Forest Service Workers - Guns and Tools

[Catherine]

What do the US Forest Service people carry/pack in your neck of the woods now as in firearms/tools?

Most of you know that they are ARMED now and have been for awhile.

Do yours have a Glock, a 'special' baton, a taser gun, tons of extra magazines, spray, etc. on them?

Do yours all drive NEW fancier vehicles as a big Durango and leave the A/C running?

I can see a BEAR gun and/or a gun for protection especially if you come across some dope ring or a gang in the woods. However I have never seen so much STUFF on a FS worker minus a rifle or shotgun as I did today in the national forest! Maybe the rifle or shotgun was in the fancy vehicle - who knows?!?

So what do they pack in YOUR neck of the woods? Way far out or close to town and/or both?

Catherine

 

[Titan6]

I am not sure what the point of your mild mannered and polite rant is.

Most of you know that they are ARMED now and have been for awhile.

Only if by "a while" you mean always. Local policies on weapon carry do vary however.

Do yours all drive NEW fancier vehicles as a big Durango and leave the A/C running?

Don't know. All government agencies get their vehicles from the same place. They have a giant pool that rents and buys vehicles based upon congressional rules. The vehicles are then requested and assigned to agencies based upon their need and allocation. This is something else that has not changed much over the years either.

Generally the government tries to buy and lease the most reliable US made vehicles that they can find. "US made" is a term that gets difficult as many Dodge Trucks are made in Mexico and Nissans are made in Georgia but the Dodge is "US made" and the Nissan is not. For American car to be reliable it generally needs to be a larger newer vehicle.

All this is paid with your tax dollars of course. Might want to take it up with your congress person as the Forrest Service has little control over what congress does.

 

[MTMilitiaman]

I worked Trail Crew/Rec for the Forest Service from Three Rivers Ranger District, doing a lot of work in "The Yaak," Kootenai National Forest, and the Cabinet Mountain Wilderness.

I worked summers when I went to college from 2001 to 2005, so I haven't been on in two or three years.

But when I was on, you didn't carry weapons and you sure as hell didn't carry firearms.

It is a government job and subject to the same bureaucracy as any military organization. Everything is covered in paperwork, and they train you for everything you have to use and every aspect of your job.

We had to be trained how to use an axe and a chainsaw, how to buck and fall trees, basic first aid and CPR, how to use our radios and coms, had to be certified to drive a government vehicle, ect...

Firearms of any sort for any reason while on the job was expressing forbidden. Technically, they weren't even supposed to be on the property, though everyone knew there was some leniency on that due strictly to the fact that this was Montana, after all. People showed off new acquisitions all the time. But they were never carried and were always kept secured in personal vehicles, and people were discreet even when showing them off.

Some of the crew bosses did get permission to get certified to carry pepper spray as bear defense, but even that was few and far between.

If they are carrying firearms now, it is a radical departure from policy just a couple years ago. And I have to say, I am skeptical the government can even move that fast.

I do okay with a Stihl 044 Magnum though. Ran mine with a 28 inch bar. Most others ran 24 inch bars, but I am tall enough that I could carry it and still keep my bar tip out of the mud, and I found the extra inches helpful on some of the bigger trees that had to be bucked out of the trail.

 

[Titan6]

Oopps. I misspoke. They have only had arrest powers since 1905. My bad.

http://www.fs.fed.us/r3/tonto/LawEnforcement/FAQs/index.shtml

6. What authority does the Forest Service have to enforce laws and make arrests? back to top



Forest Service law enforcement authority derives directly from the Constitution of the United States and several laws enacted by Congress.

Article IV, Section 3, Clause 2, commonly referred to as the “property clause” of the Constitution, allows the federal government to own and protect certain properties not belonging to the individual states… “The Congress shall have Power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States …”

The United States Code contains numerous laws pertaining to the National Forests. The principal laws relating the law enforcement authority are—

