Fragmenting Ammunition

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shephard19

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I recently watched an episode of Lock n' Load, and Lee Ermey tested a Hornady .308 fragmenting round in a M14 I think on a large piece of pork or beef(and earlier ballistic gell) and the results were extremely impressive to me at least the entire hunk of meat seemed to explode in all directions. I was thinking that this would be a good round to use for HD since the terminal ballistics on flesh seemed very impressive and over penetration did not seem to be as much of a problem since it is only supposed to penetrate about 12 inches in flesh. They mentioned that LE uses it to prevent overpenetration in urban areas... I was wondering what you guys thought about its effectivness versus hollowpoint and whether it is legal for non-LEOs to use.
 
110gr Hornady TAP is commonly used for this. Very light bullet, limits overpenetration.

It's perfectly legal to use.

It's not "fragmenting" so I'm not sure if they used the word right in the TV show but the light weight TAP is what many LE departments are using. That or similar loadings.


The show may have been using that "Extreme Shock" crap. I don't know of any agencies using that garbage. It's just plain Goofy
 
I just watched that show...did you see how the FMJ round exploded that gelatin... WOW!

Out of the 3 rounds, it looked like to me that the FMJ was the MOST violent in the wound cavity...both in length and width, I mean, it blew the side of the block of gelatin out!

The fragmentation ammo looked to be Hornady's A-Max bullet...or not, but it didn't explode like the FMJ. It did make a nice tight cavity with little penetration.

There might be something in the saying...'Ball makes em' fall'....

I shot a deer with a Hornady A-Max....one word...NASTY!
Had a hole in the side of that animal you could of set a basketball in!
It was a 8 point, good size, Shot at 170y,(range finder) give or take a foot or so either way.

The only hollow point rifle ammo is going to be target bullets...I suppose it might blow up like the FMJ did.
As I remember, I shot more than a few deer with FMJ in my younger years, and several hogs with it just to see the effects and I can't really remember it being so violent an explosion.

I do not no what you mean by being legal for non LEO's to use?
 
it looked like to me that the FMJ was the MOST violent in the wound cavity

That's the intended design of the FMJ. That's why all military ammo is FMJ.
It is the only round approved by NATO because it is against the Geneva convention "To cause or inflict undue pain and suffering" to the enemy you shoot.
The human body is well suited to the FMJ killing machine because you will more than likely hit a boney structure and tear the enemy to death with sudden dispatch, as you so well noted.
You can kill him, but don't make him suffer during the dying process.

From what I understand, the penetration issue with FMJ is also why they are illegal in many areas for hunting.
If you hit the animal in a fleshy area the bullet will go straight thru, punch a big hole but won't kill the animal causing enormous suffering and not necessarily death. Most game animals are considered Fleshy animals. That's why they are game animals. So we can get their flesh, not thier bones.
 
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I saw that show, and I don't think it's correct to say the FMJ "exploded" What it did was become unstable"tumble" and exit the top of the gel. I have seen this shooting FMJ into wood-I find the bullet backward, sideways, anything but nose first.
 
It's not "fragmenting" so I'm not sure if they used the word right in the TV show but the light weight TAP is what many LE departments are using. That or similar loadings.

R Lee Ermy's show doesn't always get things right. For example, on his show on the history of military shotguns, he incorrectly refers to the Benelli super-90 as being gas-operated. Last time I checked, they used the Benelli Inertia-Recoil system...
 
Ok, just a big warning here, All frangible, fragmented, hollowpoint etc ammo must expand to stop. If there is a defect in the round, (the segmented casing fails to break up, the hollow point fills and doesnt mushroom) the round will continue to overpenetrate. Dont make the mistake of thinking that a 308 round has no chance of penetrating a target and then whats behind it. It might, it might not. you buy the good rounds and hope they stops when they should. But dont for a second think that theres no chance for massive unintentional overpenetration.
 
Texasrifleman said:
The show may have been using that "Extreme Shock" crap. I don't know of any agencies using that garbage. It's just plain Goofy

Wow, sorry to take this a bit off topic, but thanks for that link! I'll agree that I always thought that stuff looked like a joke when I saw it in stores, but the website takes the cake.

