Flame suit on: 22LR semi-auto for home defense.

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Here you go Vern.

Well that just looks like too much fun. And yeah, it'd no doubt do the trick in a home defense situation. 30 rounds in a second, suppressed, would disable any attacker who wasn't bulletproof and wouldn't deafen the homeowner, though the smoke would cling to the furniture for a while. .22lr smoke is unpleasant indoors.
 
These little full auto monsters put a new spin on the " Say hello to my little friend " phrase.
 
These little full auto monsters put a new spin on the " Say hello to my little friend " phrase.
After stewing on that ugly little bastard for for a few hours I can't help but think it's just begging for a leather cross-draw harness and dual wield.
 
Cheap, bulk 22LR Ammo will occasionally misfire, but I can't remember ever having a misfire with a 22WMR round. Maybe I am just lucky.

I do have a PMR30 that makes a lot of noise, throws a big fireball from the barrel and if I remember correctly gets up to well over 1300 fps from the PMR30 and has pretty good penetration in ballistic gelatin.

Recoil is pretty mild and with a 30+1 round capacity what's not to like?

Check out this gelatin test from the PMR30


Don't forget your safety glasses with PMR30.
 
Whatever an attacker may want or not want, there would be a lot more than the egg money at stake if deadly force were in fact immediately required, and no one is responsibly or competently advised to train to defend himself by trying to do anything with a "face full", out of anything.

What about a "face full" of #4 or #5 shot from a 3" Judge..

Smoke that over and get back to me..
 
What about a "face full" of #4 or #5 shot from a 3" Judge..

Smoke that over and get back to me..
So far, I have not come upon any trainers who would recommend the choice of such a weapon.

Were the Jute all I had, I would use larger projectiles.
 
I'd venture to suggest that consider the fact most of us will never encounter a situation in our lifetimes where having a firearm available for defensive reasons is necessary, the question becomes somewhat more complex than a black or white decision regarding the nature of the firearm. Where I live, carrying a pistol is legal only for law enforcement, armoured car personnel, and a very few private security officers or other citizens who have been granted special exceptions to carry in certain circumstances. So it's a moot point here, nation-wide. In terms of actual utility, it seems unlikely that most Canadians will ever actually need a pistol for personal defence. The most notable exceptions are a) those who hunt or trap in the wilderness (and those people are often granted an exception for use against bears or mountain lions), and b) those who are involved in criminal gangs, whose lifestyle choices have made them vastly more likely to become targets of violence. For a), as I mentioned, exceptions can be applied for and are often granted. For b), I have no empathy, as they're getting what they asked for when they signed up as gangsters.

Of course there are many of us who may fall victim to violent injuries or death related to a) or b). Going for a hike or camping trip often results in large predator encounters. For such things the 'weapons' which have the best track record are 'bear bangers' (a pen gun which launches a small explosive high above the person and the bear resulting in a very loud explosion which usually scares away the bear) and bear spray, which when used properly in a low Z pattern usually results in a successful repelling of the animal, with a very small percentage of failures, much lower than the rate of failure to defend oneself even when compared to statistics where hunters have used long rifles in self defence against a charging bear or jumping lion. It's harder to miss when creating a wall of irritating spray, compared to putting one bullet through a fast-moving animal while in a panicked state. Still, the odd person does get severely injured or dies as the result of a wild animal attack, even when deploying both bear banger and pepper spray. Very tiny numbers, similar to shark attacks, which are extremely rare.

Similarly, injuries and occasionally fatalities can result from being in the 'wrong place' when gangland idiots decide to start shooting up a street, restaurant, or home. These guys are not known for precise marksmanship. Bullets mostly hit unintended targets, the vast majority of these being vehicles, walls, and dirt. But the odd person dies or suffers a permanent injury. And that's sad. But there's really not a lot to be done about it as a 'defender' considering that it is exceedingly rare for such shootings to give bystanders any warning, nor time to shoot back, besides which it should be fairly obvious that involving oneself in a gang shootout will typically result in becoming the direct target rather than a potential incidental backstop for their nonsense. Finding cover seems the best practice, both in theory and in actual events recorded. Get the heck out of there and let the idiots kill each other, and let the police do their job trying to eliminate such organizations. Unless of course one is planning on becoming a superhero with a gun... but that's a dangerous road, and an illegal one in Canada.

As for the USA, my take on it is typically long-winded... but I'll try to be brief. If you happen to have drawn the short straw in terms of where you live, meaning you're surrounded by gangsters and have little in the way of financial or other means to get the heck away to a better place to live, then perhaps carrying a pistol or at least having one beside your bed is the best option. Considering slow police response times, if home invasions are daily events where you reside, such a tool is indeed important. Where I live home invasions ONLY happen to gang-involved people, well... okay, VERY rarely the very rich are targeted, but the odds are much longer than winning a major lottery. But I've read enough reports regarding attacks in many US cities to understand that, while not so bad as urban Brazil or Honduras, there are a lot of places in the US which have become essentially low level war zones.

