Florida Senate rejects new bill for Stand Your Ground changes....

[RustyShackelford]

The media is saying the Florida Senate voted down a new bill that would modify the controversial "Stand Your Ground" statues.
The state officials decided to maintain the laws they way they were first set up.

Some national news outlets & people outside of FL are unaware of a few factors re; Stand Your Ground & Florida's Castle Doctrine statues.
A) Violent crime in Florida is low. After these laws were put in & new changes were made to the CCW process, assaults & homicides went down.
B) After the big Zimmerman/Martin incident in 2012 in Sanford Florida, Gov Scott set up a special task force to address armed citizen use of force issues & gun laws. After months of meetings & in-depth research, the group(made up of political leaders/sworn LE/religious figures/educators/etc) from all different backgrounds/races stated in the formal recommendations that no major changes should be made to the Stand Your Ground laws/Castle Doctrine.
C) Contrary to many national media reports & editorials, the Florida Stand Your Ground statues & gun laws are used in the defense of citizens with many different races/ages/socio-economic backgrounds. Many of these criminal court cases & lethal force events are not reported or given little notice by the media/news sources. :banghead:

Rusty

 

[MedWheeler]

Good to hear.

Another fact often left from the ears of the mass-media-exposed people is that the concept of "standing one's ground" was never introduced as a defense in the high-profile Sanford shooting you mention.

 

[RustyShackelford]

Exactly!

Exactly.
The media(first locally then national) distorted many points(facts-information) in that use of force incident.

I get irked too by the constant use of "examples" of Florida Stand Your Ground cases where one gang member shoots another or a hooker kills her john that doesn't pay her then uses "Stand Your Ground".
It's unfair & unethical to portray all CCW license holders or gun owners as bad or "evil" but the media & some prosecutors/LE do it push their agendas.

 

[HexHead]

What part of Zimmerman NOT using SYG as a defense don't these morons understand? SYG had absolutely NOTHING to do with the outcome of the hero Zimmerman's trial. Sheesh.

 

[hueytaxi]

What part of Zimmerman NOT using SYG as a defense don't these morons understand? SYG had absolutely NOTHING to do with the outcome of the hero Zimmerman's trial. Sheesh.

"Hero"? Not likely! GZ was and is an overzealous jerk. I think justice was served, but GZ is no hero.

 

[bainter1212]

Yep thank God GZ didn't invoke SYG. The laws don't need that kind of bad association.

GZ is the worst kind of vigilante and his behavior is a perfect example of how NOT to behave as a CCW holder.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Tampa Bay Times has maintained a detailed database on all fatal SYG cases. (The non-fatal cases where SYG was invoked are not well-reported or noticed official or by the news.)

When the Zimmerman/Martin case was "hot", I took note on the TBT SYG database (fatal cases only).

By the date of the Zimmerman verdict there were 113 fatal cases listed as SYG (and TBT listed the Z/M case as SYG because the Judge in instructions to the Jury mentioned Stand Your Ground as a defense). Other TBT SYG cases include those where the police or prosecutor applied SYG. So the 113 were not all cases where the defendant or his attorney invoked SYG.

Bottom line: In the six years SYG was in effect, there were nearly 6,000 homicides in Florida. Homicide has declined in Florida. The only escalation those 113 cases represent is the number of homicide incident reports that get the FBI UCR code 09C or 090C -- presumed justifiable homicide in self defense.

About 2/3 rds of the TBT SYG cases were eventually acquited with the grounds being justifiable homicide. Bogus SYG claims did get convictions in court.

Blacks are 15% of the Florida population but were 30% of the SYG defendants with an acquittal rate a bit better than white or hispanic defendants. (Blacks are more likely to be crime victims than whites or hispanics in Florida.) That meant the innocent self defenders (victims of criminals) could stay out of jail til trial and not loose everything to legal expenses. Obviously Zimmerman with $2.5 million in legal bills is not a benefeciary of SYG.

TBT listed 8 SYG cases involving a white defendant and a black victim. I wonder where the news media and the anti-SYG activists get their "hundreds of blacks killed by SYG"?

