For a duty pistol, does a rail matter?

[mgmorden]

A rail doesn't hurt anything but appearance, but realistically people who use guns for a living made do for a LONG time without strapping lights to their guns. It hasn't become a tactical necessity now that there are more companies selling lights that attach to guns.

 

[LUCKYDAWG13]

Like a lot of other people have said if for carry no home defense absolutely

 

[JR24]

A rail doesn't hurt anything but appearance, but realistically people who use guns for a living made do for a LONG time without strapping lights to their guns. It hasn't become a tactical necessity now that there are more companies selling lights that attach to guns.

But quite a few folks who carry a gun for a living DO have lights on them now. Just because folks made do for a long time with .38 specials doesn't mean that there aren't better options available now.

Progress and all that.

 

[Dudedog]

Streamlight makes the TLR6 laser light combo for 1911s without rails in case you get one without a rail and want a laser-light.

 

[Old Dog]

EVERY SINGLE WEAPON that is intended to be used for defensive purposes, should be fitted with a weapon mounted light. Hand gun, or long gun

Well now, that sounds very authoritative. I wouldn't go so far as to dictate this, but I'd certainly strongly recommend that a good light be considered mandatory in conjunction with one's firearm though not necessarily mounted to the weapon. The issue remains, particularly for civilians, that if a WML is the only light one has, there is a strong tendency to point the weapon in the direction one wishes to illuminate.

I'd rephrase to say, EVERY SINGLE PERSON who has a weapon intended to be used for defensive purposes should train, at a minimum, to use a hand-held light with a handgun. Having a WML in addition is a big plus, obviously.

The ability to identify your target is critical.

No argument there.

With regard to the original question, I'd say for a primary duty weapon, the ability to mount a WML should exist …

 

[Kevin Rohrer]

Putting a light on a gun that you are going to hold in front of your face does nothing but give BGs an aiming point.

Better to learn how to use your big flashlight, and the personal one on your belt. Currently, I carry a clip-on, AA powered LED light clipped to my uniform shirt. It is light, out-of-the way, instantly available, and more than bright enough to light-up anything smaller than the Super Dome. I can use my handheld light in the old FBI stance, Harries stance, or whatever.

 

[Paco42]

I think the preponderance of the testimony presented thus far clearly points in favor of rails on handguns, or at least “duty weapons” and home defense weapons. The prospective uses of the rails are now being debated, and I suspect most of us sense where the majority of opinions will land, more or less. I’ll only add this: for any handgun to be used in self-defense (including home defense scenarios and out-of-the-home events), if the gun is to be carried concealed, and is of such size that adding the rail negligibly changes the ability to conceal it, then I look to have a rail. If the gun is small enough that adding a rail is impossible or highly impractical from the perspective of concealment options, then I don’t. A tiny .380? No rail. Glock 19? A rail. 1911? Rail. A Bondophile’s little .32 ACP PPK? No rail. And so on.

 

[Rock185]

During my last few years in LE, I noticed more and more of the newer officers showing up with lights on their pistols. I think it's near universal now in LE. I didn't have a weapon mounted light, but during searches with those that had them, I could see the utility.

 

[Trey Veston]

Putting a light on a gun that you are going to hold in front of your face does nothing but give BGs an aiming point.

Better to learn how to use your big flashlight, and the personal one on your belt.

I remember being taught that at the academy in the 80's.

I figured that way of thinking had gone the way of the giant Maglites decades ago. I guess not. Are mullets still a thing, too?

 

[Space Ghost]

Like a lot of other people have said if for carry no home defense absolutely

I've heard a lot of people make comments similar to this. A lot... What I can't figure out is why. Is it the size, and weight, or do they have an unrealistic expectation of self defense when carrying? (mugged in broad daylight in the Walmart parking lot the only scenario)

I do know that a lot of people are absolutely obsessed with small guns, and keeping them from printing.

I'm not. A proper holster, proper belt, proper cover garment, and a populace that generally doesn't give a crap about anything not on their phones has me not caring one bit about if my full size gun may print a bit or not, but I can get a good grip on it, and it has decent magazine capacity, and can mount a light.

Also, do people who carry not ever go into places that are (or could be) dark? (Movie theater, parking garage, mall, walking with your wife through the park after dinner in the evening) Imagine you're in the mall, and the lights go out, then you here gunfire... There ain't no windows... few have skylights. If you're packing around a weapon, you're planning for things to go wrong. Things don't just go wrong in well lit places, or at well lit times of day. The people who do wrong things tend to plan them out that way much of the time...

