First cap & ball revolver ... what all do I need?

[LightningLink]

Just got my first cap and ball revolver today. It's an excellent condition used Pietta Remington Model 1858 New Army .44 cal. The pistol and accessories look like they came from Cabelas and would cost around $290 to buy new, I paid $160 shipped. I know NOTHING about these and want to make sure I do everything right and use the right accessories.

Here's what I got:
* Pistol with holster
* Extra .44 cal cylinder with cylinder pouch
* Powder flask
* 200 .44 cal Wonder Wads 1000 Plus wads
* 65 .44 cal balls
* Lee double cavity .451 bullet mold

So now the question is, what else do I need? To make it easy I'll just make a list of specific questions:

1) Do I need things like extra nipples and wrench?

2) Do I need a capper or can it be done by hand?

3) Lubes - Do I any additional lubes for shooting? Or are the wads enough?

4) Cleaning - Do I need any special solvents? I've used Break-Free for all of my "regular" guns including when I shoot corrosive ammo have always had good results (ie, no rust ever).

5) Except for powder and caps, Cabelas has a "Starter Kit" for $59.99 that would seem to have all of the above. Is this a good way to start?

6) #11 Caps - should I use Remington or CCI?

7) Powder - should I use Hodgdon Triple-7 FFFg or Pyrodex P?

8) While reading the instructions for the Wonder Wads, it says to lube the bore, cylinder, and everything else with Wonder Lube only. Is this really necessary? Do I really have to use Wonder Lube only if I use their wads?

9) Charging the cylinder - Do I use the powder flask to charge the cylinders? If so, how do I know how much powder to use? Do I use a full tubes worth? Cabelas description of the flask (it's one of theirs) says the spout holds 24 grains of BP, but the manual that came with the revolver says to use 35 grains of FFFg or 28 grains of Pyrodex P. Hodgdon's website says to use 20 to 25 grains with a 44 cal 1858 w/wad. So can I just use the powder flask spout with Triple-7?

10) Seating the bullet - Assuming I use a wad, do I just seat the bullet firmly until it stops?

I know I know, I should have just bought a book with this many questions. Thank you for taking the time to read this much and I would greatly appreciate any answers or advice you can provide.

Thanks,
LL

 

[4v50 Gary]

Welcome to the wonderful world of blackpowder shooting.

Do I need extra things like nipples and wrench?

Extra nipples are not absolutely necessary but it's a good idea to keep a couple on hand. A wrench is a must as you should remove the nipples when cleaning the cylinder.

Do I need a capper or can I do it by hand?

A capper is not necessary and sometimes if the caps upset (turn on their sides), it can be more trouble than it's worth. I have a capper but what I like doing is pinching the cap slightly and placing in on by hand. For me this helps keep the cap from falling off the nipple and jamming the action. Try it by hand first and if you don't like it, get a capper.

Lubes. Do I need additional lube for lubing? Or is the wad enough?

The lube serves both as a safety (firebreak) in theory and prevents the spark from jumping from one cylinder to another (no chain fire machine gun effect). I believe Elmer Keith (or was it Charles Askins Jr?) had another theory that it was loose caps that slammed back upon recoil against the breechface and then ignited (which is another reason why I like to pinch them slightly). The secondary purpose of the lube is to lube the cylinder face and barrel. It's messy but keeps the dry fouling down and the revolver running longer. I use to use Crisco but since I rendered a deer, I use "Sparky" brand (I named that kill Sparky) buck grease. Cheapo me.

Cleaning. Do I use special solvents?

You may buy special black powder solvents and there are a variety on the market. Most of us mortals use hot soapy dishwater though. Works great for me and the hotter you can take the water, the better (helps promote drying). I would not rely on Break-Free to dissolve the salts on blackpowder or corrosive ammunition. Funny but I was just reading the 1946 British Army Sniping Manual and they recommended water or even saliva (I think Wallace Gusler of Colonial Williamsburg called it intermastic solution) to clean a bore from corrosive compounds. Break Free would be good as a preservative after the barrel is cleaned with hot water (or just water if that's all you've got).