On the Zimmerman case, I noticed the original Sanford police incident report used the 090C code for self-defense, but the case was investigated as possible negligent manslaughter, unnecessary killing in response to an unlawful act. If you watched the girlfriend's testimony PLUS the transcript of her post-trial interview on Piers Morgan Live, Trayvon Martin had lost Zimmerman and had reached the Brandi Green home, plenty of time to avoid Zimmerman, but decided to go back to where Zimmerman was waiting on the cops to arrive in response to his call to dispatch, in order to confront Zimmerman and in Rachel's words "whoop a**" as "new school" does, rather than go inside, call Dad or call 911 himself (calling authority? that's "old school" that's retarded). I found Charles Barkley followed the testimony and evidence and came to the same conclusion I did. Martin made it a matter of self-defense. Zimmerman may have over-reacted (he started carrying a gun because the neighbor's pit bull cornered him in his own garage) and may have been guilty of unnecessary killing in response to an unlawful act, negligent manslaughter, but Special Prosecutor Angela Corey, as she does with black defendants, ramped the charge up at (my count) three degrees higher than the evidence would prove: she skipped from negligent manslaughter, past voluntary manslaughter, past 3rd degree murder to 2nd degree murder, then presented evidence that did not support 2nd degree. The defense was able to convince the jury Zimmerman thought he was going to die after being punched to the ground.

Barkley's comments here: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/vi...zimmerman_trial_i_agree_with_the_verdict.html

 

[oneounceload]

but Special Prosecutor Angela Corey, as she does with black defendants, ramped the charge up at (my count) three degrees higher than the evidence would prove: she skipped from negligent manslaughter, past voluntary manslaughter, past 3rd degree murder to 2nd degree murder, then presented evidence that did not support 2nd degree.

Maybe that was deliberately done by design??

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Maybe that was deliberately done by design??

Corey has a track record of over-charging (then offering a plea to lesser), usually on the model of threatening 20 years at trial but taking a 2-3 year plea.

 

[RustyShackelford]

GZ; Stand Your Ground....

To my knowledge, the GZ case was not considered a "stand your ground" event. Atty Mark O'Mera the lead defense council stated that over & over in the central FL media.
He didn't push for a Stand Your Ground hearing(which may have "cleared" Zimmerman) & avoided a full criminal court trial.
I'm not going to comment on or dwell on prosecutor Angela Corey's motivations or politics either.
I think her statements & actions in the GZ case speak for themselves.
The other Florida State's Atty Office prosecutor Bernie De La Rhonda was much worse in my opine. His distain for the Sanford FL police officers, witnesses & legal experts was tough to sit thru.
His remarks defied logic & common sense too at times.
And don't forget Dr Shiping Bao.
That court testimony should be studied in US law schools & pre-law classes.

 

[gym]

Just go to my post in the activism section "This week in Fl and other states, new bills and old ones ", From the beginning of last month, it has the bills that were changed and repealed.

 

[bainter1212]

Tampa Bay Times has maintained a detailed database on all fatal SYG cases. (The non-fatal cases where SYG was invoked are not well-reported or noticed official or by the news.)

When the Zimmerman/Martin case was "hot", I took note on the TBT SYG database (fatal cases only).

By the date of the Zimmerman verdict there were 113 fatal cases listed as SYG (and TBT listed the Z/M case as SYG because the Judge in instructions to the Jury mentioned Stand Your Ground as a defense). Other TBT SYG cases include those where the police or prosecutor applied SYG. So the 113 were not all cases where the defendant or his attorney invoked SYG.

Bottom line: In the six years SYG was in effect, there were nearly 6,000 homicides in Florida. Homicide has declined in Florida. The only escalation those 113 cases represent is the number of homicide incident reports that get the FBI UCR code 09C or 090C -- presumed justifiable homicide in self defense.

About 2/3 rds of the TBT SYG cases were eventually acquited with the grounds being justifiable homicide. Bogus SYG claims did get convictions in court.

Blacks are 15% of the Florida population but were 30% of the SYG defendants with an acquittal rate a bit better than white or hispanic defendants. (Blacks are more likely to be crime victims than whites or hispanics in Florida.) That meant the innocent self defenders (victims of criminals) could stay out of jail til trial and not loose everything to legal expenses. Obviously Zimmerman with $2.5 million in legal bills is not a benefeciary of SYG.

