First time loading lead bullet ... need advice

[Neutered10mm]

I decided to plunk a few bucks down and get some Missouri Bullets IDP #2 SWC 170 gr. .40 S&W bullets. I currently have my press setup for running 165 grain Rainer plated bullets in .40 S&W throwing 4.5 gr. of Hodgdon Titegroup. I've never loaded a straight lead load and was looking for some advice on what a good starting point would be with the Titegroup. While it's the only powder I have, I'm not opposed to getting a different powder, but I'm looking for something that burns cleanly. I figure the bullet lube will produce enough smoke as it is. Also, what OAL should I be shooting for with this bullet? Thanks in advance for your recommendations.

 

[mookiie]

FastCouger my Hornady manual has data for a 180 grain cast bullet. For Titegroup it has starting at 2.1 with max at 4.8, for 170 grain I would assume a maximum of probably 4.1 grains. hope this helps. Also you can check here:
http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/d...W&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source

 

[rcmodel]

Hmmm?
That must be the only Hornady manual in the world with .40 S&W cast bullet data in it.

Hornady only sells soft-swaged lead bullets, and none in .40 cal.

BTW: I'm not finding any Titegroup .40 data in either Hodgdon or Lyman #49.

Generally speaking, you might be better off with a slightly slower powder in that caliber.

rc

 

[LiveLife]

+1. In light of your recent KB with Titegroup/Glock, I would suggest a different powder for 40S&W lead loads in your new M&P40. I would recommend W231/HP-38 or slower.

I have been doing load development with MBC 40S&W bullets and Promo/W231/HP-38/WSF and will post pictures with initial loads later today after work.

BTW, 1999 Winchester and 2004 Alliant load data have lead loads for 40S&W.

 

[Neutered10mm]

Thanks bds, I'm looking forward to the post. If you noted it or can recall, can you give your impression with each load with regard to how much it smoked, if at all? I've shot some lead reloads that were like shooting black powder they smoked so bad and don't wish to produce such a round. Also, thanks for the PM's the other night ... been so busy the last two nights that I didn't get a chance to reply to the 2nd PM.

I have spent at least 8 hours revisiting the press setup after the kB and all factors that led to it have been addressed. I'm now producing beautiful coke-bottle shaped rounds with exactly 4.5 gr. of powder. I broke down and weighed 6 of the remaining 35 rounds from that kB batch and not only did every one have neck tension issues, but they had 4.8 gr. of Titegroup. It's more than likely that more than 1 or 2 factors came into play with the kB. Neck tension/over crimp, "hot" powder load and possibly a weakened case. I'm not exaggerating when I say that EVERY round produced now is getting L.E. Wilson gage checked along with COL checked before and after a solid press on the bench ... all 150 have passed with flying colors. Now I just need to get to the range and test these loads out. Considering the first 600+ of the first batch that produced the kB cycled just fine and my min charge was 4.6 gr. I deem these safe to shoot.

I'd like to continue using the Titegroup simply because I have it in the powder measure now and I love it's shooting characteristics. With 4.6 gr. and the Rainier 165 gr. bullets, the gun cycled nicely with a nice snap, but very controllable recoil. I have run 1500+ factory loads through the same gun before the kB and the load I just described felt better, was just as accurate if not more so, and burned cleaner. Factory loads shot through the G27 to date have been Federal Champion and UMC for comparison sake on the "clean" factor.

 

[tlen]

Shooting lead and low smoke is an oxymoron. If you have ANY concerns for smoke and/or clean you shouldn't consider lead bullets period.
That said, Old Alliant Reloading Guides do have .40 S&W lead bullets data. Look here:
http://www.castpics.net/LoadData/Freebies/RM/Alliant.html

 

[Neutered10mm]

Thanks for the ref link tlen! I figure if I can put up with the amount of smoke for the money saved, I might as well give it a try. 500 bullets for $32 vs. $59 is worth consideration. I only brought up the smoke issue because I have seen some load recommendations in searching where the respondent had load charges in a table with notes where it began to smoke more and more, so I assumed below that point that smoke wasn't much of an issue.

 

[Blue68f100]

You need to loose the TG for lead bullets. It burns way too hot, leading may/will be a issue as well as smoke.

 

[dsb1829]

I have been loading Magnus #101, 180g TCBB, for my glock 22. I am using AA#2 @ 4.5g, which should put me about smack in the middle of the IDPA power factors. I got several comments about the smoke,but it wasn't bugging my sight picture. I do plan to test some moly for comparison, just need to get a hold of some.

WRT the press setup I bell the case a bit more than for a jhp. COAL is typically shorter on the 40&45 lead I load for. I have run the crimp and seat together, separately, and separately with a Lee FCD. Only difference I noted was extra time at the press. My sample is only about 600rd, so ymmv. I just don't see improved accuracy or less leading for the extra step/time.