In such a case I'd consider a large calibre handgun essential, at least in the home. For carrying, whatever can be concealed and provide a reliable dump of at least 3 or 4 shots on a close up target would seem important. If concealment of a large calibre handgun isn't a problem for the individual, by all means carry such a weapon if your daily life takes you through areas where a potentially fatal attack is around every corner... but also consider finding ways to avoid such areas if at all possible.

But if all the defender can comfortably manage is a .22lr compact pistol then so be it. Load it with Stingers (CCI reliability being among the best), shoot it regularly and keep it well maintained, learn to handle it with the same familiarity as you have with tying your shoes, brushing your teeth, putting on a seat belt. It should be second nature, such that a precise and deliberate series of shots happens almost without thinking in a true emergency where such violence is necessary. And work on your attitude such that panic and freezing become unlikely. Understanding your own response to truly stressful emergent situations is critical. The majority freeze. It's the sad reality. I've seen it time and again, especially among drivers, where life and death is constantly an issue and yet most will completely lock up when someone does something unexpected in front of them. Our provincial insurance agency is going broke in large part because of such 'accidents.' Most people are psychologically unprepared for stress. For such people I'd suggest sensible footwear, lots of jogging, and running like hell when things go sideways. Easier to train for that than to train for killing someone.

As has been demonstrated time and again, being shot with almost anything tends to dissuade all but the most hardened of criminals. And those 'hard men,' the sort who are familiar with stabbing fellow inmates to death with a sharpened toothbrush for example, are not likely to be intimidated by any weapon, even a Desert Eagle, as they'll just do what they know best and either evade or kill you anyway before you get a shot off. These guys tend to be ready for counter-attacks, so a shootout with such a person is very unlikely to succeed. Still, it's your choice. I'm just saying that even a tiny pistol is going to be effective in ending an attack by most assailants. So it comes down to more what's comfortable to carry and use for each individual, more than what's optimal for big game stopping power. I'd never consider a .22lr suitable for self defence against bears and mountain lions in the back country... so I carry bear spray and a bear banger.
 
Not really. I have personally seen men hit multiple times with rifles and continue to fight -- myself included on one occasion.
I was talking about civilian defensive statistics not warriors in action. Big difference in psychology which translates to a big difference in response to being shot. Most muggers will either fall or flee when shot by anything or even when missed by a shot. Many (but far from all) soldiers will try to fight through even multiple wounds. Mindset is massively significant.
 
I was talking about civilian defensive statistics not warriors in action. Big difference in psychology which translates to a big difference in response to being shot. Most muggers will either fall or flee when shot by anything or even when missed by a shot. Many (but far from all) soldiers will try to fight through even multiple wounds. Mindset is massively significant.
How do you know that to be true?
 
How do you know that to be true?
Well golly, you've got me there. I didn't happen to bookmark any of the many websites where I've read the data regarding defensive civilian shootings. All I'm doing is summarizing what I've read. Police tend to shoot approximately twice as many rounds in disabling offenders as compared to civilian defenders, but again, just recalling what I've read, again and again, from multiple solid sources. I don't really care enough to take an hour researching this and coming back with links. If you're worried about it, look it up yourself. The three letter agencies and various health service related studies all point to 1.3 shots, and 2 to 3 shots for police.
 
Well golly, you've got me there. I didn't happen to bookmark any of the many websites where I've read the data regarding defensive civilian shootings. All I'm doing is summarizing what I've read. Police tend to shoot approximately twice as many rounds in disabling offenders as compared to civilian defenders, but again, just recalling what I've read, again and again, from multiple solid sources. I don't really care enough to take an hour researching this and coming back with links. If you're worried about it, look it up yourself. The three letter agencies and various health service related studies all point to 1.3 shots, and 2 to 3 shots for police.
Yet you agree a man can be shot multiple times in combat, and still function (for a while at least.) How do you know people shot under other circumstances can't do the same? Particularly, how is it that a man hopped on nothing but GI coffee, or a rice ball can continue to fight, while a man hopped up on speed will just collapse?
 
It has to do with mindset, intention, motivation. Basics of human psychology. A street thug or burglar is essentially a coward, a desperate person with limited mental resources who has resorted to the easiest way they can find to make quick cash. The vast majority of such criminals has zero intention of getting hurt or killed, no capacity to imagine consequences in a meaningful way. These are lowest common denominator people for the most part. I'm not suggesting that military enlistment somehow renders superior beings... rather that the mindset is fundamentally different. A soldier's training prepares them psychologically for the high chance that they will be injured or even killed in the line of duty. A soldier deals with this every day and every night. The thug tends to act spontaneously, with acts of violent theft themselves comprising extremely little of their daily lives, the rest being dedicated to buying whatever drug they need and otherwise participating at whatever level they do with their social circle. Of course the soldier isn't in battle 24/7, and the majority of soldiers don't see a lot of actual firefights, but nonetheless the mentality is there, the preparedness to deal with an injury should one happen. Some will flap around and scream like a toddler, sure, but that's not the norm.