TBT listed 8 SYG cases involving a white defendant and a black victim. I wonder where the news media and the anti-SYG activists get their "hundreds of blacks killed by SYG"?

On the Zimmerman case, I noticed the original Sanford police incident report used the 090C code for self-defense, but the case was investigated as possible negligent manslaughter, unnecessary killing in response to an unlawful act. If you watched the girlfriend's testimony PLUS the transcript of her post-trial interview on Piers Morgan Live, Trayvon Martin had lost Zimmerman and had reached the Brandi Green home, plenty of time to avoid Zimmerman, but decided to go back to where Zimmerman was waiting on the cops to arrive in response to his call to dispatch, in order to confront Zimmerman and in Rachel's words "whoop a**" as "new school" does, rather than go inside, call Dad or call 911 himself (calling authority? that's "old school" that's retarded). I found Charles Barkley followed the testimony and evidence and came to the same conclusion I did. Martin made it a matter of self-defense. Zimmerman may have over-reacted (he started carrying a gun because the neighbor's pit bull cornered him in his own garage) and may have been guilty of unnecessary killing in response to an unlawful act, negligent manslaughter, but Special Prosecutor Angela Corey, as she does with black defendants, ramped the charge up at (my count) three degrees higher than the evidence would prove: she skipped from negligent manslaughter, past voluntary manslaughter, past 3rd degree murder to 2nd degree murder, then presented evidence that did not support 2nd degree. The defense was able to convince the jury Zimmerman thought he was going to die after being punched to the ground.

Barkley's comments here: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/vi...zimmerman_trial_i_agree_with_the_verdict.html

I have used the facts about the murder (instead of manslaughter) charge when arguing with "antis". If anyone wants to gripe about GZ walking away free, they need to direct their indignation at the overzealous prosecutor, NOT the laws in FL.

 

[RustyShackelford]

Or....

The people outside of central Florida & Sanford could consider all the facts of the case.
Some anti-gunners & "shrieking violets" can't seem to grasp the chain of events in the court case. :banghead:

I had to explain to a young(22-25 year old) New Yorker how the actual incident took place, step by step. He was unaware of Florida's Castle Doctrine & how the self defense(lethal force) statues worked. He couldn't "get" how your personal vehicle is considered your property(an extension of your domicile).
If a thug or armed car-jacker rushes up to your vehicle, you have the right to defend yourself/family & use lethal force.

Rusty

 

[lindy]

There are Four types of homicide: Felonious, Accidental, Justifiable, and Praiseworthy.
-Ambrose Bierce


Lindy

 

[lemaymiami]

I was glad to see that my state's "SYG" law withstood the press of emotion/politics.... and figure the outcome would have been far different if Crist was our current governor.

Funny thing, as a retired cop I always thought that the SYG law was flawed in that it didn't encourage an ordinary citizen to do everything possible to avoid a shooting before the fact. In practice it's been a good law (despite the fools that continue to try to use it as a defense after a clearly in-defensible shooting in individual cases).

As far as homicide rates go I have to disagree with anyone that tries to link any reduction in murders to the law since the one has nothing to do with the other. There are only two things I'm aware of that have really affected the rate of homicides... The first is that we simply keep violent folks locked up a lot more than we did when I first came in to police work (1973). Given our current administration in Washington -that's going to change unfortunately... The second item that can really have an impact on homicide rates is for local law enforcement to dedicate real resources and efforts toward domestic violence interventions. That sort of stuff really does work and far, far too many killings are domestic related and pretty much predictable if you know about such things. Unlike all the popular entertainments showing the opposite in real life it's much more family/friend oriented since no one else makes someone angry enough to kill....

As far as local law enforcement efforts go you really can get noticeable results with domestic intervention (and to a lesser extent heavy anti- youth gang efforts). I've seen it done -but it's certainly not very glamorous at all....

 

[RustyShackelford]

Reduce violent crime....

In my view, you can reduce the violent crime(homicides) by following the example of VA's George Allan. When he was Gov in the 1990s, Allan wanted to ensure violent offenders served full prison terms or "prime time". A concept where young aggressive felons did 10/15/20/25 year terms mandatory.

