Four men rob west Medford store

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This happened in an area where I work regularly, and in a town that doesn't see a lot of random violence, although the pace does seem to be picking up a bit.


http://www.mailtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20091003/NEWS/910030308/1001/NEWS18


Four men rob west Medford store They tie up a clerk and three customers in Creaciones La Muñeca, and escape in bluish-green van

03, 2009

By Anita Burke
Mail Tribune

Four men brazenly robbed an apparel store serving the Hispanic community in west Medford and fled with a trash bag loaded with jewelry after tying up a clerk and three customers.

Medford police said that at about noon Friday the four men — two of whom appeared to be in their 20s and two who looked about 40 — went into Creaciones La Muñeca, a store at 1712 W. Main St. that sells clothing, shoes and jewelry, as well as providing phone cards and international money orders.

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Surveillance video from Creaciones La Muñeca robberySeveral of the men had guns, although witness statements conflict about how many of them were armed, police said. They tied up a woman working at the shop. When three men came into the store as customers, they also were bound, Medford's Deputy Police Chief Tim George said.

A surveillance video released Friday afternoon showed the robbers forcing people to the floor, gathering items and striding from the store.

Medford police said the robbers grabbed an undisclosed amount of jewelry. They left in a bluish-green Ford Aerostar van dating from the mid- to late 1990s that had been parked in front of the store.

Officers and detectives rushed to the shop in a busy neighborhood next to Black Bird Shopping Center when the call reporting the armed robbery came in. Spanish-speaking officers were summoned to interview the victims and witnesses, who were taken to the police station.

George said the department had three bilingual employees on duty during the day shift on Friday to assist with interviewing the people involved and translate their statements quickly.

The clerk and customers told investigators that they hadn't seen the robbers at the store or around the neighborhood before, Medford police Sgt. Kevin Walruff said.

Hugo Gonzales, one of the owners listed on the business records, said no one was hurt in the robbery, but he declined further comment.

Police sought witnesses from outside the store who might have seen the men fleeing. They also hope someone who recognizes the men or their van will step forward with more details.

The first robbery suspect, a man in his 20s, wore dark pants, a white hooded long-sleeved shirt with wide stripes, white shoes and a baseball cap.

The second suspect, an older man estimated to be about 40 with a mustache, wore blue jeans, dark shoes, a white jacket with dark shoulders and sleeves, a striped gray shirt and green baseball cap.

The third suspect, who appeared to be in his 20s, wore a polo-style shirt with light and dark stripes, dark pants, dark shoes and a dark-colored baseball cap with a logo on the front.

The fourth suspect, who appeared to be about 40, wore a white shirt with a set of stripes across the chest, dark pants and white shoes.



So, how do you think you would react if you were a customer in the store at the time the robbery began? The first reaction I had was to comply with their demands, and hope for the best. After all, there were four of them, and most of them were armed. But, when the robbery began, you would have had no idea that they intended to tie people up. What if you were carrying, and they felt your weapon as you were being bound? That could go badly for you.

Also, since the incident took place in an apparel store, it re-ignited a thought I had several weeks ago. How effective would a round rack full of shirts be at stopping handgun bullets? If fired through the center, the bullet may not hit much fabric at all and zip right through. But, if it hit near the outside of the rack, it may have to go through a dozen shirts or more. Has anyone done any ballistics tests through multiple layers of clothing hanging loosely? Just something I was thinking about the other day.
 
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The clothing question is very interesting.

My guess is that it would take a lot of shirts to stop a bullet, but it'd be neat to see some actual testing.
 
I think it would be a good idea to comply right up to where they start tying people up then you would have to act. You never know if they are tying you up to give them a few minutes to get away or to make it easier to kill you.
 
If you are in a covered position, you can get you gun out (also can toss if needed) as soon as you see the situation develop, remember your duty is to protect yourself and not harm the public, sorry BUT that is an important distinction from protecting the public. If you can, get out the back door and call the cops.
 
this is a question that is always a tough one to answer. years ago i was working in a hotel that got robbed, about 10 minutes after the second shift clerk left. the guy that robbed the place used a .22 and told me to go into a closet. i heard him look around for more money before he left. i had a thought once during the robbery of trying to disarm him as he was almost close enough for me to, but i decided not to. had i been armed, i might have been able to draw my weapon when he thought i was in the closet, but again i felt that even then the situation did not warrant drawing a firearm and possibly having a bullet go through a wall and hurt a guest for a mere $160.

i mention this only because you have to fully assess the situation before drawing a weapon. remember it is not just you that you have to worry about. unless a persons life is in danger right then, compliance and studying the criminals for later identification might be the best thing.
 
Medford Oregon? I used to work right on Main Street there. Hot as hades. Too many variables to know what could have been done, if anything. Three armed men is a handful.

Personally I train to begin firing the moment my revolver is roughly on target to eliminate hesitation. I don't think a clothes rack would do much to stop a bullet, though it's good concealment.
 