Cabela's starter kit

That's much more than what I started with when I first got started. You may want a ice cream stick or equivalent for applying lubricant. Get it free. Old t-shirts or rags (wipe down of exterior before replacing into holster). Water (wipe down your hands so you don't get it on your equipment or non-BP guns).

#11 Caps. Should I use Remington or CCI?

Remington's advantage is that the sides of the caps are stamped with ridges so they tend to clamp onto the nipple better. CCI are smooth. I've used both with success and I generally choose the lower price one. Cheapo again.

Powder

No opinion. I bought one can of pyrodex and have a couple around (gifts) and one of 777. I hate the smell of pyrodex (dirty socks - I prefer rotten eggs) and haven't tried the 777.

Wonder Wads

No experience here. Here's my 2 cents worth on lubes with wads. Perhaps using Wonder Wad lube delivers optimal performance (lubricant) with Wonder Wad, but I'm not into target shooting. I don't use wads and instead keep a small jar of old cornmeal or rancid farina (USDA stuph) which I scoop (I have a 380 or 9mm cartridge case glued onto an arrow shaft) and pour atop of the powder. I drop my ball and then apply the crisco over the ball.

Charging the Cylinder

I've loaded straight from the flask but you could be playing with a handgrenade if there's a lingering spark. It's much safer to use a powder measure and pour from the flask to the measure and from the measure into the cylinder's mouth. Some folks buy those fancy revolver stands but you can make it yourself if you know how to use a saw & screwdriver.

BTW, regardless of what powder you use, use a powder measure. Get an adjustable one as you'll be experimenting with various loads to see what works best in your gun. I have a Ruger so I use as much as I please (it's designed to be filled up to the top and survive).

Seating the bullet. Assuming I use a wad, do I just seat the bullet firmly until it stops?

You stop when you can't compress anymore. I ram the charge as deep as my mortal strength allows me. I don't want an airgap between the powder or wad and ball. That's why I use cheap stuff like rancid Farina or cornmeal. Can't eat it anyway.

If you have anymore questions, feel free to ask. We've got plenty of guys smarter than me here who can and do help.

 

[TerryBob]

Black Powdwer Revolvers are a lot of fun to shoot. I have been shooting them since about 1977 or so. I have two, one of which is a Remington New Model made by Euroarms. Mine shoots best with 30 gr. FFF Goex. I only use black powder. I wont get into all of the reasons that I stay away from the modern stuff but it just seems right. I mean.....it's a historical weapon, shoot it the way that it was meant to shoot. Ok, I am getting into reasons.

Black Powder cleans up easier than anything that I have. I simply remove the grips, cylinder and loading lever and throw the whole gun into a sink full of very hot water with dish liquid. Let it soak for about a half hour or more and watch the water turn black. After that, drain the sink and rinse with hot water from the faucett. While rinsing out the cylinder, fill it up and watch to see if water is draining out of the nipples. Run a brush down the barrel and swab out the cylinder with a rag. Now shake out water from everwhere and get out the hair dryer......yep, I said hair dryer. Blow dry the insides until you cant hardly hold the gun from the heat and then do it some more. Now just oil it up and put it back together.

I have just described my quick clean up. Ever so often, I take the gun apart completely and scrub it up.

I don't use a capper because you need to slightly bend the caps like Gary said. Caps do come off and a chain fires will happen because of it. I had 3 rounds go off once. Talk about wierd recoil.

I have been using the wonder wads over the powder lately and have not experienced a chain fire. If you really want to be safe, use the wads and grease. Use one or the other or both. It will chain fire if you dont. I have had several chain fires during my learning years. None since I started greasing and keeping an eye out for loose caps.

Well, that's all the time that I have. Feel free to ask if you need to know more,

TerryBob

 

[Mark whiz]

LightningLink.................

You've been given some good advice there!

I use both the lubed wads and patch grease over the balls in my 1858 - double-protection against chain-fires and lots of lube to ease things along.

I've shot 3fg Goex Black, 3fg Goex ClearShot, Pyro P, and 3fg 777 out of mine and I have to say I prefer either the black or the 777 most of all. 30gr of Black gives good results, but you have to shoot reduced loads with 777 since it is more powerful..........25 to 27gr of it is a Max load for the Pietta.

