Found 4 boxes after being gone 7 months.

[Willie Sutton]

Finally made it back home after a 7 month trip. Glad to be ashore after a long voyage with a few months of flying tossed in for good measure.

Found four boxes waiting for me at the post office, the fruit of Gunbroker...

1: A boxed Uberti Paterson, charcoal blue, and gorgeous. Truthfully I had forgotten even buying this some 6 months ago. Interesting... not likely a shooter but I have wanted one for a while.

2: The USFA Third Model Colt Dragoon. Fully marked with all Colt Patent markings, Hartford markings, etc. Manufactured at the old Colt factory, and with the nicest finish and fit of any Colt Clone I've ever seen. These are rare, and of the highest quality. I'm impressed. I paid 4 figures for it, and after inspection I'm satisfied that I received my moneys worth.

3: A Ruger Old Army, Stainless adjustable sights, "Made in the 200th Year of American Liberty", in box with all literature, etc. Probably shot but I can't tell by inspection. OK, I agree... these are the nicest made shooters. Glad to have it and I'll be enjoying it as soon as it stops snowing here (yes, it's snowing in Wisconsin today).

4: And last, what must be one of the most underappreciated cap and ball revolvers made, a Richland imported ASM 1860 Colt, with full Colt Address barrel markings. This one is a fluted cylinder, adding to a pair of naval scene cylinder ones I had bought previously. The barrel markings are absolutely identical to those on my Second Generation Colt 1860, the finish& case hardening is actually better than the Colt, the grip wood quality and finish is superb, and all in all it's as pretty a revolver as I've ever handled. This matches the same observations on the other two that I have. The arbor length is even right. These are often overlooked, but ought not be. I'd rate it as the best of the Italians, in this particular model. Other Richardson imported items are often not terribly nice. These are gorgeous. Hate to say it, but it's a rival for a Colt Second Gen, and likely uses leftover parts that they were stuck with after the Colt deal ended. The barrel is definately identical.

Photos later, I need to unpack and enjoy my living room for a bit first. Christmas came late and it's time to clean the boxes off of the floor...


Willie

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[mykeal]

If you need any help cleaning up, I'm available (if I get to fondle those guns, that is).

 

[Tommygunn]

Photographs! -- or it didn't happen!!!!!!

​

 

[armedwalleye]

Dear Lord,
When I grow up, can I be Willie Sutton??

If I can't, can I hang with him for a year?

Thank you.


For others reading my prayer, please see also "Criminal Interview Afloat" thread in Strategies.

For those needing pictures, if you can't take Willie at his word, you'd never believe the pictures anyway.

 

[Willie Sutton]

Not only did Christmas come late, darned snow came late too. 1/4 inch just fell, what a way to say "Welcome to Wisconsin"....

Good to see the friendly gang is here, I miss BP shootin' when I'm afloat.

Pics will come, need to figure out a good background. I packed all of the collection away into the safe while I was gone, so as I drag it out again I'll try to shoot the three Richardsons along with the Colt Second Generation for comparison, and toss a few Centaure's out as well.

The Paterson is neat. Archaic, but neat. Let's call it a shadow-box piece.

The Ruger will obviously be a dream to shoot, and is like new, but... <sigh>... how do I say it....it has no soul. It's just too good to have soul. It'll be a great gun to actually go shoot though. I'm convinced.

So between the two favorites, the USFA Dragoon v/s the Richardson: Well... <shucks>... the USFA is obviously VERY well put together, but that Richardson 1860 is sure pretty....

Photos of them later, I promise. Here's a teaser photo with no THR content other than to say it's good to be back home (taken four days ago before I headed here)


Willie

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[Malachi Leviticus Blue]

ASM's can be all over the map, but I agree they can be some of the most under appreciated pieces. The good ones, (and there are plenty) are some of the best. Glad you found one.

 

[Malachi Leviticus Blue]

If for some reason, I could only keep one of my cap and ball revolvers it would be my First "Made in the 200th Year of American Liberty" Stainless Ruger Old Army

 

[Crawdad1]

Stay warm Will, pictures sure would be great but I like to see the results of your comparison shooting and your thoughts on each as a shooter. I do agree 100%, Rugers are nice but they just don't got that soul.


But, that can wait until you settle in, build yourself a fire and have that shot of whiskey to warm you up.

 

[splattergun]

What.. you can't somehow finagle a comment about BP in with a picture of a MiG 15(?)?
And you're flying her?
Green with envy

 

[EljaySL]

I was really surprised at how much I like shooting my Paterson. I thought of it as a novelty but it's in the regular rotation.

 

[WestKentucky]

Umm...how am I first to say this...thanks for your service to your country.

Now show us pictures...smoky pictures with targets getting perforated so we know your not afraid to use that iron you speak of like its fine furniture.

 

[Willie Sutton]

^^ OK, let's try this:

"At least the MiG-15 doesn't use huge black powder blanks to start the engine like my old Dehavilland Venom did"



Really, they use a 2 pound black powder blank to generate gas that spins the starter. The Rolls Royce Avon in the TT-18 Canberra I used to fly started the same way, as did a few of the Hawker Hunters.

Makes the price of a seasons worth of ffG seem cheap!


(full disclosure: The photo is from the net, I couldn't find a photo of my old one on short notice. The black smoke is from the starter turbine exhaust)


"I was really surprised at how much I like shooting my Paterson. I thought of it as a novelty but it's in the regular rotation."

Really! Any hints? I think it would be a fun retro experiment to try it out.