 

[LiveLife]

Missouri Bullets IDP #2 SWC 170 gr. .40 S&W bullets ... I've never loaded a straight lead load and was looking for some advice on what a good starting point would be with the Titegroup ... I'm not opposed to getting a different powder, but I'm looking for something that burns cleanly. I figure the bullet lube will produce enough smoke as it is. Also, what OAL should I be shooting for with this bullet?

If you reference the pictures below, Missouri 170 gr SWC (IDP #2) loaded to 1.120" OAL with .421" taper crimp has fed/chambered well in my M&P40/Glock22.

As to load data, I referenced 1999 Winchester load data for W231/HP-38/WSF and 2004 Alliant load data for Promo (As indicated by Alliant using Red Dot load data by weight).

With slower burn rate powders like WSF, you'll get unburnt powder, dirty burning and decreased accuracy at start-to-mid range load data. With faster burn rate W231/HP-38, you'll get cleaner burn and still accurate loads at start-to-mid range load data.

With W231/HP-38, 4.0-4.5 gr produced fairly clean burning and very accurate loads. With WSF, 5.5-5.8 gr produced cleaner burning and accurate loads. Between the two, I prefer the milder recoil and better accuracy of W231/HP-38 4.0-4.5 gr loads.

With Promo, MBC 180 gr TCFP (IDP #5) was test on this thread - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=6509911#post6509911
For lighter 170 gr SWC, I plan on testing 3.8/4.0/4.2/4.4/4.5 gr.

180 Lead/3.5 gr - Accuracy all over the 8x11 copy paper - Light recoil
180 Lead/3.8 gr - 7 yard 2" - 10 yard 3" - 15 yard 4" - Mild recoil
180 Lead/4.1 gr - 7 yard 1.5" - 10 yard 1" - 15 yard 4" - Moderate recoil
180 Lead/4.4 gr - 7 yard 1" - 10 yard 2" - 15 yard 2.5" - Firm recoil

 

[Neutered10mm]

Awesome, thanks soo much! I couldn't help myself ... I finished my run of Rainier and ran off a IDP #2 dummy round at 1.130 ... getting ready to chamber check it now, but it dropped right into my L.E. Wilson gage. I'll run out at lunch tomorrow, grab another 1,000 primers and a 1 lbs. container of W231. As it stands now, I have 150 Rainier loads and 50 Berry's to try out, all 4.5 grains of Titegroup.

BTW, my press is now setup like so:
Station 1: Lee de-prime/resize
Station 2: Hornady Powder Measure/PTX expander
Station 3: Hornady Powder Cop
Station 4: Lee bullet seating
Station 5: Lee FCD with very light crimp

Prior to running these 200 rounds, it was hit or miss with the Hornady only dies to getting the rounds to pass the L.E. Wilson gage. I found that the Hornady resizing die as well as the Seat/Crimp die wouldn't always create a concentric cartridge even though I was manually seating the bullets as even as I could. The Lee resizing die is obviously resizing smaller and produces the nicest coke bottle shape. Now with the FCD and Lee seater, every single one drops into the gage like a glove.

 

[GLOOB]

I have no problems with smoke with cast reloads out of my 9mm and 45ACP pistols.

I tried all 3 of my pistol powders in 9mm, and HP38 was the only one that was a bit smoky. 125 gr Small Ball loaded over 5 grains of Unique burns so clean, I can rapid fire at an indoor range, and you can't really tell a difference.

I can't tell the difference with the 45 ACP cast loads, either, but I've only shot those outdoors.

Now out of my blowback 9x18 pistol or my revolver, my cast reloads create quite the smokestack.

 

[LiveLife]

FastCougar, be sure the finished round's bearing surface (part of bullet base that rides the rifling) don't hit/touch the rifling of the barrel when chambered. If the shoulders of the SWC hit/touch the rifling when chambered, it may increase the chamber pressure. Like rcmodel posts, paint the shoulder with marker and fully chamber/spin the bullet. If any marking rubs off, you are hitting the rifling and need to decrease the OAL.

I do not use FCD for lead bullets. Also, be careful using FCD for larger than jacketed diameter bullets (some plated bullets like Berry's/X-Treme are sized larger).

For 40S&W, the FCD carbide resizing ring is meant for .400" diameter jacketed/plated bullets and when used with larger diameter .401"+ plated/lead bullets, you may post size the finished case and reduce the bullet diameter.

What's the problem if the finished round feed/chamber reliably?