Personally, I use a capper - mainly because I have BIG fingers and don't handle the caps too well. I usually use CCI #11Mag caps, since I use those on my rifle as well - never had a problem with them falling off or miss-firing. BTW - nipples tend to hold onto the caps a little better as they age (metal expansion I reckon).

One last thing - that .451 mold may not be the best for this piece. I use .454 balls and I would prefer to use conicals of at least that width. Make sure that you get a ring of lead cut off each ball/bullet as you ram them into the cylinder - if you don't get that ring, the bullet needs to be a little wider.

 

[TerryBob]

One thing that I forgot to mention in my quick revolver clean-up. I also remove the trigger guard before cleaning.

Mark made mention of the .454 ball size. Most 1858s that I have seen use this size ball. Mine uses a .457 best but most use the other.

TerryBob

 

[HogRider]

Hi guys. Hope you don't mind that I drop in here. I am getting ready to load Black Powder for the first time ever this weekend. I had one quick question right now:

Pyrodex P or Triple 7 ?

What's the difference besides the easier clean up. Does Triple 7 Feel, smoke and recoil like Black Powder?

BTW, I am going to load 45 Colt cartridges for my Vaquero with it.

I will also forward this thread to a buddy of mine, who just bought a Pietta Remington 1858 and has zero experience with black powder loading either.

 

[Mark whiz]

HogRider............

Pyro P will make more smoke than 777, although both make less than true black powder.

777 does clean up easier than Pyro, too.

But make sure you reduce the load if going with 777 since it is 10 to 15% more potent. 25 to 27gr of 777 is the Max load for the Pietta - while it will hold 30gr of Pyro or black with no problems.

 

[LightningLink]

"Hope you don't mind that I drop in here" .... No problem. The more you learn, the more I learn

Thanks for all the answers and advice. Naturally, answering one question leads to more, so here goes:

A) Powder measure - With cartridge loading (which I've done a little), powder is measured in weight. Is BP also measured by weight? Or by volume? All the adjustable powder measures seem to be based on volume.

B) Adjustable powder measure - Do I even need a flask if I use an adjustable powder measure? Can I go straight from the powder can to the measurer using a funnel?

C) Charging with wads and grease - so I put in the powder, put in a wad and seat, put in the ball and seat tight and then fill the rest with a grease (such as Crisco)? Sound about right?

D) Lube - Is something like TC's Bore Butter what you would use to lube up the bore, cylinder face and such?

Shopping list so far:

* Cabelas nipple wrench w/6 nipples
* TC U-View Powder Measure
* TC Bore Butter?
* HHHg or Hodgdon Triple-7 powder
* Remington #11 caps

Thanks again,
LL

 

[4v50 Gary]

Powder - blackpowder is measured by volume. Your measures are marked by volume.

The Can - yes, while you may go from the can to the measure, the can is not conducive to pouring (so expect wastage) but there are funnels you can buy. However, some ranges don't allow you to use a can or to pour from the can. That's a pound of powder and besides being the last hand grenade you'll play with, it's not as wieldy as a flask or horn. Buy a flask and you can find them used at Rendezvous or black powder meets.

Grease - yup. After the ball is seated, grease is applied over it. I generally make it flush with the cylinder mouth.

Lube - I don't lube the bore and especially the cylinder. It'll promote fouling.

 

[Mark whiz]

Here goes............

A) Black powder & it's substitutes are measured by volume - not weight. I've tried weighing out volume-measured loads and shooting them accordingly.................it was significantly less accurate than just volume-measured charges.

B) Like Gary said, measuring out of the can is a pain........... possibly a very BIG pain Here's a little cheat when it comes to measures & flasks.......most flasks can double as a measure. My cylindrical brass CVA flask will measure exactly 27gr of powder if I put my finger over the spout and open the dispense valve until the flask tube fills up - but you need a measure to verify the flask's ability. I LOVE the see-thru measure for my rifle.................but it's too big & bulky for the revolvers. The short brass measures CVA makes for these things (up to 30gr in 1gr increments) are perfect.

C) That's the EXACT loading proceedure I use.

