Form 1 suppressor question

[Ryanxia]

Mods: This is not a design question (I know how much you love those).


I was told in another thread that the only information about your suppressor design the ATF needs on a form 1 is the overall length and caliber, is this correct?

Does that mean I can do a form 1 now and say it will be a 7" long .30 caliber suppresor, and whenever I get around to building it I can then decide on whatever material, weight, baffle design, etc. I want at that time?

And I would assume that 7" doesn't have to be exact, I mean you can't know until you start building (not everyone has CAD).

Lastly, since a lot of people at home can't do the tight tolerances manufacturers can, if I say it's a .30 caliber suppressor and the hole ends up being large enough that a 9mm could go through, that would still be OK correct?

Thanks in advance for any info.

 

[yugorpk]

No one is ever going to measure your silencer. Whatever length you put on there just make sure that is the max length it is ever going to be. The size hole doesnt matter either. It just needs to be engraved along with your makers mark. They care more about what is on the form and engraved on the tube than they do about what it looks like inside.

 

[Ryanxia]

That's kind of what I was thinking, just wanted someone's input who had experience. I know the engraving requirements, I've done form 1's just not for a suppressor.

I could have sworn someone said they had to upload a sketch or something when they were e-filing but maybe they just wanted to..

 

[pdsmith505]

When you eFile, the only information needed is caliber and length.

As for how big the bore can be:
Rule of thumb is 0.060 over the caliber to prevent baffle strikes.. For a .30, that would be .360 or a 23/64 (.3594") drill bit. Some people just go with the 3/8 (.375) and call it good.

A 9mm is ~.355". If everything is perfect and nothing ever went wrong, you certainly could fit that through your .360 or .375 hole. But I'd bet dollars to doughnuts you'd end up with a pretty devastating baffle strike. To get enough clearance, you'd need either a "Z" (.4130) or a 27/64 (.4219) bit.

The honest truth is, if you want a can that'll do 9mm and .30, register it as a 9mm and bore it appropriately.

As for length:
The vast majority of "solvent trap" kits out there (since you mentioned not being able to do tight tolerances) are set up to be a specific length with both caps installed. You buy a 7" tube and the tube that comes will actually be more like 6.5-6.75"

If you are machining everything yourself, you no doubt have some knowledge of trignometry. No CAD needed to draw out a sketch of your design with accurate dimensions. If no knowledge of trig, most cans are small enough to be drawn 1:1 on letter sized paper. Break out the ruler and protractor and get to work!

I would recommend that, if your can doesn't end up matching what is on the form, you go ahead and submit a letter notifying the ATF of the discrepancy. From another, not-so-high-road forum:

Here's the situation: I filed my Form 1 and my check has been cashed. Now I'm just waiting for it to go pending. I intend to make a mini or micro suppressor, so I put down 5" OAL. After some more research and design I've decided that 5" might not be feasible given that I want this to use a QD mount. I decided it might be best to amend my Form 1 to make it a little longer. So, I called my examiner, Nikki Dudash. When I spoke to her she told me that for Suppressors on a Form 1 "the overall length isn't a big deal." She said that if this was a short barreled rifle or short barreled shotgun then it would be an issue. She informed me that I had a few options since the difference in length is so minor:

1) Have them return the Form 1 to me and I could create a new one and send it back in with the new information on length;
2) Just leave it as is and not worry about it; or
3) Call them after I have been approved and let them know that the overall length of the item has been changed from 5" to 6". She said however, that there is no need for me to send them any notification that the OAL has changed, but I can do so if I would like to.

I wasn't entirely sure this was true, so I went ahead and spoke with Ted Clutter. He's informed me that of the three options I listed above, I would be best advised to draft a letter to the NFA Branch informing them that overall length of my Form 1 suppressor has changed. He said that this is similar to notification that would be provided when the overall length of a short barreled rifle or short barreled shotgun changes. He said that the goal is to keep the registry as accurate as possible. He said approval for the silencer will not change based upon a change in length, much like a change in length of an approved SBR will not change it's legality. I told him I will send him a letter detailing our conversation and requested that he please provide me with confirmation of the contents of my letter.

 

[Ryanxia]

Thanks pdsmith, I'm actually only asking about the filing portion because if I can send one in now and get around to building it any way I want a year from now, that would be good.