The Act of June 4, 1897 , as amended; codified at 16 United States Code, section 551, states “ The Secretary of Agriculture shall make provisions for the protection against destruction by fire and depredations upon the public forests and national forests which may have been set aside…; and he may make such rules and regulations and establish such service as will insure the objects of such reservations, namely, to regulate their occupancy and use and to preserve the forests thereon from destruction; and any violation of the provisions of this section… shall be punished by a fine of not more than $500 or imprisonment for not more than six months, or both. Any person charged with the violation of such rules and regulations may be tried and sentenced by any United States magistrate judge specially designated for that purpose by the court by which he was appointed, in the same manner and subject to the same conditions as provided for in section 3401(b) to (e) of title 18.” (16 usc 551-PDF) The Act of March 3, 1905 , as amended; codified at 16 United States Code, section 559, states “All persons employed in the Forest Service of the United States shall have authority to make arrests for the violation of the laws and regulations relating to the national forests, and any person so arrested shall be taken before the nearest United States magistrate judge, within whose jurisdiction the forest is located, for trial; and upon sworn information by any competent person any United States magistrate judge in the proper jurisdiction shall issue process for the arrest of any person charged with the violation of said laws and regulations; but nothing herein contained shall be construed as preventing the arrest by any officer of the United States, without process, of any person taken in the act of violating said laws and regulations.” (16 usc 559-PDF) The Act of May 23, 1908 , as amended; codified at 16 United States Code, section 553, states “Officials of the Forest Service designated by the Secretary of Agriculture shall, in all ways that are practicable, aid in the enforcement of the laws of the States or Territories with regard to stock, for the prevention and extinguishment of forest fires, and for the protection of fish and game, and with respect to national forests, shall aid the other Federal bureaus and departments on request from them, in the performance of the duties imposed on them by law.” (16 usc 553-PDF) Public Law 92-82, as amended; codified at 16 United States Code, section 551a, states “The Secretary of Agriculture, in connection with the administration and regulation of the use and occupancy of the national forests and national grasslands, is authorized to cooperate with any State or political subdivision thereof, on lands which are within or part of any unit of the national forest system, in the enforcement or supervision of the laws or ordinances of a State or subdivision thereof. Such cooperation may include the reimbursement of a State or its subdivision for expenditures incurred in connection with activities on national forest system lands. This section shall not deprive any State or political subdivision thereof of its right to exercise civil and criminal jurisdiction, within or on lands which are a part of the national forest system.” (16 usc 551a-PDF) And finally, The National Forest System Drug Control Act of 1986, Public Law 99-570, codified at 16 United States Code, sections 559b-559g, establishes that “The purpose of this title is to authorize the Secretary of Agriculture to take action necessary, in connection with the administration and use of the National Forest System, to prevent the manufacture, distribution, or dispensing of marijuana and other controlled substances.” (16 usc 559b-PDF)

 

[Ash]

The US Forest Service has enforcement officers, but the average Forester is not an officer and as a general rule does not enter the woods armed. I can tell you this as a Forester.

Ash

 

[MTMilitiaman]

What does arresting power have to do with anything? Simply having arresting power does not mean you have the authority to be armed. Not in the Forest Service anyways.

Let me explain to you how this works:

You find Joe Blow Mushroom-Picker vandalizing a Forest Service gate on a properly authorized gated Forest Service road. Or Suzy Samaritan at Campground X points out Richard S. Ucker stealing signs and throwing trash in the outhouses. You call the one law enforcement officer given to your district. He's three and a half hours away if he left at that very moment. But he's not leaving at that very moment. He's busy. Today is not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look good either. You gather what info you can, make note of location, date and time, witnesses, gate number, damage done, description of perpetrator, license plate number and vehicle description, ect. Then when you get back to the Ranger Station, you inform the chain of command, get the proper forms, fill them out, turn them in, and it is out of your hand. The law enforcement officer has been informed, as has the chain of command. A paper trail has been made. Your butt is covered, and you'll probably never hear anything more about it regardless of whether further action is pursued. That is the extent of your "arresting powers."

Even if you could do more, you wouldn't. Why? Because this gate being destroyed is of little or no consequence to you. It isn't worth the risk, time, and energy for you to play Walker Texas Ranger. Even if you were capable of arresting said perpetrator, what are you going to do? Read him his Miranda Rights, duct tape his hands together, and throw him in the bed of the truck next to the tool box full of Polaskies and chainsaws, with no seat belt? Because he ain't fitting in the cab. You got six people in an extended cab two door 97 Dodge Ram 1500. Three of these people including yourself are over 6'. Nope. He's not fitting in there...o, we could just tie him to a tree. Or take the rest of the day baby sitting him until another vehicle is driven all the way there to pick him up. In which case, the government ends up spending more money on gas picking him up than it costs to replace the gate. Get real.

The only armed Forest Service workers are the law enforcement officers employed by the Forest Service. We called them Pine Cone Cops. Regardless, you will be fired if you carry a weapon on the job without specific training and authorization, which is obtained only through demonstrated need, a good deal of paperwork, enough time in the system to have some authority and pull, some time performing sexual favors, and not a little bit of luck...

