like a lot of guys still want optics.

 

[tark]

99% of my shooting will be around my place, never more than 150 yards or so. I have seen an alarming increase in the number of coyotes lately and I have an outdoor cat, who has the most amazing talent. If I see him sitting in the crotch of his favorite tree that means that he has smelled or seen a coyote.

Beyond that, about all I will use it for is plinking and setting off Tannerite.

 

[David4516]

I'd suggest a lighter barrel profile, perhaps a BCM midlength with a 16" lightweight or "pencil" profile barrel

+1

Mid length gas system and light barrel is what I'd go with if I had to do it all over again. My rifle has the thicker barrel with the cutout for the grenade launcher, this makes it "nose heavy". Also it's got a carbine length gas system. I am shooting with irons, and in hind sight, that extra couple inches of sight radius you get with the mid-length would have been nice...

 

[tark]

Looked at a Bushmaster, can't remember the model, it looked like a standard M-4. Had a carry handle. Local Gander mountain has it on sale for $699. NIB.

I've heard that Bushmasters had (have?) some issues. Would this be a good buy for a 1,000 rounds or so a year gun?

 

[ColoradoShooter77]

I take issue with the base model S&W comment, the M&P sport is a fantastic rifle, no problems at all with mine, 1500 rounds downrange.

 

[WestKentucky]

Buy a lower and upper separate unless you want exactly what is sold as a complete rifle. Too many options out there well within your price range to settle for close enough.

 

[bullzeye8]

I would definitely recommend going for the rock river. Mine is very high quality and smooth shooting. Now reliability problems at all, they have a moa accuracy guarantee (or better depending on model) and the two stage triggers they put on them are much better than any other AR in the price range.

 

[Sebastian the Ibis]

This is the best time ever to get an AR.

I second Ben Ezra's cleaning comments, and Jackal's FN recommendation. Also, I agree with the comment above about getting a pencil/lighter barrel - not a deal breaker, but handy.

A couple friends of mine have Rock River ARs and they are fine weapons. A couple of years ago, I almost got one. However, the prices of ARs have dropped significantly over the past year or two - but the prices of Rock River ARs have not. Jackal's FN or a Colt 6920 can be had for $800-ish nowadays, there is little reason to pay more for an AR unless you want different features (i.e. NM barrel, rails, etc.). However, if you have friends at RRA or a personal connection - by all means get one.

If you want a project, get a Palmetto State kit, and buy the lower of your choice locally. I have no mechanical or gunsmithing training or aptitude but I can put them together while watching a movie in my living room.

The AR is an amazing platform because so many people use them, tinker and comment about them. Folks on message boards like this know what to look for with the gas key staking job, almost every little bug has been worked out.

Also, the aftermarket is vast. While you can get almost anything, the only thing I would add to that FN in your situation is a tritium front sight post so that you can see it better when shooting at night:

http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/sights/front-sights/fits-ar-15-a1-a2-front-only-sku892415125-13170-32006.aspx

It is a $60 dead nuts reliable night sight.

 

[agtman]

I have about 1200 to spend. * * * I live twenty miles from Rock River Arms and I worked with Chuck Larson both at Springfield Armory and briefly at Les Baer's shop, before he and Mark left to start RRA. I was considering an RRA gun.

Well, for starters, there's still a "glut" in the AR-market, which means it's a buyer's market, so $1200 can fetch you a top tier, mil-spec, quality AR - whether it's a 16" carbine or 20" rifle.

RRAs are okay, but since you live in Illinois, how far are you from Lewis Machine & Tool?

 

[ilmonster]

Agreeing with others on the quality of BCM, Colt and Daniel Defense. I chose a mid-length BCM AR as it is as close as can be to mil-spec without being a select fire M4 (yes, M4's aren't mid length gas systems). Mil-spec meaning barrel coated under front sight, bolts and barrels magnafluxed and pressure tested (bolt also shot peened), screws properly staked, M4 feed ramp cutouts on the barrel, etc.

For mags, I've been pleased with Magpul and D&H made GI mags (which BCM sells under their name too).

As others have said, I've kept mine simple with a sling and Aimpoint PRO red dot sight. The rest of my time and money has been buying ammo and learning how to shoot the thing. Nothing worse than seeing an AR that someone has "mall ninja'd out" (RDS, laser, white light, rails everywhere, DBAL etc.), but can't hit a thing with it.

Regarding maint., keep the bolt well lubed and it will run for tens of thousands of rounds (Google articles by Pat Rodgers).

Let us know what you get!

 

[Reloadron]

Need some input. I live twenty miles from Rock River Arms and I worked with Chuck Larson both at Springfield Armory and briefly at Les Baer's shop, before he and Mark left to start RRA. I was considering an RRA gun.

If I were you I would start with a phone call twenty miles down the road and try to set something up with your old co-workers, like lunch? Really, since you know these guys I would at least talk to them and visit them. You tell guys like this what you have in mind and they will tell you what you should consider buying.

Your budget buys more AR than most people will ever need. Right now even higher end AR rifles are well within your budget.

The beauty of most AR rifles is the ease with which parts can be changed with a minimum of tools. A few decades ago the AR selection process was easy with only a few manufacturers making the rifle, today it seems an endless list of manufacturers with whistles and bells. While I suggest you continue to think about your wants in a rifle I would absolutely be wandering 20 miles up the road and seeing a few old friends and co-workers.

Ron

 

[Kingcreek]

Tark, off topic I know but weren't Larson Bros involved in Eagle Arms (Coal Valley) at one point before RRA? might have been pre Les Baer.
I still have one of the Eagle Arms ARs. I had, and a buddy of mine still has a Springfield Armory AR.
I have some hours on a RRA carbine that has had no issues at all.

 

[tark]

Kingcreek, to the best of my knowledge, they were not. I believe they went from Les' shop, in 92, to forming RRA . But there was a period of time, a few months , where I lost contact with them. It is possible they were involved with Eagle Arms.

 

[Warp]

You have chosen the best time in history to invest in an AR. $1200+ can be spent in many ways. I recommend the following:

1) Buy a good quality, mil-spec AR. Rock River Arms, S&W, Stag, etc. all fit the bill.

Dont' listen to this guy ^ as this is rather incorrect

 

[HGM22]

While I think a RRA, S&W, Stag, Bushmaster, etc. are fine commercial grade rifles, they are not up to the standards that BCM, Colt, DD, etc. are (that means both parts, design, AND QC). While FN builds rifles for the military, it is not believed that these same rifles (sans NFA parts) are sold to the public. The lower tier guns will serve fine, but why not get a better gun for the same (or lower) price?

If it were me I'd get a Colt 6920, 6720, or OEM1/2 for the best value. They are incredibly cheap ($800-900) for their quality. They are not "just a name", but actually build rifles to spec (chrome lining, MPI testing, proper staking, better steels, etc.). Check out some some of Molon's posts.

You could also spend a little more and get all kinds of options from BCM. I'd recommend a 16'' (enhanced) lightweight mid-length. Mid-length is said to reduce parts wear.

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/AR-15-16-Mid-Length-Group-s/27.htm

So if it were me and I wanted to save $200 I'd get the Colt, otherwise I'd get the slightly better features of the BCM (both are built to high specs, the BCM just has features many of us like).