What if? My thinking is to head toward the back door the moment I am aware of trouble. The lesson is to become aware of the exits before the need for them arises..
 
I agree with Cosmoline, you can't really tell what you would have done because too many variables, cover? outnumbered? But even if you did miss or the shirts diverted your shots, I'm pretty sure it would of attracted attention from the outside public and who knows maybe that could have led to captureing the BG's. Me personally, I would have tried the shot. I mean what's the point of carrying if you do not take along the responsibility of protection oneself and others? Granted I have no wife or kids and pretty much most of my common sense for safety is clouded from a trip to the sandbox, but it's not so much a question of monetary value but armed men threatening people? To me even if their intentions were to allow for their escape, its better to view it at it's worst which to me means, kidnapping, rape of innocents, and execution/murder. Granted there is a high probability that someone innocent or a bystander may be harmed, but I'd rather take the chance when it concerns my life or a woman's (may seem cold hearted) rather than leave it in the hands of some thug robber who may end up being a rapist or sadistic murder. Once a gun is pointed at your person that is the last and final level of aggression, all bets are off. Once again I don't have a wife or child and at most, I may or may not get injured or worse, but I KNOW I couldn't stand the thoughts of what if or I shoulda. Just my $.02
 
Wow, tied up.

They tied up customers and employees. That's pretty hands-on.

When I think of these kinds of "what if" scenarios, there's always a lot of variables at play, many of which you can't ever know from third-hand news stories.

Were they tying them up prior to executing them? Not in this exact case.

Would tying up the people on the scene make it easy to execute them? Heck yeah.

Let's say you were carrying. One of the main 'inflection points' is when you are discovered to be armed by the aggressors. It's a huge turning point that will usually escalate the situation.

At any point in the scenario, the aggressors might see your weapon. If they see your weapon before you have a chance to draw and fire, they are likely (or at least have an opportunity) to take lethal steps to prevent you from drawing and firing.

The longer you are in sight, the more chance there is that the aggressor will see you have a weapon. Nothing is written in stone--there's plenty of inattentive aggressors. Your mileage will vary, and can inform your decision to be Wyatt Earp or not.

If someone is tying you up, they are going to have a very high chance of spotting your weapon. This is where I differ a little from the previous posters who say you need to take action based on the possible outcomes of being bound. I think you need to take action even sooner, long before the handcuffs/zipties/rope come out, because the process of them closing and you being bound will likely "make" you. Once you are made in this situation, you need to be Wyatt or Wild Bill. Very fluid, and not something anyone I know wants to bet on.

In this kind of situation, I think the best response is always to get as far from line of sight as fast as possible. If they can't see you, they might not know you're there. If they do know you're there, they might not think you're a threat. If they think you're a threat, they probably won't advance on you en masse. If they advance on you en masse, you're in a slightly better position, and everyone else has a chance to escape.

Once you're in a position of concealment, then you can make the choice whether to be Wyatt or not. "Seize the initiative".

Note: If you are Wyatt Earp, you can just draw and fire, because you're the fastest gun in the mall.

For the record, I would duck behind the half-off silk blouse racks :D
 
take your shot

This sounds, at first read; as aggressive or reckless, but I would find a position of strategic advantage, if I could, and engage them. Keep the initiative to your advantage.

You have no way of knowing the outcome. Hoping that things will go quietly is uncertain. Full of good intentions to be sure. It may just be that you will be forced to be tied up like the others. You may loose your moment of opportunity, be covered by several of them, so that you must comply, and then completely depend on their mercy. And what if they search you.
And....

If you act first, you have eliminated one of them first off. And set the others into a surprise and catch up disadvantage.

Should they begin shooting the defenseless -present, I would presume they intended to execute them regardless. That is, after your action, you should become their concern, or they will decide to high tail it.

The fact that they tied up people, but none were executed does not mean that they did not intended to murder. Perhaps they were aware of police approach activites by a look out somewhere, ect. and decided to discretely; without alarming gun shots, to quietly go away. You just do not know.
And should the tie up and rob scenario continue susequently, it will only be a matter of time before one of them who has the urge, finds and excuse, and turns it into such a massacre.
 
Really a red herring as NO CCWs to less than legal aliens are issued in Or. Even though the Medford PD seems too PC to issue possible race discriptions! Anyone who has a gun drawn on me gets shot in the face if possible with no thought to my own life, being too old to worry and too angry at the amount of scumbags tolerated these days.
 
I don't think I could trust a group of armed robbers to tie me up and not kill me. Part of protecting my family is making sure I get home alive to put the bread on the table.

No sir. Bad guys want to restrain me I'm not having it.
 
So, how do you think you would react if you were a customer in the store at the time the robbery began? The first reaction I had was to comply with their demands, and hope for the best. After all, there were four of them, and most of them were armed. But, when the robbery began, you would have had no idea that they intended to tie people up.

I made up my mind long ago that this (or being ordered into a back room, proned out and searched, etc.) will be my personal "choke point" at which the gun(s) come out.
 
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