1. While the plated/lead bullet will stay reduced in diameter, brass case wall may spring back out to DECREASE NECK TENSION. Amount of this spring back may depend on the head stamp, thickness of the case wall, condition of the brass/work hardening of brass, etc. I would measure the outer diameter of the bullet before and after FCD for any post sizing and check the neck tension/bullet set back by feeding/chambering from the magazine and manually releasing the slide (bullet setback will occur when the bullet nose bumps the ramp).

2. For lead bullets, if post sizing reduces the diameter (say down to .400" from .401"), it will also decrease the bullet-to-barrel fit and allow more high pressure gas leakage around the bullet and result in gas cutting and leading.

If you want to seat and taper crimp larger than jacketed diameter bullets in separate steps, you can either knock out the carbide sizer ring or have Lee Precision enlarge the diameter of the sizer ring so it won't post size (I think they charge ~$15 for this service but call Lee customer service). I seat/taper crimp in the same die.

Be safe.

 

[Neutered10mm]

So what I'm hearing to test this is to take the round and mark it with a sharpie around the lead "shoulder" (below the cone and above the case mouth). Once it's marked up and the shoulder is black, chamber the round and look for rifling marks in the shoulder?

 

[dbarnhart]

I don't own anything in .40 but I do reload .45acp with both FMJ and my own cast lead bullets. You usually want lead bullets in a little larger in diameter than FMJs. For example, my .45 FMJs are .451 while lead are .452.

As a result, you'll want to set your expander die to expand the case mouth a tiny bit more and then the crimp die will also need to be adjusted to compensate.

I actually have two sets of dies, once set for FMJ bullets and the other for my lead bullets so that I am not constantly fiddling with the dies.

 

[LiveLife]

take the round and mark it with a sharpie around the lead "shoulder" (below the cone and above the case mouth). Once it's marked up and the shoulder is black, chamber the round and look for rifling marks in the shoulder?

Yes. Also spin the fully chambered round to see if the shoulder makes contact with the rifling. Once you determine the Max OAL for the chamber/barrel, then next function check by feeding it from the magazine and manually releasing the slide. If it won't feed/chamber reliably, you may need to decrease the OAL.

Another point. If you are loading one round in the progressive press, the OAL will vary from when you have the shell plate full of cases and resizing with each stroke as shell plate will tilt.

I will initially set the OAL with one round on the shell plate but will recheck the OAL of several initial rounds once I start loading in progressive mode.

Checking OAL from time to time, is a good QC step to add.


Also, if you come across a case that's particularly hard to resize, I pull the case out and check to see if it will fall freely into the chamber. The hard to resize effort comes from case base that's expanded larger than typical from hot/over charged cases. If it won't fall into the chamber freely, I will set it aside in a separate box (I will resize one more time but will recycle the case if it won't fall in freely into the chamber after second resizing as I deem the case too far stretched ).

 

[Neutered10mm]

I have successfully cycled the test round with markings to indicate rifling strikes and at 1.130, I had none. However, feeding it a 2nd and 3rd time started to emboss the bullet body lube channel into the case wall. For example, a rather large inset on the bullet lube channel occured when the round jammed chambering, but I think it was my technique of racking the slide too slowly. So, I worked up a second round by removing the powder measure/ptx and replacing it with the Hornady expander with just enough bell to wedge in the bullet with VERY little body of the bullet setting into the mouth. When I pull the bullet out, it make a nice pop sound ... perfect belling. I then removed the Lee seater and FCD and put the Hornady seat/crimp die and adjusted it accordingly. The new round I set at 1.122 (just stopped there rather than nailing it down to 1.120) and painted the shoulder with a Sharpie. This round I chamber checked 10 times in a row, measuring for setback between each cycling. The cycling was done with a quick and abrupt release of the slide after racking back and no drag on the slide ... each time the round chambered beautifully. I then broke down the slide and inspected the barrel as well and noticed that i could possibly chamber as high as 1.140 as the M&P 4.25" barrel rifling is setback at least .10 from the case land if not more. I'm planning on making a few more dummies to test this measurement.

So, after 10 cycles of being chambered, the round looks good and measures true to 1.122 like it started. However, the case itself also shows burnish markings (from rubbing itself up the ramp perhaps) that accentuate the lines of the bullet on the case. Pictures to follow in a few minutes ... I have to bust out the good camera for this.

 

[Neutered10mm]

Keep in mind, this was chambered 10 times in a row. After the first chambering, there was minimal signs of embossing.

 

[LiveLife]

Wow, that's one mangled case neck!

FastCougar, can you take a picture of a finished round chambered once?

In actuality, you are only going to chamber your finished round once. I would be more interested in what happens to the case neck/bullet set back after the initial chambering.

BTW, my finished rounds' case neck edges don't mangle like that even after multiple chamberings (case necks will look same as picture in post #10). Does your taper crimp measure out to .421"-.422" at the most?