That page ought to state in big bold letters: "DESIGNED BY MALL NINJAS, FOR MALL NINJAS!" The pictures are ridiculous on the main page, and then when you click on product information it talks about how it is the "World's Premier Anti-Terrorist Rounds". Gee, I had better call my department up, because clearly they haven't equipped us properly for the modern threats of terrorism!
 
Ok, just a big warning here, All frangible, fragmented, hollowpoint etc ammo must expand to stop. If there is a defect in the round, (the segmented casing fails to break up, the hollow point fills and doesnt mushroom) the round will continue to overpenetrate.

You mean that without expansion, the rounds are eternal enertia rounds that will go on forever?

I thought friction is what caused them to stop.
 
110gr Hornady TAP is commonly used for this. Very light bullet, limits overpenetration.

It's perfectly legal to use.

It's not "fragmenting" so I'm not sure if they used the word right in the TV show but the light weight TAP is what many LE departments are using. That or similar loadings.


Ermy was indeed pulling those "fragmenting" rounds out of a Hornaday TAP box.
 
(the segmented casing fails to break up, the hollow point fills and doesnt mushroom) the round will continue to overpenetrate.
That is handgun JHP's you are talking about.

There is a snowballs chance in hell of a 110 grain TAP (Hornady V-Max varmint bullet) at 3,000+ FPS failing to do exactly what it is supposed to do out of a .308 rifle.

rc
 
fine, nobody wants to believe that a hornady round would ever overpenetrate, you can use it in your house then...

All ammo can have a defect. Any man made product can have a defect.

Life is about minimizing risks. There is not an abundant risk of overpenetration with these rounds, which is why many LE agencies are using them now instead of buckshot.

No ammo on Earth will guarantee there will be no overpenetration.
 
fine, nobody wants to believe that a hornady round would ever overpenetrate, you can use it in your house then...

Yeah, there was a study some years ago that showed all various fragmentation ammo overpenetrated if it did not first try to pass through the simulated human target medium. Some were very good penetrators through cinder blocks and passed through more than one set of walls.

The bottom line is that if you miss your target, the ammo you shoot is almost definitely going to pass through interior walls of your home unless it catches a stud and even then, it still may pass through. If the round isn't capable of passing through a couple or four layers of drywall, it isn't going to do squat do your potential home intruder.
 
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did you see how the FMJ round exploded that gelatin

The FMJ bullet itself did not explode, as I stated, the FMJ bullet exploded the gelatin.

I'll not agree with the FMJ opinion of gearchecker as I am inclined to think that the post of his opinion is entirely backwards.

Soft point, or exposed core, bullets expand if the parameters are within its design spectrum causing more energy transfer than do FMJ bullets given the same parameters and correct conditions.

Ol' R.Lee doesn't say the velocity of the FMJ bullet, that being, the FMJ round may have been smokin' hot, thereby generating more energy and thus the exhibited violent cavity.

It is my belief that a fast FMJ bullet will cause more violence than a slow soft point of the same caliber.

The bullet did not tumble and exit the side of the gelatin block, as its track or channel can be seen continuing towards and out of the rear of the gelatin block, IIRC, could be mistaken though, my apologies if this is the case!

The Hague Convention of 1899, Declaration III, prohibits the use in warfare of bullets that easily expand or flatten in the body. This is often incorrectly believed to be prohibited in the Geneva Conventions, but it significantly predates those conventions, and is in fact a continuance of the St. Petersburg Declaration of 1868, which banned exploding projectiles of less than 400 grams, as well as weapons designed to aggravate injured soldiers or make their death inevitable. NATO members do not use small arms ammunition that is prohibited by the Hague Convention.

Well...at least we can still use 6 pounders throwing grape! hehehehe:D
 
I just re-watched the show. The fragmenting ammunition were Hornady TAP. I tried to zoom in to see any details, but was unable to read the small text on the box.

The FMJ round took a turn upward an exited out the top of the gelatine block. I had to watch that portion several times to see it.
 
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