First Single Action - 44 or 45

[kayak-man]

OK, It sounds like the .41Magnum, 44Magnum, and 45 colt will all do almost anything I need them too. It sounds like they are all very versatile, and no matter what, I can't go wrong.

There really is only one option.... get a 41 with a 5.5" pr 6" barrel, a 44 with a 7.5" barrel, and a 45 with a 4.6" barrel

Fortunately, I'm just getting into reloading, so I don't need to worry too much about factory ammo prices. Buds has the 41 and 45 at about 100 less than the 44, so it will probably just boil down to whichever I run across at the best deal.

Thanks for the input, but by all means, please keep it coming!

And yes, when I eventually get one, I'll be sure to post pics

Chris "the Kayak-Man" Johnson

 

[kayak-man]

After much agonizing, I did the only thing I could think of - asked a coworker to pick one of three numbers, then shouted "44, 41, 45". I'm going to be getting the 45 colt Blackhawk after I've had a chance to pull a few more shifts.

I was looking at the convertable model blackhawk that can handle 45Colt and 45ACP. Since I'll be reloading (have the press, just need to get it set up and get components.) I thought in the long run that might be a good way to go (I'll be reloading 45ACP anyways.) As far as strength is concerned, how does the blackhawk convertable model stack up agaisnt the regular one? can it still handle the heavy Ruger Only loads? can the 45ACP rounds handle 45Super (for those unfamilar with it, its a wildcat cartridge using trimmed 308 cases and loaded to a much higher pressure. I'm not planning on jumping into wildcatting right away, just planning for the future.) I would mostly be shooting cowboy loads to practise with, with some hotloads every couple months to make sure I can still shoot those, and some Ruger Only loads every now and again to keep the skills up, and, well, because I can

Robert G. - I couldn't find that Paco Kelly article, any chance you could point me in the right direction? Where was it published originaly?

Thanks for your help everyone.

Chris "the Kayak-Man" Johnson

 

[Prosser]

Chris: I agonize over this one. I'm not a 44 mag fan, because I like a bigger bullet. The 45/454 can be loaded to the equal of any 44 magnum load.
However, you do have the issue of how well Ruger does cutting the .45 Colt
holes in the cylinder. If they are tight, you can pretty much use a wide variety of ammunition. If they are not, you can't, without stretching cases, etc.

The advantage of the .44 is that it's the best place to start, and have a custom .45 Colt made, with tight chambers, and an excellent barrel.

However, when I start thinking about this one, I really think why go with the Ruger? BFR's are now made short cylinder, with 17-4 stainless, same stuff Freedom Arms uses on their guns. The BFR's can use Ruger parts, IIRC, and, while a bit more expensive, I would rather have a BFR then a Ruger.

What do I end up buying? a. 475 Linebaugh Freedom Arms for the same price.

 

[kayak-man]

Prosser: Like you, I prefer the bigger/slower bullet. I'm mainly looking at the Ruger because it has a stronger frame and cylinder than most of the other 45s out there like Cimaron and Uberti, but isn't as expensive as the BFR. My budget for the revolver is under 500, so the Freedom Arms and BFRs are quite a bit out of my price point. I'm definately going to do some more research to see about how well Ruger bores the barrels and cylinders, but I think it will probably be fine. If not, then I'll look into the .44s. As a general rule, i try to avoid paying more than $500 for a gun. I'm not really good enough to notice the difference. Naturally, there are some exceptions to this rule - the AR and FAL that I plan to get one day will probably cost a bit more than that.

What kind of loads do you find yourself shooting out of your 475? What barrel length do you have?

Thanks,

Chris "the Kayak-Man" Johnson

 

[MCgunner]

I don't need no stinkin' ACP cylinder....I handload. That fact gives me options I haven't explored to date, like .41 magnum, for instance. Anyone that likes centerfire calibers and is on a tight budget really needs to consider such things.

 

[Sunray]

Comparing the .44 Mag to a .45 Colt is an apples and oranges thing. The Mag is big bullets going fast. The Colt is big bullets not going fast.
The Mag does have the advantage of letting you load to .44 Special velocities. Or use .44 Special ammo. The Colt you need to load down.

 

[ghitch75]

go real old school.....44-40.....

 

[Prosser]

Chris:

IIRC, the way Ruger bores the .45 Colt, and the dimensions are the issue.
For a long time .45 Colt guns were made with generous chambers to accommodate old ammo, and, since it operates at such low pressure, this is not an issue with modern brass. It is possible to run the .45/44 Colt Ruger at near 454 specs, provided the chambers are tight, and give little room for the case to expand. The 45 has plenty of bullets available, and, I think you may find it's cheaper to feed then the .44 magnum, due to the Cowboy shooting craze.

