Force on Force Equipment

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sherman123

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I was wondering if anyone here knows anything about obtaining force on Force firearms (such as the Glock 17 T FX for example). It is my understanding that while Glock does not sell them directly to civilians they are still legal to own. Does anyone have first hand experience with using these(with proper safety equipment and ONLY while following the utmost safety practices and protocols) for training privately? I see items such as these guns(or conversion kits that include a slide and barrel combination which go on a real frame) on certain gun auction sites from time to time and have gotten interested recently. If so, what do you recommend as the best options? I have gotten most interested in the conversion kits and was researching the logistics and costs of obtaining one or two along with marking cartridges, safety equipment and a Glock frame(if I choose to go with a conversion kit) What would be the cheapest and best route to go, if any?
Thanks
 
As far as I know, no one in the industry sells that equipment directly to the public. There are instructor courses they require before they will sell you the equipment.

Strambo has some experience with that. Perhaps he will chime in.
 
I don't know the cost involved as all I did was have the agency I worked for was send me the guns and equpiment. Safety equpiment included gloves, helmets with neck protection, chest and back protection, and groin protection. No exposed skin. A heavy jacket will do for the arms. Jeans will do for the legs.
 
You also need a place where the projectiles are pretty much contained and one you don't have to worry about the dye from the bullets being cleaned up. I had the good fortune to use abandoned government buildings and a firefighter training facility.

I would also check your liability insurance. This is using projectiles intended to be aimed at someone. They will no doubt cause a serious eye injury. They can cause a welt on exposed skin. Not a concern really in LE and military training but something you need to consider. Protective equipment for spectators too.

You need to devise scenarios that are realistic and have role players that do this. Otherwise it will wind up like most paintball exercises. "I got you...no I got you first".
 
I looked into simunitions, need to take their training, buy all their protective equipment and show you have 2 million dollars in liability coverage before they'll sell to you.
 
You probably DO NOT want to use the Simunition FX or UTM type firearm conversions and marking rounds for private training for many reasons. The main reason is cost, this stuff is very spendy. Next reason is access, formally, you need to be LE/Mil or a Simunition certified instructor as mentioned above to buy it direct. Finally, safety, it is more injury potential than other options (and messy) and it introduces more issues of getting live weapons/ammo mixed up.

Can you buy it? Sure, stalk Gunbroker, the guns and ammo come up for sale semi-regularly. Glock 17Ts used still go for about $700. Conversions can be had in the $300-400 range used. Ammo is harder to find and about $1/round (retail cost is about .56 ea. to buy direct, so it's spendy either way).

Airsoft is the way to go, no doubt. Good quality blowback Airsoft guns are sub $150 for pistols, decent ARs for ~$300. Pennies per shot and you don't need expensive protective gear, no mess to clean up. Some trainers use airsoft for their FoF courses. The only reason I went Simunition was because I wanted to provide an authentic high-end experience for my course attendees, but airsoft will get you 90% the benefit for 10% cost.

The hardest part of FoF training isn't the gear though....it is having the knowledge to run it safely an the knowledge to be able to set up and conduct effective training scenarios.

Minimum, establish a "safe area" for training. Everyone in the area, too include any instructors, role players, and bystanders gets a full pat down for any live weapons/ammo to include knives (and their bags) no exceptions...ever. If anyone leaves the safe area, they get patted down upon re-entry.
 
The planning and conduct of FoF training is much more important then what engagement simulator you use. No engagement simulator is realistic. Yes, some are more realistic then others, but you have to plan your scenario around the unreal aspects of all of them.

Concealment is cover for every simulator that I know of. That's just an example of one thing you plan your scenario around. You can conduct effective force on force training with everything from toy guns and rubber knives to simunitions, it's all in the planning and conduct of the training.
 
I'll dive a little deeper since I actually have been exploring the used market on this stuff for about a year because even though I can buy it direct, I wanted to save money where I could. The cheapest conversions are for old LE duty guns like Beretta 92, Sig P226s, the S&W guns. I got 2x P226 conversions for $25 ea. I also got a P225/P6 already converted for Simuntion for $289 and a 9mm M16A2 Sim upper for $330. A G17 frame and patience will have you into it for probably $600 shipped when you score the conversion. UTM AR conversions seem to show up regularly as well.

That said, now you need ammo and that is the hard part. Very sporatic, ~$1 per as stated above and it is probably old, maybe so old the marking soap is hard and won't work very well.