I think that lights, (especially weapon mounted ones) are a technology that people are slow to accept, much like how police departments were slow to accept the semi-auto handgun, preferring instead to stick with the old wheel gun when they were getting outgunned on the street by crooks with high capacity autos... Like how departments didn't want rifles in patrol cars until after the North Hollywood shootout...

Keep in mind, the only time I've ever shot, or been shot at, has been during military deployments,but... I, you, we, typically carry for self defense... The chance of any of us ever getting into gunfight again here in the States is very, very small. However, if that ever does happen, the chance of it being in low light conditions, are very good. If you're gonna go to the trouble of packing around a gun, it makes good sense to equip it with a light.

 

[jmr40]

On a gun intended to save your life I much prefer the option of having the option of a light. It isn't always possible on some of the smaller carry guns but certainly for duty use or home defense.

And while I like a 1911, it just ain't right having a rail on one. But I don't consider a 1911 as a front line duty weapon. It was surpassed by other designs long ago. I'll keep my 1911's traditional and enjoy shooting them. My more modern guns will have rails and have lights on those rails when practical.

 

[mrmike7189]

The thing I dont like about lasers or lights mounted to your gun. It makes your gun larger and heavier. Plus you have to change batteries frequently if you use the light a lot. I'd rather have a streamlight with the endcap switch that I can easily handle and not have to manipulate a switch on my gun and then lose my good grip. I do see lots of new officers with weapon lights. "not my thing....but "To each his own".

 

[JTQ]

For a duty gun, carried by military or LE, a mounted light is probably a good idea. However, for the concealed carrier, probably not really a need, and possibly a hinderance.

I've heard a lot of people make comments similar to this. A lot... What I can't figure out is why. Is it the size, and weight, or do they have an unrealistic expectation of self defense when carrying? (mugged in broad daylight in the Walmart parking lot the only scenario)

Keep in mind, the only time I've ever shot, or been shot at, has been during military deployments,but...

The military/LE paradigm. Civilian concealed carry has a different set of circumstances.

I list this quote from noted firearm trainer Tom Givens. He has probably done the most tracking of civilian concealed carrier use of firearms. Though this quote is regards to night sights, it is the same for mounted lights on concealed carry handguns.

https://civiliandefender.com/2016/04/01/low-light-red-sights-and-tom-givens-glock-35/

...in the 60 plus defensive shootings his students have been involved in, the lighting (or lack of lighting) was a factor in the outcome in exactly ZERO cases.

An American Handgunner article "When Citizens Fight Back" https://americanhandgunner.com/featured/when-citizens-fight-back/


This from Tucker Gun Leather https://tuckergunleather.com/faq/

Q. Does Tucker recommend carrying a defensive pistol with a light attached to an accessory rail?

A. Tucker says, "If you're on a SWAT team, go for it. If not, your pistol is a quick-response tool for a sudden and extreme self-defense situation. If you have a light on the gun, you may find it distracting enough to slow down your response."

 

[Hasaf]

I used to be strongly in the "No" camp. I am still not sold on lights mounted to pistols. the idea of having something mounted on the pistol that requires a non-shooting related action, on the part of the user, still seems to be a path to unintended discharges. I am also not in favor of "looking at things" by pointing a pistol at them. It seems no better than "looking at someone" in the field by using the rifle mounted scope.

I am scheduling a shooting course this year to see if I can come away with a different attitude. However, I don't expect much. The best "shooting class" that I took was an intensive two-week range class (this is not counting the classroom, and other activities, time) exclusively using the 1911 and shotguns. This was all paid for by taxpayers (thanks guys ). There is no way I can see ever paying for a class like that out of my pocket, so my expectations are a bit lower.

So why have I moved from the No camp on rails (even if I still think they look ugly. . . )?

One widget, the Mantis X. I have no connection to them, I am just a satisfied customer. I no longer have any form of mandatory training. However, that little gyrosensor, and related software, is like having a coach with me whenever I go to the range.

One game a few others and I have played is to shoot for the highest score on the Mantis. It should come as no surprise that a high score on the Mantis equates to a very good group. However, t makes for a different game.

Going back, I have softened on rails, but I am still not sold on weapon lights in a civilian environment.

