Fixation on draw times

[Bartholomew Roberts]

I just finished some force-on-force training at Tac-Pro Shooting Center. This is one of the only ranges in Texas to offer the same training that military and LE receive to qualified civilians. One of the things I noticed during the training, is that how fast you were with a gun didn't come into play very often.

It seemed to me that the situations always fell into one of two categories.

1) You had ample time to draw and anyone who could draw and fire accurately in less than 2.5-3 seconds would be OK. Sometimes you could take even longer than that if you were subtle about the draw and did it covertly.

2) You needed to be freakishly, Jelly-Bryce fast and be able to draw and deliver multiple shots on target in less than 0.5 seconds in order to have any kind of chance.

With 11 students, four aggressors, and 8-9 different scenarios, I don't think there was one instance where being able to draw quickly made a difference.

 

[Biker]

I used to dillegently practice drawing my Glock 23 from a Sparks Summer Special and engaging a paper plate at 7 yards with two rounds, starting facing away from the target. I could regularly do it in 1.5 seconds. Then one day I started questioning this strategy. I normally carry a Taurus 450, sometimes a G27 on my left ankle. I sometimes carry a 38 snubby or a little 380 AMT in my hip pocket or breast pocket.
Today, I spend most of my time practicing with the ankle draw with probably 25% of my time on the other two modes of carry. The times are so slow (especially with the ankle draw) that I'm embarrased to post them, but I'm much more careful today to try to make sure that I have my gun in my hand before I need it.
Biker

 

[Zak Smith]

The impression I got from Tactical Response's FOF was that drawing and shooting while moving effectively was much more important than draw time.

 

[pax]

Bart ~

Took a class from Jim Cirillo awhile back. He said he didn't want anyone in the class thinking that a fast draw time was going to save them. He added that in his experience, it was far more important to see trouble coming and avoid it than it was to be able to pull the gun out fast -- and that if someone got the drop on you, pulling out a gun in a hurry was a good way to get dead in a hurry.

I agree with Cirillo, but have to add that a fast draw time, getting good hits, from whatever rig you ordinarily would use, is a pretty good indicator of whether you really know your gun and equipment. Learning to use your equipment to its limits gives confidence and helps you be decisive in a pinch -- both items that could very well save your life. So I believe learning to draw smoothly and quickly put multiple shots where they need to go is a worthwhile endeavour in and of itself, even if the specific action of drawing really fast is unnecessary in most encounters.

pax

 

[Ankeny]

Drawing is just another tool in the toolbox. Personally, I would rather have a tool and not need it...

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

The impression I got from Tactical Response's FOF was that drawing and shooting while moving effectively was much more important than draw time.

Most of the scenarios where I needed that Jelly Bryce speed, I ended up running (to create distance and/or seek cover) and drawing while I was moving.

So I believe learning to draw smoothly and quickly put multiple shots where they need to go is a worthwhile endeavour in and of itself, even if the specific action of drawing really fast is unnecessary in most encounters.

I'd definitely agree with that. Based on the scenarios I was involved with, you will have plenty to think about besides gun manipulation. The better you can manipulate a firearm without conscious thougt, the more time you will have to make important decisions about your current tactics. If you are thinking "step 1, grasp the pistol with a good shooting grip", then the more pressing tactical questions are never going to get answered because you won't make it that far down the list of things to think about before it is over.

On the other hand, given the dominant nature of games like IPSC and IDPA on the sport, I think people sometimes place too much emphasis on their ability to draw and deliver fire quickly. One of the guys in our class could do a Mozambique at 7yds in 1.6 seconds from concealment. That is better than I am capable of doing by almost a full second. However, it didn't really give him any advantage over me in the scenarios because we both had decent gun handling skills and once you had that base, the rest was nice; but not necessary.

Drawing is just another tool in the toolbox. Personally, I would rather have a tool and not need it...

True; but to use your analogy, what tools are NOT in the toolbox because you spent your training time and money on making that 2 second draw from concealment a 1 second draw from concealment? A power sander is a great tool for the toolbox; but if you don't have a hammer, screwdriver and wrench set because you spent the money on a power sander, how versatile is the toolbox?

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Right, just another tool. I would much rather be able to draw and fire accurately in 2.5 seconds than 3 or 5 seconds. Being a proficient draw does not have to come at the expense of gaining other tools as well, but developed in conjunction with them.

For most of us, since we don't dual and we don't do old west gunfights, we probably won't be racing to draw against another who is racing to draw. We will either be drawing after the fact of danger realization, such as when somebody attempts to mug you, or drawing in anticipating of it, such as investigating a bump in the night.