I would call a gunsmith that does conversions, like Linebaugh, Jack Huntington, Hamilton Bowen, and ask them what the numbers are they cut for tight .45 Colt chambers(You might be able to find this on their websites, maybe Linebaughs, but I think the information might be old). Then ask them what the average Ruger is cut to, in .45 Colt these days.

My understanding is the reason they start with .44's is they can bore the cylinder out, but, they can't put material back in, without making a new cylinder.

That said, the way Ruger cuts the cylinders may have changed as well. When
I looked into this, they started with the .44's, because it was pretty common that one of the cylinders in the 45 would be oversized. Also, it seems to me that the forcing cones are an issue in a tune up as well. The bullet going from an oversized throat, into an undersized cone. I'm not up on this, and, as I said, this stuff was years ago, and, I see parts of it resurface every once in awhile. Also, I believe as the bits get older, the cutting gets sloppier, or the bits increase in size, not sure on the last part.

As for the .475:
.475 Linebaugh
Reloading data:
No. 9 325 Jacketed FP 27.0 1,430 30.0 1,589 49,340 1.739
Recoil Energy of 29 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 24 fps.
325’s
1544
1492
1492
1482
1519
325’ Are considerably quieter then the 275’s.

The 325's seem to burn the No.9 consistently, and in the 7.5" barrel I have. Hit of the three.

275 Speer HP grain bullet
1560 fps
28 grains of AA 9?
Recoil Energy of 25 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 23 fps.
275’s
1441
1534
1596

I also have a stash of 400 grain Hornady factory stuff that chronographs at 1350 fps out of my 7.5" barrel.


This is my .500JRH, and, I like this barrel length:

5.5" is I think, the most comfortable compromise in barrel length.

The .475 is a custom by Jack Huntington, converting a .454 to .475. The 5.5" was a .475 Freedom Arms converted to .500JRH
Also by Jack Huntington.

 

[336A]

That is why I suggested the .41 mag. I've heard more than once of the Rugers in .45 Colt having smaller than standard throats. Revolvers in .41 mag are very consistent in throat and bore dimensions and it gives up nothing to the other two. Actually it is probably more efficient than the other two.

 

[kayak-man]

Comparing the .44 Mag to a .45 Colt is an apples and oranges thing. The Mag is big bullets going fast. The Colt is big bullets not going fast

I understand what you're saying, they are fairly different cartridges. My comparison of them is more about how well they will do the job (in this case, ending the life of a fairly large critter before it ends me) not the individual characteristics.

MC Gunner - I'm working on getting into handloading. I have a press, some 9mm dies, a scale, callipers, everything except the components. Now that I stop and think about it, I probably wouldn't use the conversion cylinder anyways, so its kind of a moot point.

Ghitch - that is a very nice looking pistol. you're not the first person to suggest 44-40, and I'll consider it. I hadn't thought too much about it, but it bares looking into.

Prosser - Those are some lovely six guns you've got there. I'll give some pistolsmiths a call later this week (after the 4th of july weekend) and see what they have to say.

336A - I was looking into the 41 magnum, and it is definately still on the table. I'm going to do some more research, but I was mainly leading towards the 45 because I thought it would be easier to find reloading components for it, mainly a larger variety of bullets. Would you mind explaining what you mean by "more efficient?" I'm guessing because it would require a little less powder, making it more economical to handload?

Thanks, and please, keep the pictures and info coming!

Chris "the Kayak-Man" Johnson

 

[Prosser]

The .45's advantage is also it's problem. Its a big, old design case. It takes a lot of powder to fill it, and, loading for it can get expensive. Also, when you load the big cases down you can get inconsistent velocity, due to the propellant moving around.

I also doubled a case one time, using a light load. Lucky I had a custom Seville with Linebaughs' super strong cylinder.

Wonder if the .41 would be a good starting place for a custom?
"I'd probably get a 5.5" barrel, and this would mostly be a range toy, but could see some use as a trail gun, maybe medium size game hunting if I get the urge (although I'd probably buy a bigger gun for that)."

As for a range toy, I suspect as you reload that you'll see more deals on .45 bullets, both the light ones for the 45ACP, and the .45 Colt heavier bullets.

.41 has only one draw backup, IIRC, it won't take and use the heavier bullets that both the .44 and .45 Colt will.

If buffalbore can be used as an example, the 44 mag and .45 Colt can be loaded to near equal levels, with 340-350 grain bullets.

IIRC: the .41 tops out at 265-275 grain bullets. However, judging by the loading results for 265's using 4227 and H110, they are REALLY moving, probably fast enough to turn a LFN into an expanding bullet.

 

[Eb1]

I will post up some 25 yard targets I shot today with my Ruger SBH with a 5.5" barrel. Three in one hole, and the other three touching about a 1/4" from the other 3 shot, 1 hole group.