When these killers/sexual predators/armed robbers are "out of the game", they aren't able to rob-rape-kill. A young felon who's 20 or 22 & commits murder wouldn't be back out until he's 40/45 or so. The state(DoC) wouldn't be paying for his healthcare or having to be stuck with his food/shelter/etc costs. The 45 year old ex-con's less likely to be roaming the streets too.

Studies & research shows that communities that incarcerate extremely violent or aggressive felons for extended periods are safer.
As noted in the topic too, violent crime is down overall, even in large cities like New York & Chicago.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

In practice it's been a good law (despite the fools that continue to try to use it as a defense after a clearly in-defensible shooting in individual cases).

Unfortunately lawyers do try anything to get their clients off or at least get a reduced sentence, even if it means invoking things that really don't apply to the case (not just SYG). Some of the time I think those efforts back fire with a lot of juries.

We have a version of SYG. If I am where I have a right to be I can stand my ground and defend; However, I suspect that if a reasonable jury felt I could walk away without taking a bullet, knife or 2x4 to my back, they might not have much sympathy. I take SYG as removing me having to prove I could not safely retreat in the face of an attack. To me SYG does not change the fact that "strategic withdrawal" is a good self-defense method when it is practical.

 

[gym]

It just supersedes the old rule of having to run away, "retreat". That was a stupid way to write a law to begin with, Why should I have to run out of my own home, if some maniac comes in. It also can save you from spending your life savings, as once you declare that you are claiming Stand your ground law, it is up to the investigators to prove otherwise. Especially if an armed suspect with a long string of arrests, is on your property and you had no other choice. That in itself can save you from losing everything you own while some predicate felon's family gets a sheister lawyer to try and shake you down in civil court.
Great law signed by Bushes Brother Jeb, our old Governor, who did this right as he left office. Smart guy, he didn't have to take the heat as he did it in his last days as Governor.

 

[RustyShackelford]

Don't provoke & don't pursue....

In the early days of the GZ mess, the city of Orlando Florida, www.cityoforlando.net , pushed a political agenda telling citizens to "don't provoke & don't pursue" in crime prevention/neighborhood watch situations.
This SOP(logic) is flawed for a # of reasons. Mainly it puts the burden on the citizen(upstanding & law-abiding) to avoid any interactions or conflicts with street criminals. This is nearly impossible since crooks & violent felons attack first.
Now, I can agree that regular citizens should not escalate violent crimes or take unnecessary risks to the general public(spraying into a crowd with gunfire, chasing a armed thug, throwing a pipe bomb, etc) but if you use deadly force to protect yourself & you are not out looking for trouble, then "don't provoke don't pursue" doesn't really apply.

FWIW; the city officials in Orlando(led by the attys more than likely) removed the "don't provoke, don't pursue" section from the city website in mid 2013.
It's refreshing when public officials come to their senses.

 

[we are not amused]

It is rather disheartening to go on a gun site and find people who still think George Zimmerman was a criminal or racist.

I would like to think anyone who owns a gun, and belongs to a pro-gun web site, would have followed that case close enough to have realized that young Trevon Martin was a thug, (no wannabe about it, look at his cell phone records) and George Zimmerman acted both properly and within the law.

Massad Ayoob gave an interview on Armed America Radio to Mark Walters, where he explained, at length, that when Zimmerman initially followed Martin, he did so at the request of the police dispatcher, and then quit when told it wasn't necessary. He also explained the Law on self defense, and how Zimmerman acted correctly under it. It is clear from the testimony of the girl on the phone with Martin, that Martin instigated the confrontation, she later stated in an interview that she believed that Martin threw the first punch. All the physical evidence and eye witness testimony backed George Zimmerman's version of the event. It should never have gone to trial, and the News Media should be ashamed of the way they deliberately misrepresented what happened, and lied about it.

While I wouldn't call Zimmerman a hero, because he simply did what he had to do, he was entirely blameless for the incident, and an innocent victim of the anti-gun media and race hustling politicians.

The anti-gun Media and politicians tried to use this case to overturn commonsense gun laws, and deliberately tried to convict an innocent man to do so.

I am heartened by the lack of success in this case, despite the enormous pressure brought by the anti-gunners to change the law. Definitely a win for our side and common sense!