D) You can use the bore butter to lube over the balls, but otherwise I wouldn't try to lube anything else - it isn't needed. You'll find that you will be wiping off the pistol after firing off a cylinder as it is.

 

[Josey]

I like www.dixiegunworks.com

 

[Dave Markowitz]

A few years ago I wrote an article intended for newbies to shooting cap & ball revolvers. You can read it here .

HTH.

 

[LightningLink]

HTH

YES! Yes it does! Excellent article!!

I pretty much now have everything I need except the nipple wrench, powder measure and powder. The first two are on order and I'll need to get the powder locally to avoid the hazmat fee. I didn't find any CCI caps locally but I did find some Remington "40% hotter" #11 caps.


One last question ...

I found a local gunshop that carries some BP supplies. They have cans of "Hodgdon Pyrodex Pistol Pellets" (odd in that I thought Hodgdon and Pyrodex were two completely different brands). The pellets are 44/45 cal 30 gr equivalent and are specifically meant for .44 cal cap & ball revolvers. They come 100 to a can at $18.60. They seem rather expensive compared to a pound of BP, but do they work okay? I was thinking of getting a can of American Pioneer FFFg (available locally at $23.50) and one can of these pellets to see how they work.

Thanks again,

LL

 

[Mark whiz]

The Pyro Pistol pellets (Pyro P pellets) work just fine in the revolvers. Since that is the max load for a Pietta - is works out well.......just drop in a pellet, add a wad if you choose, press in the ball, top with grease, cap & fire.
I will say that I've gotten slightly better accuracy using thr 3fg loose 777 power than with the pellets, but not by too much since these things aren't necessarily tack drivers anyway. BTW - the pellets ARE much more expensive to shoot than loose powder, usually from 1/3 to 1/2 more so.

Personally I would steer clear of the American Pioneer Powder. This is a 2nd or 3rd reincarnation of a powder last known as CleanShot. The stuff really is VERY clean - but it is slightly down on power compared to all the other powders except Goex ClearShot (which is REALLY wimpy). But the biggest knock against this powder is that it picks up moisture from the air really quickly, and as such, tends to go bad quickly. I had a 1/2lb of it literally go bad on me overnight - and that's after being kept in a climate controlled area for it's whole life.

For powders, your best bets are 3fg777, 3fg Black, and Pyro P loose (or the pistol pellets). None of these will let you down.

 

[Gatofeo]

LightningLink, see my post entitled, "How to best use a cap and ball revolver."
I've been shooting cap and ball revolvers since 1970 and gained a lot of experience since then.
I'd suggest you use FFFG black powder if you can find it. Pyrodex P is okay but slightly more corrosive than black powder.

Black powder is measured in weight, in drams or grains. The space that particular weight of black powder occupies is then used as a standard.
Let's say you measure out 20 grains of FFFG black powder on a scale and pour it into a fired .357 Magnum case.
The powder won't come near the top of that case, so you file down the top of the case (without the powder in it) until the mouth of the case is level with the point where 20 grains of black powder rests.
Now, you have a measure that holds or "throws" 20 grains of FFFG black powder.
If you measure 20 grains of Pyrodex on a scale, and pour it into that same case, the case will overflow. Why? Because Pyrodex is designed to be used on a volume basis, rather than a weight basis, as a substitute for black powder.
As far as I know, ALL black powder substitutes are designed this way, to be used on a volume basis with black powder.
Thus, pound for pound, you get more shots with Pyrodex P than you do with black powder.
But there's a bugaboo lurking in that can of Pyrodex. It's more corrosive than black powder and generally not as accurate. Others may disagree but this is my experience.
However, accuracy is a relative term. In my Colt 2nd generation 1851 Navy I occasionally get six balls into a 1" circle at 25 yards from a benchrest. With Pyrodex I can expect 2 or 3 inches.
But let's face facts: if I'm plinking, a 1, 2 or 3-inch group will likely allow me to hit that bean can at 15 yards, if I do my part.
When I want the absolute best accuracy from my cap and ball revolvers, to create bragging targets or long-range shooting, I use black powder. When I'm plinking, I sometimes use up my dwindlling stock of Pyrodex.
Get black powder if you can, but if you can't Pyrodex P will work just fine. I don't know about the other black powder substitutes, I haven't tried them.