 

[Space Ghost]

The thing I dont like about lasers or lights mounted to your gun. It makes your gun larger and heavier.

Yes, a light will make your gun somewhat larger, and heavier. However, depending on what light you get, it can differ greatly on how much larger and heavier. Also, even the biggest, and heaviest lights only measure a few ounces, so it's not like it's gonna be too heavy for you now its it? Really?

Plus you have to change batteries frequently if you use the light a lot. I'd rather have a streamlight with the endcap switch that I can easily handle and not have to manipulate a switch on my gun and then lose my good grip. I do see lots of new officers with weapon lights. "not my thing....but "To each his own".

Well, first off we're talking about a weapon mounted light, not the one you keep in your pocket, (you should have both) so you shouldn't be using it a lot. At least not on a daily basis. You don't unholster your damn weapon to see where you dropped your keys in the parking garage... This is where your pocket light comes in.

Secondly, yeah, you'll be changing batteries, at least once in a while. In daily carry, the weapon should NEVER come out of the holster unless it is needed, but you should still be training with it from time to time. You train with your firearm itself don't you? Well, you have to buy ammo when you expend some in training... same thing with a light, but it eats batteries rather than ammo.

Also, with that training, comes the ability to manipulate the switch of the light properly, so you don't lose your "good grip" Please don't say you do "not have to"... say you do "not want to put forth the effort to learn how to" manipulate a switch.

 

[Kevin Rohrer]

I remember being taught that at the academy in the 80's.

I figured that way of thinking had gone the way of the giant Maglites decades ago. I guess not. Are mullets still a thing, too?

Old does not mean out-of-date.

New does not mean better; it just mean new.

 

[JR24]

I'd rather have a streamlight with the endcap switch that I can easily handle and not have to manipulate a switch on my gun and then lose my good grip.

I manipulate the WML with my support hand, the same one I would be holding a flashlight in (I do keep both handy, I like options). How does using a WML disturb your "good grip" where holding a flash in your off hand would not?

 

[KenW.]

As a cop since 1996, I strongly advise a light on a duty pistol. Bad things happen in the dark, and I get to search basements routinely.A mounted light is NOT a replacement for a handheld.

 

[psyopspec]

Let's say for tactical applications, like a lot of my guns it'll be mainly used as a range toy but I consider theoretical ability to service as a tactical tool to be part of the cool factor

Then yes, absolutely you should have a rail.

 

[herrwalther]

My EDC carry firearm has had a light on it for quite a few years now. Even my small, slim 9mm has a 100 lumen light and green laser. The argument that having a light is a disadvantage just doesn't hold any credence anymore. Heavy? Even the big lights like the X300 and TRL1 HL only weight about 4 oz. Holsters? Kydex is easy to shape and everyone's brother is doing it. More companies are making holsters for lights. Batteries? I use rechargeable and change them out every 2 weeks. They all get tested before I put my firearm on. Batteries get replaced every few years with fresh and I use the old ones in something else until they die entirely.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

I've heard a lot of people make comments similar to this. A lot... What I can't figure out is why. Is it the size, and weight, or do they have an unrealistic expectation of self defense when carrying? (mugged in broad daylight in the Walmart parking lot the only scenario)

I do know that a lot of people are absolutely obsessed with small guns, and keeping them from printing.

I'm not. A proper holster, proper belt, proper cover garment, and a populace that generally doesn't give a crap about anything not on their phones has me not caring one bit about if my full size gun may print a bit or not, but I can get a good grip on it, and it has decent magazine capacity, and can mount a light.

Also, do people who carry not ever go into places that are (or could be) dark? (Movie theater, parking garage, mall, walking with your wife through the park after dinner in the evening) Imagine you're in the mall, and the lights go out, then you here gunfire... There ain't no windows... few have skylights. If you're packing around a weapon, you're planning for things to go wrong. Things don't just go wrong in well lit places, or at well lit times of day. The people who do wrong things tend to plan them out that way much of the time...

I think that lights, (especially weapon mounted ones) are a technology that people are slow to accept, much like how police departments were slow to accept the semi-auto handgun, preferring instead to stick with the old wheel gun when they were getting outgunned on the street by crooks with high capacity autos... Like how departments didn't want rifles in patrol cars until after the North Hollywood shootout...