 

[gym]

If you read Ayoobs 7 or more, part series on the Zimmerman case, he brought many things to light that he couldn't' speak about during the trial, since he was involved at some point. It is still probably available on his website, and if you read it, you will see how they tried to railroad the guy right from the removal of the Chief who refused to charge him.
The consensus was a gang of politicians, prosecutors etc, who should have all been let go for even pursuing the case..The entire series can be found here.
http://www.backwoodshome.com/

 

[RustyShackelford]

GZ case; labels....

I, for one, would not consider GZ a racist but I also would not think his statements & actions were "harmless" or without any valid criticism either.
In short, I think Zimmerman got into a situation, it spiraled out of control, then he(GZ) had to use lethal force to defend himself from Martin.
FWIW; I don't think the Sanford HOA neighbors(witnesses) were completely honest or credible either.
I think their statements & testimony were slanted because they didn't want to be viewed as "racist" or have any threats/harassment for supporting GZ's version of the events that rainy night.
I'd add that I wouldn't label Martin a "thug". He's dead so he can not explain his actions or rational in court or anywhere else.
From what was reported, he comes across as a young guy with a lot of serious problems. From the information provided to the public(mainly thru the media), TM could have contacted 911 or returned to his father's girlfriend's home but instead circled back & engaged Zimmerman a second time.

The Sanford PD was pushing to frame the investigation towards GZ firing by accident or being reckless, but his documented medical injuries(head, nose, etc) & the fact that he used a DA only Kel-Tec 9x19mm(Sellor & Ballot JHP) but the State Atty's Office chose not to press those charges.

Rusty

 

[I6turbo]

GZ is the worst kind of vigilante and his behavior is a perfect example of how NOT to behave as a CCW holder.

Did you watch the trial? It was entirely clear that Zimmerman used his weapon only at the point that the was legitimately in fear for his life. That is, when the assailant had him down on the concrete pounding him. That part was pretty much proven without any doubt. If a man can't defend himself at that point, then when?

 

[we are not amused]

I, for one, would not consider GZ a racist but I also would not think his statements & actions were "harmless" or without any valid criticism either.
In short, I think Zimmerman got into a situation, it spiraled out of control, then he(GZ) had to use lethal force to defend himself from Martin.
FWIW; I don't think the Sanford HOA neighbors(witnesses) were completely honest or credible either.
I think their statements & testimony were slanted because they didn't want to be viewed as "racist" or have any threats/harassment for supporting GZ's version of the events that rainy night.
I'd add that I wouldn't label Martin a "thug". He's dead so he can not explain his actions or rational in court or anywhere else.
From what was reported, he comes across as a young guy with a lot of serious problems. From the information provided to the public(mainly thru the media), TM could have contacted 911 or returned to his father's girlfriend's home but instead circled back & engaged Zimmerman a second time.

The Sanford PD was pushing to frame the investigation towards GZ firing by accident or being reckless, but his documented medical injuries(head, nose, etc) & the fact that he used a DA only Kel-Tec 9x19mm(Sellor & Ballot JHP) but the State Atty's Office chose not to press those charges.

Rusty

I don't understand your reasoning of accusing the witness's of lying to avoid a charge of racism? Are you saying they lied about seeing Martin on top of Zimmerman beating on him? Or that the girl that Martin was talking to on the phone who essentially corroborated Zimmerman's account, was lying for some reason? And why would they lie anyway? You called them liars for supporting Zimmerman's story, but claim they did it to avoid charges of racism? Considering the reckless charges of racism being thrown around by irresponsible race hustlers and the Media against Zimmerman, I fail to understand why they would support him, if they were lying to avoid charges of racism.
I do not follow your logic on that one. Please explain.

Perhaps Martin does not fit your definition of a young thug, but he certainly fits mine. I guess one person's troubled youth is somebody else's thug, especially if one is the victim of that troubled youth.

Actually, at the time this whole case was turned into an anti-gun media circus by a bunch of race hustling hypocrites and an out of control, biased, agenda driven News Media, the Sanford Police Dept. had not concluded their investigation, or closed the case. All indications were that they were going to go with justifiable self defense, but the actual decision had not yet been made. The case had not yet been presented to a Prosecutor or a Grand Jury. The fact that Zimmerman told them that he deliberately fired in self defense, makes it impossible for the Police to claim he fired by accident.