The load was 20.5 grains 2400 with an 240 grain XTP. I am giving 2400 another try with jacketed bullets, but do not really care for it with lead. Anyway. What I am saying is that if you want Magnum loads. Buy a Magnum gun. A convertible is not going to handle Magnum loads. It isn't rated for it. The .44 Magnum is a great cartridge. Mild to Wild! Pick your flavor.

Do a little more research, and call Ruger to ask your questions about their guns when you want to overload a cartridge to Magnum velocities, and see what they have to say about it. I would go with their recommendations if I were going to be pulling the trigger. Not someone who calls a number you throw out. It isn't a split second decision IMO. I will get that pic up very soon.

 

[Prosser]

What's stopped me from getting another .45 Colt has been that I do like to have the flexibility to load past stock .45 Colt loads. If I had to pick one gun, that I was handloading for, and, the gun was not going to be customized, the .44 Magnum makes the most sense. But then I'd end up turning it into a 5 shot .45 Colt.

 

[336A]

Yes it is more economical as it uses less powder to aceive the same end result. However it also will do what ever the other two will do with a lighter bullet meaning less recoil to the user. The other benefit is what I elluded to earlier in that the tolerances in throat and bore dimensions will be more consistent as well. I have yet to find a inaccurate load in the .41. One more benefit is that is it does seem to shoot a bit flatter.

Components and ammo aren't that hard to find if you look around. I just bought some Speer 210 DCHP ammo and it was cheaper than 240gr .44 mag of the same make. The one loading that the .41 mag gets complained about for being uber expensive is the Rem 210gr JSP. This load only comes in a 50rnd box and yes it is expensive. Remington is very proud of this ammo for some reason. However when compared to the .44 mag in 20 round boxes the .41 mag is a mite cheaper. I just got 500 cast .411" bullets here http://shop.snscasting.com/. Compare the price for 500 215gr .41 bullets to those in 240gr .44 and 250gr .45. As far as high performance loads go in the .41 it made a very good showing for it's self here http://www.handloads.com/misc/linebaugh.penetration.tests.asp
Here are some good places to find .41 mag ammo at reasonable prices.
http://www.appalachianammo.com/41remmagnum.aspx

http://shop.reedsammo.com/category....1A048003709184F58C.qscstrfrnt03?categoryId=70

http://georgia-arms.com/41remmag.aspx

 

[Leaky Waders]

45 Colt also has some shorter chamberings too ala a special...45 schofield brass for example is made by starline and iirc there is a 45 cowboy - shorter brass for CAS. so you're not having to have a big empty case when shooting light loads.

Prosser, I'm really interested in your freedom arms. Can you post some pictures of the hammer cocked and their transfer bar assembly? Is it the same rattle contraption as a ruger? From their blue prints it looks like something that slides within the hammer.

 

[Prosser]

LW:

Those are 83's. They have only an 1/8 cock safe position. They are a 4 cock action, I think similar to a Colt revolver. They are not safe to carry with one under the hammer, at least that's what they say in their lawyer literature.
Their is no visible safety transfer bar. I think you are confusing them with the 97's, the 2/3 scale model of the 83.

 

[NC Cruffler]

Get a Ruger Blackhawk with the extra .45ACP cylendar. Don't look back.

 

[Leaky Waders]

Prosser so there's no transfer bar?

 

[Prosser]

There is no real safety, and no transfer bar. FA was sued over this issue when some guy shot himself, carrying a 454 FA 83.

The literature says to carry old style, hammer down on an empty chamber.

 

[Scipio Africanus]

Convertible

"I was looking at the convertable model blackhawk that can handle 45Colt and 45ACP. Since I'll be reloading (have the press, just need to get it set up and get components.) I thought in the long run that might be a good way to go (I'll be reloading 45ACP anyways.) As far as strength is concerned, how does the blackhawk convertable model stack up agaisnt the regular one? can it still handle the heavy Ruger Only loads? can the 45ACP rounds handle 45Super (for those unfamilar with it, its a wildcat cartridge using trimmed 308 cases and loaded to a much higher pressure."

In a word, yes the convertible will handle heavier loads, as any other Blackhawk in .45 Colt would. The frame is exactly the same on standard and convertible Blackhawks.

The .45 ACP cylinder will safely handle loads somewhat hotter than a semi-auto pistol will. Reference the Sierra 5th edition reloaders manual. It has a .45 ACP revolver section. This manual shows loads up to 1100 fps with 230 and 240 gr. bullets.
The Blackhawk is capable of handling rounds up to 30,000psi with ease.
Have fun and good shooting.

For reference, according to the Hodgdon 2006 reloading manual:

.45 ACP max= 17,000 CUP
.45 Super max= 20,000CUP
.45 Colt Ruger, etc. max= 30,000CUP