I do have CAD actually I'm just more concerned with addressing the question of being able to file now before 41F and having the flexibility of configuring the suppressor any way I want whenever I get around to building it.

Edit: And the reason I was asking about hole size, is that if I say its for a .30 caliber but later decide I want to also be able to fire my .45-70 through it...

 

[Prince Yamato]

I would err on the side of caution. I'm sure a half-inch either way wouldn't be a big deal, but if you say it's a 6" can and it measures 3" or 10", yeah, I'd submit a correction after the form is approved.

There's reasonable error (1/2 inch) and then there's, pulled a number out of your derriere and put it on the Form 1.

 

[pdsmith505]

Edit: And the reason I was asking about hole size, is that if I say its for a .30 caliber but later decide I want to also be able to fire my .45-70 through it...

IANAL, so my opinion and a dollar might get you cup of coffee, but that would be the kind of blatant discrepancy that might get you in trouble if a BAT-man ever wanted to take a look at your papers and your can at the same time.

60 thou is plenty of wiggle room. 3/8 is a common drill size. Having the can drilled out to 1/2" for a .30 cal round would be hard to explain from a tolerances standpoint.

 

[Ryanxia]

Thanks guys for the input.

Does the "caliber" apply to the baffles or the end cap or both? I would imagaine you can do baffles at 9mm or 10mm and a replaceable end cap with a 7mm size hole? And it would still be ok for your form 1 9mm or 10mm?

And if you file as a Trust, I would think any Trustee can be the one doing the work?

 

[yugorpk]

The caliber designation is a number that you put on the form and engrave on the tube. Its just a declaration to the world that "This is a .30 caliber silencer" The actual diameter of the holes in the baffles or end cap doesnt matter one bit.

 

[Ryanxia]

What you're saying Yugo is what would make sense to me.

Who's to say I can't have a 1/2" hole for my .22LR suppressor? Maybe my machining skills are very poor and I really really don't want a baffle strike?

 

[yugorpk]

Who's to say I can't have a 1/2" hole for my .22LR suppressor?

The point is that no one says that. There is no legal mandate on what your actual bore diameter must be . You need to put something on the form and you need to engrave something on the tube to match what you put on the form. Thats about it. There is no law saying it has to be within however many thousands. You don't need to put any baffles in it at all . An full bore tube with a wipe at the end silences a .22 just fine. Totally legit.

 

[Elkins45]

The point is that no one says that. There is no legal mandate on what your actual bore diameter must be . You need to put something on the form and you need to engrave something on the tube to match what you put on the form. Thats about it. There is no law saying it has to be within however many thousands. You don't need to put any baffles in it at all . An full bore tube with a wipe at the end silences a .22 just fine. Totally legit.

I'm truly not trying to be argumentative but can you point to something from the ATF supporting that opinion? I agree than nobody is likely to ever measure your silencer, but if they do you are likely to be in a world of hurt if they can shove a 45 caliber rod down the bore of your "22 caliber" silencer and not even touch a baffle.

 

[yugorpk]

I'm truly not trying to be argumentative but can you point to something from the ATF supporting that opinion? I agree than nobody is likely to ever measure your silencer, but if they do you are likely to be in a world of hurt if they can shove a 45 caliber rod down the bore of your "22 caliber" silencer and not even touch a baffle.

Point me to something that says you need it to be within XXX thousandths of an inch. You wont find it. For something to be illegal there has to be a law stating that it is illegal. No such law, or even an ATF ruling that I know of and Ive been kicking this stuff around a long time, exists in regards to baffle bore diameter. The tighter the bore the better in general it will operate but a full wide open empty tube with a 1/2" end cap would still be considered a .22 silencer if you listed it as such on a form 1.

 

[Ryanxia]

Point me to something that says you need it to be within XXX thousandths of an inch. You wont find it. For something to be illegal there has to be a law stating that it is illegal. No such law, or even an ATF ruling that I know of and Ive been kicking this stuff around a long time, exists in regards to baffle bore diameter. The tighter the bore the better in general it will operate but a full wide open empty tube with a 1/2" end cap would still be considered a .22 silencer if you listed it as such on a form 1.

I'm thinking the same thing, if anyone knows of an ATF opinion letter on the matter that would be great to bring it up, otherwise I don't believe it's ever officially come up.