It can be very tough to draw and shoot faster than a person with a drawn gun aimed at you can shoot. So racing the draw there isn't much use unless combined with some personal direction of travel changes such that you aren't a stationary target.

So, is the speed of the draw going to be critical in a real life situation? Who knows? Bart you said it wasn't an issue in teh 8-9 scenarios you ran. That is fine. My guess is that you didn't run any scenarios that depended on the quick presentation of a gun. There are those cases where homeowners have come home and interrupted a burglary in process, encountering the burglar inside the home, neither knowing the other was present until spotting one another. That would be one of those times when a quick draw would be prudent.

There is one thing I am certain of and that has unfortunately been substantiated by a lot of people, many of whom are dead. If you have a gun and cannot produce it before the other person shoots you, then quite likely you won't get a chance to use it.

A San Diego sheriff's deputy I shot with at a couple Glock v. 1911 1000 round matches in Oklahoma has never drawn and fired on a person, but in serving warrants and looking for bad guys, he has had folks release their pitbulls on him in at least three occasions, two of which he was able to draw and shoot the pitbulls before they latched on to him. Time most definitely mattered.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Right, just another tool. I would much rather be able to draw and fire accurately in 2.5 seconds than 3 or 5 seconds. Being a proficient draw does not have to come at the expense of gaining other tools as well, but developed in conjunction with them.

Certainly working on your drawstroke doesn't have to be an expensive process. Dry firing doesn't cost much besides time. Still, I think that because of the IPSC and IDPA perspectives, there is more focus on drawing and shooting a pistol quickly than there is on other important aspects of self-defense.

Once you reach a certain baseline on skills, do you really get the best return on your time by practicing a fast presentation?

My guess is that you didn't run any scenarios that depended on the quick presentation of a gun. There are those cases where homeowners have come home and interrupted a burglary in process, encountering the burglar inside the home, neither knowing the other was present until spotting one another. That would be one of those times when a quick draw would be prudent.

I'm not saying you have all the time in the world to retrieve your weapon in all scenarios. I am saying that a one second draw isn't going to expand your problem solving options all that much over a two or three second draw. Making the decision to draw before the other guy does was almost always an unbeatable advantage (presuming you were justified in that decision)... by the time you see the movement, recognize it as a threat, and begin to react to it the other guy has an advantage that just being quick isn't going to beat.

To use just one example, we did a mugging scenario. The guy started off with the panhandling routine. Despite awareness, being keyed up and most people correctly identifying him as a threat, nobody beat him on the draw. The people who did well in that scenario had to figure other ways to create an opportunity to draw.

 

[RyanM]

A very fast draw time generally indicates that you have all the movements down and can draw smoothly, without getting snagged or hung up on any part of the draw (provided the draw time isn't artificially lowered by using some goofy competition holster or something). A smooth draw is definitely more important than a fast draw, but it's usually impossible to be fast unless you're already smooth. I definitely wouldn't want to settle for a 2-3 second draw, if that extra 1-2 seconds is caused by snagging or other difficulty, instead of just not being able to move that fast.

A smooth 1 second draw on the range could easily turn into a 6 second draw if you're wearing a heavy coat, slipping on ice, and seeing stars because you were just punched in the head. But a slightly clumsy 3 second draw under the same circumstances would probably become a complete fumble, with the gun getting dropped or tangled in clothing.

But if a 2-3 second draw is all you can manage, provided that it's smooth and snag-free, I'd bet that you don't have a disadvantage compared to someone faster.

 

[Ankeny]

Still, I think that because of the IPSC and IDPA perspectives, there is more focus on drawing and shooting a pistol quickly than there is on other important aspects of self-defense.

Ah, the pitfall of confusing the gun games with self defense training.

 

[coylh]

Sometimes we focus on things which are easily measured.

Anyway, I don't see any advantage to defending yourself slowly. I'd bet if you had to pull your gun out, you'd be wishing for an extra 5 seconds.

 

[magyvor]

Just a thought.........

I admit that a faster presentation is a good thing. But I also think that with enough practice, you will get faster. And I dont mean Competition shooting either.

Maybe I am confused in the real world--lol--but at night, before I change out of my clothes, since I have my CCW on me anyways....before I put the jammies on, I unload the gun, and practice my draw from whatever concealment is on me at the time. I do this 20 times. I dont concentrate on being fast...just draw, ready position, re-holster..smoothly, 20 times.

Its my firm belief that muscle memory works. That being said, there are MANY different tools in the toolbox, thats just one of em...my hope and belief is that I dont want to even think about drawing my gun if I am in a life threatening situation...it will just be there in my hands hopefully in time to defend myself...again, one of many tools.

BUT---there are some HOLY CRAP THAT WAS FAST people out there, amazing !