Keep in mind, the only time I've ever shot, or been shot at, has been during military deployments,but... I, you, we, typically carry for self defense... The chance of any of us ever getting into gunfight again here in the States is very, very small. However, if that ever does happen, the chance of it being in low light conditions, are very good. If you're gonna go to the trouble of packing around a gun, it makes good sense to equip it with a light.

I'm not asking you to agree, because I see you feel strongly, but for me, a weapon mounted light is not always needed because of my risk mitigating behavior.

I have two HD guns stashed in my home. In my gun room, where I spend a lot of time, I have my CZ Shadow 2. It doesn't have a light on it now, but likely will in the future. I worry less about this gun as I always have the lights on in there, and am not in there too terribly late. So in the event of a home invasion, I should be able to see. But like I said, I'll probably add one next time my preferred model (TLR7) is on sale.

My bedside gun, a VP9 with night sights and has a TLR7 on it, and I feel a light on any bedside gun is crucial.

However, I live in a small town that is for the most part quiet. Bad things do happen, but very infrequently. None the less, I do carry in my little town anywhere legal. However, I don't typically go out after dark, and if I do, it's to a friend's house, or to a local watering hole. I am not legally able to carry in bars, so when going out at night in my little berg, I tend to carry one of my Zero Tolerance knives. It's not ideal in any way, but it's better than nothing.

I do the majority of my shopping in the larger city an hour away from me. Lot's of bad things happen there, but as usual, they typically happen at night. Not always, and I almost always carry there. But I leave for the city early in the morning. Being there in daylight does make printing a little more of a concern to me as there are more people out, and you can just see easier, but I don't really sweat it as I'm not breaking the law. I am usually headed home long before dark. Occasionally there are delays and I'm there into early evening, but I am very deliberate about avoiding poorly lit locations in parking lots or other places I think an attack would be easily executed. And I choose to carry guns with night sights to help. I agree with you about being able to identify your target, but for my circumstances, that isn't going to be hard to do.

I see your point about dark locations, but again I go during the day when theaters are not even close to full, and lunatics typically choose times when they'll have a lot of targets, as in the evening.

So I'm not really saying I disagree with you in principal, but I am saying there are a lot of us rural people out there who do things a certain way that minimizes our risk. So I don't think this notion is quite as absolute as you portrayed it.

One thing is for sure. Having a light can sure be a clear benefit in a lot of ways, and LED lights are making it easier and easier all the time.

 

[Jenrick]

Carrying a wml doesn't preclude you from carrying a seperate light. You should already have a seperate light anyway, how to do you find you credit card when you drop it between you seat and the center console? Ideally carrying a wml and a separate light ensures that you have redundancy for that day that Murphy comes calling (if you are already having to draw you gun, and you are in a situation where you need a light, rest assured Murphy is already with you). If I had to pick one I'd go for a separate light, as it has many uses, but I don't have to just pick one.

 

[Riomouse911]

Is a handgun rail an item that allows for the option of mounting a light/laser on your pistol? Yes.
Is a lack of a rail a deal breaker for me? No.

Look at your own situation and find what best fits that. A light/laser just may be the ticket... or it may not be. Only you can know for sure.

I’ve carried S&W and SIG Sauer autos that didn’t have rails. I survived 16.5 years in uniformed patrol as an Ofc/Cpl/Sgt in So Cal. About 13+ years of that time was on weekend graveyards. Would a light have been handy? Yes at times it sure would have. But it wasn’t mandatory, and I never felt undergunned or out “tacticalled” by utilizing the lights I carried on me every night along with my sidearm... and I worked in some lousy-ass neighborhoods where my gun was usually out of my holster several times a shift.

I went to a Glock 19 and now carry a Glock 34 every day, the past 13 years and counting as an investigator/supervisor. I don’t have a light or laser on it, but I could mount one if I wanted to.

Again, there is no hard and fast rule. Properly used and trained with they can be very useful indeed....especially if most of your out of doors carry is at night. But they’re not a panacea for all situations, nor should you be crucified for buying a gun that doesn’t allow for one to be mounted if it doesn’t fit your situation.

Stay safe.

 

[bannockburn]

460Shooter

I don’t hang anything on my carry guns. My home defense guns do get a light.

Same with me! I have a flashlight with me at all times when I have my carry gun with me. My home defense gun is a SIG P229R with a SIG STL-900L laser/light combo on it. The light is nice and bright and also has a strobe setting that I like a lot.

 

[TonyAngel]

Better to have it and not need it....