And what would even be the penalty of an "out of spec" but otherwise legal suppressor? You've paid your tax stamp.

 

[yugorpk]

You pay your money and file your form, you follow the laws concerning the silencers construction, and there aren't many, you list the silencers caliber on the form and you engrave the tube. Thats about it. No one inspects the thing, reviews the plans or does anything other than send you a stamp showing you paid your $200 excise tax.

 

[Elkins45]

So what would be the practical advantage to labeling a 45 can as a 22? If you know you're going to want to shoot 45's through it then just file for a 45 can and be totally in compliance.

I realize your point about "show me where it isn't legal" is completely valid. Still, I wouldn't want to explain why my "22 caliber" silencer was screwed onto the end of a 45 caliber rifle.

 

[Elkins45]

I would err on the side of caution. I'm sure a half-inch either way wouldn't be a big deal, but if you say it's a 6" can and it measures 3" or 10", yeah, I'd submit a correction after the form is approved.

There's reasonable error (1/2 inch) and then there's, pulled a number out of your derriere and put it on the Form 1.

ATF guidance says it can't be longer.

 

[yugorpk]

So what would be the practical advantage to labeling a 45 can as a 22? If you know you're going to want to shoot 45's through it then just file for a 45 can and be totally in compliance.

I realize your point about "show me where it isn't legal" is completely valid. Still, I wouldn't want to explain why my "22 caliber" silencer was screwed onto the end of a 45 caliber rifle.

I think that as long as the paperwork said its a .22 silencer and is is capable of being used as a .22 silencer I have no idea what you'd get charged with.

 

[pdsmith505]

Thanks guys for the input.

Does the "caliber" apply to the baffles or the end cap or both? I would imagaine you can do baffles at 9mm or 10mm and a replaceable end cap with a 7mm size hole? And it would still be ok for your form 1 9mm or 10mm?

And if you file as a Trust, I would think any Trustee can be the one doing the work?

While there is no set guidance on how big the holes in the baffles can be, I would personally err on the side of not having to explain myself in the unlikely scenario of it being scrutinized. However, there is law and opinion letters stating that you cannot make extra silencer parts (read: end caps).

The terms “firearm silencer” and “firearm muffler” mean any device for silencing,
muffling, or diminishing the report of a portable firearm, including any combination
of parts, designed or redesigned, and intended for use in assembling or fabricating
a firearm silencer or firearm muffler, and any part intended only for use in such
assembly or fabrication.

Combine that with this letter:
http://www.titleii.com/bardwell/atf_letter66.txt

If an individual made one of these parts, even for use as a
replacement part, the individual would be making a silencer. Under
the provisions of the National Firearms Act, any person must apply
for and receive permission to make a silencer and pay the making
tax for each silencer made. This would require the individual
owner to file an ATF Form 1 application for each silencer part to
be made with the payment of $200.00 for each application prior to
making any replacement part.

In regard to the two parts in your cited example, we consider a
baffle to be a silencer, but a wipe, which is usually nothing more
than a rubber or plastic disc with a hole in it, is generally not
considered to be a silencer. Thus an individual owner could
replace a wipe.

But how does SilencerCo (et al.) sell various end caps for cans such as the Harvester without tax stamps? Simple, they've received a variance allowing them to sell such parts as "not a silencer part." I've also seen examples of ridiculous muzzle brakes that consist of a ported threaded tube, with two end caps, making the caps not "intended only for use in" a silencer from big-name manufacturers.

So, how close do you want to tread to the legal line in the one-in-a-million chance that your paperwork is actually scrutinized? If your papered-as .22 can is attached to your .45 that you just used to stop a mugger, do you really want a prosecutor looking into the possibility that you lied on the Form 1? Do you want them finding that extra end cap that you sometimes use on a muzzle brake?

I look at the pros and cons, and see no downside to registering the can as the largest caliber I intend to use it for.

Again, YMMV, and this advice is only intended for use in an academic setting divorced entirely from real-world practice. In the interest of full disclosure, I did NOT stay at a Holiday Inn last night.

 

[pdsmith505]

I've been a member on several forums regarding NFA items since I built my Form 1 can last year. Here is some insight from a manufacturer who regularly replaces baffle stacks regarding significantly over-bore silencers:

IIRC the atf boys frown on changing the registered caliber on cans. However IIRC they are okay with "clearance" and removing damage due to strikes/kisses/etc.