A junkie in need has nothing to fight for beyond that need, and an easier target the next block over is a heck of a lot more tempting than some guy they've poked in the back turning around with a pistol in hand. Fire one shot and any thought of that next fix flies out the window - if the legs still work, they'll start working and get the junkie the heck out of there. A soldier has layers of authority behind/above him/her insisting that running away is not an option, added to the months of training dictating the same thing. What junkie has that pressure or motivation to fight? Again, I'm not citing sources... just lots and lots of reading regarding incidents of this nature, common muggings and robberies. When bullets start flying the vast majority of criminals, even bank robbers, will turn and run, maybe getting in one or two ill-placed shots as they flee, but safety becomes their number one concern. Unless of course you live in a place where street criminals are as brave as soldiers... do you? I'd suggest that if there is such a place, perhaps a recruiting office in that place might be a good idea, to improve the quality of the military.
 
It has to do with mindset, intention, motivation. Basics of human psychology. A street thug or burglar is essentially a coward, a desperate person with limited mental resources who has resorted to the easiest way they can find to make quick cash. The vast majority of such criminals has zero intention of getting hurt or killed, no capacity to imagine consequences in a meaningful way. These are lowest common denominator people for the most part. I'm not suggesting that military enlistment somehow renders superior beings... rather that the mindset is fundamentally different. A soldier's training prepares them psychologically for the high chance that they will be injured or even killed in the line of duty. A soldier deals with this every day and every night. The thug tends to act spontaneously, with acts of violent theft themselves comprising extremely little of their daily lives, the rest being dedicated to buying whatever drug they need and otherwise participating at whatever level they do with their social circle. Of course the soldier isn't in battle 24/7, and the majority of soldiers don't see a lot of actual firefights, but nonetheless the mentality is there, the preparedness to deal with an injury should one happen. Some will flap around and scream like a toddler, sure, but that's not the norm.

A junkie in need has nothing to fight for beyond that need, and an easier target the next block over is a heck of a lot more tempting than some guy they've poked in the back turning around with a pistol in hand. Fire one shot and any thought of that next fix flies out the window - if the legs still work, they'll start working and get the junkie the heck out of there. A soldier has layers of authority behind/above him/her insisting that running away is not an option, added to the months of training dictating the same thing. What junkie has that pressure or motivation to fight? Again, I'm not citing sources... just lots and lots of reading regarding incidents of this nature, common muggings and robberies. When bullets start flying the vast majority of criminals, even bank robbers, will turn and run, maybe getting in one or two ill-placed shots as they flee, but safety becomes their number one concern. Unless of course you live in a place where street criminals are as brave as soldiers... do you? I'd suggest that if there is such a place, perhaps a recruiting office in that place might be a good idea, to improve the quality of the military.
Nice theory, but where's the proof?
 
.......And in the meantime back at the 22lr for home protection thread......

I see no reason why momma or grandma can't use a 22lr for home protection. It's not ideal. But sometimes we work with what we can handle. My suggestion would be for her to practice all the time though. Get Granny Great Groups.
 
a_canadian said:
Again, I'm not citing sources... just lots and lots of reading regarding incidents of this nature, common muggings and robberies.

Without some sources or other evidence -- your comments are opinion, nothing more. And opinions are like that part of the body that everybody has... (Sadly, even the best evidence available isn't always that useful -- as like opinions,even the best data can sometime come with biases built in.)

I'd like to think that all bad guys are street thugs or robbers are cowards. Robbers, by definition, are individuals who choose to use a form of theft that involves personal confrontation with a victim. Thugs, almost by definition, are ready to engage their targets. EXPERIENCED thugs and robbers may be better-prepared to deal with the risks of physical conflict and personal combat than most of the folks participating here -- if only because these bad guys have done more than talk or read about it. And then there is the person on drugs or the nut cases who simply don't care...

Would I use a .22 for home defense? No.

Would I use a .22 WMR in a longer-barreled high-cap semi-auto using ammo designed for handguns? Perhaps, but it wouldn't be my first choice. My wife, however, would be very comfortable using our Kel-Tec PMR-30 -- and it's 25+ rounds (30 rounds, actually) can give her a few extra shots if the first couple don't work for her. She isn't comfortable with any of my other handguns in the gun safe (or other handguns I've owned) -- been there, done that.

Any of these small caliber weapons are arguably better than a pointed stick, and may be all that SOME shooters can use with any confidence.
 
During the assassination attempt on president Reagan 3 people were put on the ground with a 22LR revolver. A press secretary, a cop and a SS agent. None of them got up. Brady never fully recovered.

Now I'm not advocating a 22 for SD in the home, but when people say it isn't effective you need to watch this video. Proof that it works pretty well.

 
Didn't read the whole thread, and doubt this was mentioned, but the Legend Bill Burr thinks the .22 is best in his admittedly unprofessional opinion...

Language alert

 
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