It ain't happening. Not in the Forest Service I worked for. You can argue against people who have worked there, been there, done that, all you want, but you're wrong. Pissing into the wind isn't going to do you a lick of good. It's a losing battle, son--give it up.

 

[Titan6]

I am not arguing that you don't have to have the proper training and be hired for the job all I am saying is that there have been armed USFS officers for as long as I can remember.

Having arrest powers actually does give you the right to carry a weapon to perform that function. If the USFS chooses to limit that right to a certain number of specified people than that is their business.

 

[MMCSRET]

Things have changed a lot over the years. I spent the summer of 1968 on the Sula district of the Bitterroot N.F. working fences, slash burns, painting campground fixtures, etc. Did a little firefighting, everything was "on the job training". When hunting season opened we were allowed to carry one rifle legal for hunting per crew in each vehicle. We got a lot of grouse and a couple of deer. Times have changed, more lawyers, I guess.

 

[TallPine]

About five years ago when we were camping up on the upper Big Hole, a couple of cute rangerettes came by to give us the noxious weed lecture and warn us that there were grizzlies in the area. I didn't bother informing them that I had a hot loaded .45 Vaquero under my wool shirt

What bothered me was that those young gals could get into some difficulties out by themselves if they met up with some less than scrupulous "campers"

 

[thegoodfight]

About five years ago when we were camping up on the upper Big Hole, a couple of cute rangerettes came by to give us the noxious weed lecture and warn us that there were grizzlies in the area. I didn't bother informing them that I had a hot loaded .45 Vaquero under my wool shirt

What bothered me was that those young gals could get into some difficulties out by themselves if they met up with some less than scrupulous "campers"

Did you ask them if they wanted to smoke too?

 

[csmkersh]

There are two very distinct types of Rangers in the National Parks Service. The average Range is really a tour guide and not authorized/allowed to carry. Those in the inforcement section do carry a handgun, not sure if it's a GLOCK or a SIG.

​

 

[big_bang]

I was out in the sticks backpacking in 2004 and came across an unarmed (as far as I knew) female USFS employee. Her primary defense seemed to be a serious case of body odor and a huge husky/shepherd mix. I saw the dog thinking it was a wolf, then smelled her coming. She said she'd been out on foot for 10 days at that point.

 

[TallPine]

Did you ask them if they wanted to smoke too?

The "weeds" referred to are things like spotted knapweed, leafy spurge, etc. I fight this annually on my own land. They want you to wash your car before going onto the NF. (funny, I stopped at the ranger station in Wisdom for maps and they didn't say anything about that )

I was out camping with my wife, two teenage daughters, and three dogs.

I do know from past experience that some Forest Circus workers would selflessly go off into the woods and burn some weed Heard a tale from some fellow loggers about a certain ranger and rangerette that were caught literally with their pants down. It's tough work administering timber sales - especially when you can't get any privacy

 

[RtHG77]

Hey, Catherine, are you sure you haven't confused a forester with a game warden? I don't know how things are done up your way, but around here the GW's and Forestry people have similar uniforms. Only difference is, is that the GW's carry a duty belt (pistol, pepper spray, etc.) similar to a police officers.

But on the other hand, the local Foresters have Crown Victoria's... I should know, I got a speeding ticket from them. When did they start that ****?

 

[Ash]

Okay, then just assume that I, as a Forester who intimately knows and works with US Forest Service Foresters, is a member of the Society of American Foresters with many of them, as well as the Mississippi Forestry Association with them, do not know of which I speak.

Ash

 

[Joshua C]

I feel sorry for you, Ash, you should go private- then you're free to carry (check local listings).

 

[Old Grump]

In my neck of the woods

They may carry binoculars, GPS maybe a jack knife and a tape measure, a pad of paper and a pen. The only dangerous thing is their cell phone. If he is surveying a plot he may have a map and a biltmore stick which he could hit you with if he had to.

The wardens carry a duty belt and are carrying a glock 40 cal. They used to carry 357's. If he is carrying a long barreled gun don't stop and try to chat about the weather or how is his day going.

 

[86thecat]

I don't go out into the wilderness alone, unarmed. Why should I expect a USFS employee to?

 

[Ash]

Oh, I am private and can carry any time I please, as long as my clients allow...

Ash

 

[Joshua C]

Oh, I am private and can carry any time I please, as long as my clients allow...

Oh, right.... I read "work with" as "work for". My apologies.