Keep in mind that straight walled semi-auto cases head space on the case neck edge/mouth. Too much taper crimp, not enough or damage to case neck edge will all affect proper head spacing of the chambered round.

 

[Neutered10mm]

OK, worked up quite a few rounds and noticed some tooling marks on the case necks about .10 - .25 below the mouth, so it looks like I need to polish the inside of guide tube on the Hornady bullet seat/crimp die. The mangling you saw is from the feeding. Even after 10 feeds and multiple bench presses, the rounds are still measuring right at what they did when they rolled off the press. That being said, anything finished (seated/crimped) in the Hornady die isn't clearing the gage, but does chamber. Anything finished in the Lee FCD drops right into the gage without a problem, passes the bench press setback test and looks wonderful. However, regardless of which dies I use, I can induce a FTF by pulling back on the locked back slide and then releasing slowly. The result is a round that has a slight case ding below the mouth on the neck in the area of the case lube groove in the bullet. The round still chambers and gage checks just fine. I suspect the round is wedging due to the lack of the rounded nose since it's a SWC. Otherwise, I suspect that the nose would cause the head to raise normally. Just so happens, this pressure point is in the bullet's lube groove and it's definitely where the ramp ends and the chamber begins at the 6 o'clock position. Never had this problem with HP Rainier rounds or Berry's RNFP rounds and thus why I'm assuming it's the SWC. If I snap the slide with authority, it doesn't happen, but does in fact leave the mark.

FTF wedging:

Feed ramp/chamber entrance brass buffing deposition:

The result ... the "scuff" is very minor with nearly no identation and only surface scuffing/burnishing.

 

[Neutered10mm]

I take that back ... I didn't recall the cases correctly ... there is a slight scuff mark on each round in my loads, but with the SWC lead round, it indents slightly because of the lube channel. This indentation does not loosen the neck tension as they all press check just fine. On the solid sided bullets (Rainier and Berry's), the scuff does not indent. This marking is a trait of the gun, not the reloading equipment.

 

[LiveLife]

The picture of last round looks good. Looks like you are essentially there.

regardless of which dies I use, I can induce a FTF by pulling back on the locked back slide and then releasing slowly ... If I snap the slide with authority, it doesn't happen, but does in fact leave the mark.

This is normal. What happens during feeding/chambering is that:

1. Round in the magazine is stripped/pushed from behind by the slide returning to battery.

2. The nose of the bullet will "bump" the ramp of the barrel.

3. As the base of the case clears the magazine feed lips, the push from the magazine spring will push the case base up against the breech wall of the slide (case rim riding inside the extractor) and align the round with the chamber.

Note: If you ride the slide back with your hand, you will induce a jam indicated by the FastCougar. Let the slide go and the case base will "hop up" and "slide" into the chamber. If the round won't, then you may need to adjust/decrease the OAL.

4. Recoil spring will push/slam the round into the chamber with the slide and the case neck edge/mouth will headspace with the chamber.

 

[popper]

Heat the CBs in a pan of hot water to melt off the lube and then tumble lube with Alox or Recluse. Use mid HP-38 data for 180 gr. as starting. The MBC lube will smoke, so will Recluse, but leading is less and accuracy appears to be better. I TC instead of FCD in .40, just get a light ring around the mouth to make sure the bell is gone. You can FCD enough to swage the CB down in size and cause leading. It is even more fun to cast your own @ 1/3 the $ of MBC.

 

[Neutered10mm]

Thanks for the suggestions. I broke down 5 dummy rounds yesterday and measured the outside diameter just below the crimp line (very slight crimp mark). The rounds were very hard to break down with the hammer, so neck tension is spot on. The FCD'd rounds measured in at .401 to .4005, none measured .400, so I suspect swaging isn't going to be an issue for my FCD. I'm still trying to nail down why my non FCD rounds aren't clearing my gage, but they chamber just fine. I forced a few into the gage and had to extract them to see where they were binding and it's definitely in the bullet seating not being perfectly vertical. Apparently the FCD is straightening this would without much swaging, which is good.

 

[LiveLife]

The case gauges are made for jacketed diameter bullets sized .400" so for .401" sized lead bullet, finished rounds would not pass the gauge.

Of course, running the bullet seated rounds through FCD would allow the carbide sizer ring to reduce the outer diameter of the case, which would in turn reduce the diameter of the lead bullet - this is the post sizing by FCD we often refer to.

I say if your FCD does not decrease the neck tension or OAL when bullet nose bumps the ramp from the magazine and you do not have oversized barrel that has leading, go for it. However, if you have any or all of these issues, you probably want to set the FCD aside or knock out the carbide sizer ring (You can also have Lee enlarge the carbide sizer ring for ~$15).

I really wish Lee would sell the FCD with removable carbide sizer ring like their Speed Dies.