WestKentucky, no thanks needed. I'm a contractor, and my thanks are in my paycheck. And in the smiles of the young military pilots that I train. Truly, I'd do it for free to work with these young guys who are the best our country breeds. It's an honor to be allowed to train them. And all of the iron will get it's time a shootin'. No sense letting good machinery sit unloved.


Willie

 

[J-Bar]

You're a good man Willie, you deserve fun toys.

Here's hoping they all shoot to Point of Aim, and never jam!

Welcome back to dry land.

 

[Tommygunn]

"At least the MiG-15 doesn't use huge black powder blanks to start the engine like my old Dehavilland Venom did"

OK, I thought those old MiG-15s were so primitive they used BP for fuel.

 

[hartcreek]

Willie.....which Patterson....folding or fixed trigger?

 

[Willie Sutton]

"Willie.....which Patterson....folding or fixed trigger?"

Folding trigger, no loading lever. I need to get the tool to load from the arbor. I have another identical model of unknown manufacture and in a bit rougher condition, so with the Uberti as the new shadow box example, I think I'll experiment with the other one a bit. The other one is unmarked except for a very small "Made in Italy", and the maker is unknown to me.


"OK, I thought those old MiG-15s were so primitive they used BP for fuel"

MiG's use dollar bills for fuel... or may as well. 300 miles range burning 400 gallons at $6.00/gallon. Flew the MiG-17 from Lakeland Florida to Edwards AFB in January, took ten stops. Do the math <sigh>..



Willie

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[4v50 Gary]

The lady at my post office would have sent the stuff back (nothing over thirty days unless you put a hold on delivery).

Anyway, that's a good haul on revolvers you got there.

 

[Willie Sutton]

Gary, my post office is small, and they all know me there. The Postmaster knows I'm gone for months. I actually leave several prepaid large envelopes with her and I call every now and then to have my mail tossed into one of them and then mailed to general delivery wherever I'm sitting for a week. She tosses all of the first class stuff in the box and leaves the bulk crap in the post office. Boxes are not forwarded.

It's amazing what handing over the odd frozen Mahi fillet caught in the Tortugas, frozen aboard, and then brought in a cooler filled with dry ice to her as a token of thanks can do to lubricate the social relationships that make the world go round.


Willie

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[elhombreconnonombre]

Howdy from Hays County, Texas Willie
I love my ASM Colt marked Walkers. I'm always prowling LGSs, web auctions, and shows for other models. I wish I could learn the ironclad proof of how these came about. There are plenty of theories. Val Forgett III told me that he has some paperwork in his dads old files where Colt suposedly was going to have Val Jr. import ASMs for the 2nd gens. I have also heard that once Colt saw how good these Colt réplicas were, but with the proof marks requiered by Italian law, Colt management freaked out and nixed the deal, but took Forgetts idea and ran with it, using Imperato to import raw parts supplied by Uberti for finishing by Colt for the C Series. I dont have a copy of Adlers book on the Colt repros to see if he covers this.
I have also wondered why American made arms never had proofed marks as have been required overseas for nearly 300 years.

 

[Willie Sutton]

^ Yeah.. I always assumed that Uberti provided the raw parts for the US Assembled Second Generation Colts, but as I look over the Colt marked ASM's, I am really doubting that and now think that ASM was the supplier. Later on this week I will lay out all three of the Richardson imported ASM Colt marked 1860's and my sole Second generation Colt, also an 1860, and so some very detailed side by side. I'll try to take reasonable photos of what I find. Be interesting to prove once and for all that Second Gen = ASM and Signature Series = Uberti. Just a working theory for now.

Been looking for an ASM Colt marked Walker for a while, I suppose one will turn up.

This area, like the Belgian Centaure's, is an area worth looking at. There are some nice pieces out there that are high quality and still undervalued. The Colt marked ASM 1860's have been running $250 or so, and seem to fully rival second generation Colts in every way.


Willie

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[elhombreconnonombre]

I bought a cased ASM at my LGS for $500 (they saw me coming)
I paid $300 for my other one. It was in a ASM grey cardboard Box...no importer marks. Do you have importer marks on your ASMs? I have noticed the Colt marked ASM Walkers seem to be going up in price on the auction sites

 

[elhombreconnonombre]

My unsubstantiated theory is that ASM had geared up to produce Colt marked ASMs based on a lets call it "letter of intent" between Colt and Val Jr. The deal fell through, leaving either Val Jr. or ASM with unsold Colt marked pistols. Rumor has it that Colt did threaten to sue ASM and they stopped making them AND exporting them to US importers (Richardson and perhaps others?). In any case, there are definitely not many of them out there compared to the many times more numerous Colt 2nd gens. Maybe I should stop taking them to the range and find a space in the safe ....Naaaaaa. ;-)

 

[Palehorseman]

Not only did Christmas come late, darned snow came late too. 1/4 inch just fell, what a way to say "Welcome to Wisconsin"....


.

There is nothing unusual about late season snow. The worst snow storm I can remember was on 1963 Easter Sunday in Chicago ILL

 

[Willie Sutton]

"Do you have importer marks on your ASMs?"

Yes, all three have Richardson Arms markings on the right side of the barrel.

What will be interesting is to compare the Colt markings on the barrel top with the markings on a second gen Colt, to see if they are identical or not. If so, we know who provided parts to Colt. If not, then we can add some data to the Val Forgett story.


Willie

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[Smokin'Joe]

I bought a used CVA Wells Fargo model that has the CVA address on top of the barrel and ASM Black Powder warning on the bottom. The cylinder shows evidence of the "Colts" name having been erased. I can't decipher the date code, maybe someone can help here. I picked up a spare cylinder from Gunbrokers that has the "Colts" name still showing.