 

[Maia007]

We may distinguish between ordinary "workers" and Law Enforcement Officers. The LEO's are sworn officers and function exclusively as policemen. Their gear is similar to that of other policemen. On the belt, ours carry Glocks, two mags, an Asp baton, OC, cuffs, handheld radio, a taser, a tactical flashlight. Body armor is standard. In the vehicle is a laptop computer, sometimes a radar unit and a video cam, protective barrier between the officer and arrestee and various other items depending on the kind of work being done and the remoteness of the assignment. Also commonly found are pump shotguns and, at least in the West, an AR-15.

These men and women don't go around cleaning toilets or preaching the Smokey Bear rap to the tourists....they're cops dealing with criminals on the National Forest.

Most work alone in remote country and backup worthy of the name just isn't part of the picture. Like many cops, they are overworked and underpaid for the risks they take and the impacts of their jobs on their health and families. Occasionally, one is killed in the line of duty. And what's worse, they are often under appreciated by the very public they serve.

A larger 4WD vehicle capable of negotiating difficult roads or off-road travel is also standard issue to LEO's. These are generally SUV's ranging from Cherokees to Tahoes to Expeditions. The officer generally spends his entire shift on patrol in the vehicle. And something on the order of a Ford Focus just isn't going to cut it.

"Ordinary" employees are generally prohibited from carrying firearms. In some areas, such as brown bear country in Southeast Alaska, crews in remote areas will carry a single rifle. When I was there, a .375 H and H. Another example is seed cone work, where a .243 is used to determine if the cones are suitable for harvest before committing resources to harvest.

I have never heard of anyone other than LEO's being authorized to carry handguns since probably the 1940's.

The Park Service is different Agency with perhaps different practises, as is the BLM, as are State Police Game Officers.

 

[Ash]

Of course, Foresters don't clean toilets or do Smoke Bear crap either. They actually manage the forests themselves and their duties do not involve guiding tour groups nor arresting poachers.

Ash

 

[230RN]

Post 21:

Another example is seed cone work, where a .243 is used to determine if the cones are suitable for harvest before committing resources to harvest.

Maia007, I'm at a loss on this one. What do they do, shoot the cone to see how it breaks up or something?

Pardon my ignorance.

 

[Catherine]

Thanks for the input people. I was curious on what they carried up in your neck of the woods.

The person in question in my first/original post was a forest service 'worker/employee' which I classify ALL TAX DOLLAR PAID WORKERS only this one was a police person aka law enforcement aka PEACE OFFICER in the old days.

The person did not work for the state or fish and game department.

There was NO problem with the person in question but I was shocked at how much EQUIPMENT this person had on her body. Most of the types that I see like this (Male or female.) person don't even get out of their A/C or heated vehicles. They just drive around no matter where I have seen them.

I think that ALL of us should be able to carry 'open and concealed' ALL kinds of firearms, tools, equipment on them so I was NOT making a comment about THAT issue. (I am a real freedom/firearm lover who thinks that it should all be 'legal' when it comes to firearms in case someone on this board hasn't figured that out yet about me. Constitution, you know! Grin.)

I know about private foresters too. My husband's family (Forefathers.) was into that many, many years ago up north close to one of the gentlemen on here - the Yaak area. Thanks for your input - Montana man from around the Troy area.

I know that ALL of OUR tax dollars pay for all of this and how the buy/sell deals work when it comes to funding such items too. That is not NEW news to me to the other man on here.

One of our best friends, a retired 'horse' man and rancher, worked as a head Ranger and some other Titles for the forest service from the 1950's and ON. He has told us some wonderful stories and was in the MT and ID area. He did this after graduating from college way back when. He lives in our home area too.

I know that SOME federal forest service 'workers' up in the Alaska area are out in the field for DAYS on end - same as in the lower 48 states.

Thanks again for your input.

Catherine

 

[Scattergun Bob]

Catherine

I did not want to address this thread, I could not figure out your view. I am detecting a large Anti-LEO group here in this forum, and in general it is not worth the fight. I think post # 21? sums up the right stuff.

BLM, Park Service, Forest Service has specific personnel assigned to the policing role, and some general personal with ticket writing authority. I have spent time being backup and being backed up by federal LEO's and find them no different in training, equipment or attitude than any other peace officer. The issue of "in the car" is due to the VAST area of responsibility that each LEO working in the forest is assigned.

As the Badguys expand there "business" into rural areas, parks and forests the need for active, mobile well equipped LE personnel on constant patrol is growing. The BIG problem is that were multiple cops might respond to a specific type of crime in the city, for the most part these folks take on all comers by themselves. It would make sense to have the right tools for any job available. Kind of the old west "one riot, 1 ranger" concept.

So you don't have to, but I will cut these hardworking, fearless folks some extra slack, anytime.

Good Luck & Be Safe