Between Ebay and Gunbroker, I have never seen much in the way of protective gear, basically nothing. Paintball/airsoft gear is not safe at all IMO. The 5.56 marking rounds are tiny and move out at about 500-550fps. The 9mm rounds are actually only .30 cal and step out at 450fps or so. You need full face protection, something for the top of your head (unless scalp lacerations are cool), throat and groin protection. All skin covered as well and gloves.

For Airsoft, just a face mask and cup is probably the minimum though I'd want neck protection. I have airsoft guns, but haven't done FoF with them except some gun disarmament stuff.
 
I've thought about that myself. A few things have made me decide it's impractical for me. Number one, I don't know anyone who's going to want to play with me! Those things hurt.

Another issue is even if I could convince a friend to play with me, is he going to be as dedicated to actual training vs. just playing glorified paintball? Is he going to be willing to spend the exorbitant amount of money for the ammunition, assuming a steady supply of it is even available? I'm certainly not in a financial position to outfit everyone with ammo for those things. Just to put it into perspective, some national guard units have dropped simunitions type stuff for traditional paintballs due to cost, using AR style mag fed paintball guns. They also cited reliability problems with the ammo.

Another problem is where to play (um, train I mean). You can't just shoot those things in each other's houses. Your wives would kill you. That leaves the great outdoors, which isn't exactly realistic training for most home/self defense scenarios. I guess if you had a big shop and didn't mind getting paint all over the place...

The solution though might very well be airsoft. Believe it or not, there are swat teams and military units using airsoft for training, and some very well respected trainers are recommending it to their students. The ammo is cheap, you can fire them inside (just put away the fine china), and they're reasonably realistic. They also don't hurt nearly as bad, meaning you'll probably get someone to play with you more than once. As long as you keep the training within realistic parameters and don't let it turn into a game it might be valuable.

I'm seriously considering picking up a used airsoft rifle to see just how feasible it is.
 
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The marking cartridges are better/the best option for FoF from a training perspective (especially for beginner to FoF) for one main reason. That is, the pain penalty. Or even more fundamental, the fear/anticipation of pain (whether you get hit or not). This is a main component to the stress created by a FoF scenario (along with uncertainty and performance anxiety).

After you have been exposed to it a few times, the pain penalty anxiety becomes no big deal. At this point, the more advanced trainees or units tend to bail on things like Simunition FX for other training methodologies/tools without the downsides the marking cartridges have (cost, protective gear etc.). This means it worked though, the trainee has been exposed to enough of the stress level provided by the marking rounds that they now can perform under that stress no problem whereas their first few times through they were probably a soup-sandwitch.

I went deeper into that in my thread about training methods. An experienced SWAT team would be better served for the most part with force on target shoothouses, live shoothouses and also blank FoF scenarios where all the extra gear isn't needed and cleanup isn't an issue opening up more training venues. The rookie cop or soldier, civilian OTOH, needs to experience the extra stress of some marking cartridge FoF exercises before moving on.

Airsoft doesn't provide that level of pain penalty, but given all the other downsides to the marking cartridges for private use, it comes out on top IMO.
 
strambo said:
The marking cartridges are better/the best option for FoF from a training perspective (especially for beginner to FoF) for one main reason. That is, the pain penalty. Or even more fundamental, the fear/anticipation of pain (whether you get hit or not). This is a main component to the stress created by a FoF scenario (along with uncertainty and performance anxiety).

After you have been exposed to it a few times, the pain penalty anxiety becomes no big deal. At this point, the more advanced trainees or units tend to bail on things like Simunition FX for other training methodologies/tools without the downsides the marking cartridges have (cost, protective gear etc.). This means it worked though, the trainee has been exposed to enough of the stress level provided by the marking rounds that they now can perform under that stress no problem whereas their first few times through they were probably a soup-sandwitch.

I went deeper into that in my thread about training methods. An experienced SWAT team would be better served for the most part with force on target shoothouses, live shoothouses and also blank FoF scenarios where all the extra gear isn't needed and cleanup isn't an issue opening up more training venues. The rookie cop or soldier, civilian OTOH, needs to experience the extra stress of some marking cartridge FoF exercises before moving on.

Airsoft doesn't provide that level of pain penalty, but given all the other downsides to the marking cartridges for private use, it comes out on top IMO.
Click to expand...

There's a laser setup out there (can't remember the name) that juices you whenever you get hit. It's basically like the MILES system but with a pain penalty like you were saying. Supposedly even the lower settings are painful enough that people don't want to get hit a second time.
 
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