 

[foghornl]

Hodgdon's is the maker of Pyrodex, Pyrodex 'Select' and Triple Seven powders for BP firearms.

BP is measured by VOLUME, NOT WEIGHT. Below is a cut & paste from Hogdgon's website about the special caveats of using the Triple Seven.

All charges of Triple Seven should be measure by VOLUME not weight. A simple, adjustable black powder measure is the correct tool for this job. All loads listed in this brochure are measured by VOLUME.

Triple Seven is a high energy product designed to provide the muzzleloading hunter with higher velocities when used in the same VOLUME as black powder. To duplicate a black powder load velocity using Triple Seven, you must decrease the powder charge by 15%. *See WARNING below.

*WARNING - Failure to follow the recommendations for use of Triple Seven could result in injury and/or death to the shooter, or bystanders and damage to property.

 

[LightningLink]

Black powder is measured in weight

Care to elaborate on this? I have not read or seen or heard anything anywhere to suggest that BP is measured by weight. I understand that Pyrodex WEIGHS less than BP, but you still measure the same VOLUME when charging. From CVA's website:

Because Pyrodex® is bulkier than blackpowder, it is used on a volume-to-volume equivalent with blackpowder. In other words, a powder measure set to measure 70 grains of powder would yield the same results ballistically with either Pyrodex® or blackpowder, but the measured charge of Pyrodex® would actually weigh slightly less than the same measured charge of blackpowder.

I think I understand what you are trying to say, but I believe the "Black powder is measured in weight" statement is misleading.


I did end up with American Pioneer Powder only because that's all I could find locally. I won't have any other selections until the next gunshow and the hazmat fee to have some shipped is ridiculous for just one can or two. I also got one can of the Pyrodex Pellets to see how those work.

Thanks again for all of the information. All that's left now is to get my butt to the range and give it a try.

LL

 

[Mark whiz]

I hope you got the 3fg American Pioneer powder - the 2fg will be disappointing.

One thing about it.............cleaning will be a snap!!!!! The most fouling you'll see on the gun will be from the percussion caps!

Update us on how it works, once you get the chance to try it out.

 

[Gatofeo]

Perhaps I've confused the issue. But my point remains.
To establish a baseline, black powder is weighed.
My example of the fired .357 Magnum case showed that in order to know how much powder a charger holds, you must weigh that powder.
I'm speaking solely of black powder, not any other propellant such as Pyrodex, 777 or whatever.
Black powder establishes the standard.
In the old days, people often made their powder chargers from fired cartridge cases, cut to a certain length to hold a certain weight of black powder.
Today, there is such a variety of chargers available that most people don't bother making them.
Commercially available chargers are made to hold a certain weight of black powder within their volume. That's why they're marked 50 grs. 80 grs., 100 grs. and so on.
Other propellants used for black powder shooting --- Pyrodex, 777 and so on --- are designed to occupy the same VOLUME as a given weight of black powder, and deliver similar pressures.
Now, when the books say that black powder is measured by volume, they mean that one uses a charger containing a certain volume to measure each charge.
But the fact remains that the charger has been previously calibrated by weighing how much black powder it holds --- NOT the weight of the Pyrodex or 777 it holds --- but regular black powder.
Once calibrated, the charger is used to measure how much black powder, Pyrodex, 777, etc., is used.
You can buy chargers that are already calibrated and marked as to how much weight of black powder they hold. These are used interchangeably for black powder and its simulants such as Pyrodex, 777, etc.
If all propellants used volume as a standard of measurement, the black powder books would list how many cubic centimeters of black powder, Pyrodex or 777 are to be used.
They don't. They list weight. For convenience's sake, we use chargers that are known to hold a given weight of black powder.

 

[LightningLink]

Mark,
Yes, I did get 3fg.

Gatofeo,
Thanks for the clarification. Putting it that way makes more sense. What confused me was that all the BP powder measures are based on volume. When you threw weight into the mix, I didn't see how it applied. Since I'll use a powder it won't really come into play day to day, but it's still important to know.

Thanks again for all of your invaluable advice!
LL