Correct, clearance is one thing but overboring is another. They do have calculators and industry partners on tap to answer questions when needed, and they do ask questions like this when they are doubting the "it extra clearance to prevent baffle strikes".

I think the excuse is hilarious though creative.

Amending the form 4 is out of the question?

You can not legally change the caliber of a silencer once it is made. So no, you can not amend it.

So, in the case of your nominally .22 caliber can on the .45 pistol you used against the mugger, are you prepared to fight the fight to prove that you didn't change the caliber?

 

[Ryanxia]

Thanks for all the replies guys. I think there's some confusion in that I have no intention of using it to "shoot muggers", it's not going on an HD weapon lol

The reason I'm asking is just to find out if I put .22 caliber on my form 1 and a year from now I make the hole a .25" or .30", or if I call it a .30 caliber but I feel like making the hole .45" inches because that's how I want to design mine, is there a law, regulation or ATF opinion letter that says I cannot do that? Obviously if I just go with the larger size that would kind of limit my ability to make it a smaller diameter. Just trying to have maximum flexibility in the future. I have three factory suppressors on their way and I don't know which area/caliber I'll want to focus on after I've done some T&E with them.

Yugo - thanks for sticking with the convo, I know there's like zero chance of this ever actually coming up but I do like to know what the right way is of doing something. People should always know when they need to hide something from sight or not.

 

[yugorpk]

As a form 1 maker you cannot modify your silencer after it is complete. If you build extra clearance in at the beginning you are stuck with it if its too much and sounds like crap. All sorts of ATF letters and FAQ's on that which I am too lazy to look up. If you register it as a .45 silencer you can still shoot .22 through it. If you register it as a 45 silencer you need to be able to run 45 bullets through it. You cant put tighter baffles in it that what it is registered as. No one will ever look at it. This is all on the honor system.

 

[Elkins45]

As a form 1 maker you cannot modify your silencer after it is complete. If you build extra clearance in at the beginning you are stuck with it if its too much and sounds like crap. All sorts of ATF letters and FAQ's on that which I am too lazy to look up. If you register it as a .45 silencer you can still shoot .22 through it. If you register it as a 45 silencer you need to be able to run 45 bullets through it. You cant put tighter baffles in it that what it is registered as. No one will ever look at it. This is all on the honor system.

I 50% agree. Unless you do a horrible job of eliminating the evidence or you post pix of the internals online, no one could ever know if you swapped out a baffle or two. So that's on the honor system. Once you enlarge (or shrink ) a hole those can be measured against what is on the Form 1.

I don't know what the reasonable tolerance is, and we all agree that in law there isn't one, but I'm unwilling to drain my bank account to be the poster child for 22 caliber silencers with .490 bores. Remember, they don't have to convict you, they just have to charge you for the legal fees to start piling up.

I do think we all agree this is a very unlikely scenario. The chances of ATF showing up at my house to measure my silencer are about the same as being selected as Brad Pitt's stand-in. But if you've somehow done something that landed you on their radar it would undoubtedly be added as an additional charge.

I just filed my fourth Form 1 for a silencer. The first was paper but the next three were eforms. They were serial numbered 001, 002, 003, 004. I am waiting on 004 (8", 35 cal) and have built 001 and 003. 002 was approved over a year before 003 but I haven't even started on it. It's a 10" 45 cal and I wanted to see how 003 (10" 30 cal freeze plug design) performed before I decided how to build the 45 can. There's no rule on when you have to finish them, so if you think you might want a 45 can someday my advice is to spend the $200 now before 41F kicks in and then build it at your convenience.

 

[Ryanxia]

There's no rule on when you have to finish them, so if you think you might want a 45 can someday my advice is to spend the $200 now before 41F kicks in and then build it at your convenience.

That's exactly what I'm considering. That's why I'm asking if there is a tolerance requirement. I wouldn't be changing the diameter after the fact, just want to know that when it comes time to build, if I want the diameter larger than is physically required for that caliber bullet to pass through if there's any restrictions on that.

Haven't been able to find anything to point towards there being a limit on that yet.

 

[Elkins45]

I have seen posts on Silencertalk from "industry professionals" suggesting that ATF has guidelines. I have never seen an actual link to them.