To all of you who say you support the troops and not the war I say it is like being Catholic and pro-abortion at the same time. It is not possible. The reason that will will lose this war is not the fault of the current administration. Did we do things wrong? Yes, war never goes according to plan. The real reason we will lose, if we do, is because the Democrats and a few Republicans in Congress do not have the stomach for it. When Ted Kennedy and the other Liberal loudmouths started calling this war Bushs Viet Nam he was right. He was right because just like then Congress thinks they should run the war rather than the men on the ground. The media portrays this as a lost cause and the American people are starting to buy it. I will not sit and here profess to know how we could have done it better, although I do think we rushed things when it came to letting the Iraquis run things. War is bloody and the only way we can ever fight a war properly is to turn off the cameras and let soldiers do their jobs. To all of you who have steam coming from their ears right now, I don't care. I love the bumper stickers that say No War for Oil. Oh yeah, I would love to see how they feel in January in the Northeast or any other place that gets cold when they can't get oil to heat their homes because the Islamic countries of the world have decided not to sell oil to the infidels. I guess then we can rely on Hugo Chaves. The other thing that makes me laugh is that I have seen cars with that bumper sticker right next to the one that reads Save ANWAR. I hope they like it fridgid.
From a US Ranger in Irag
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BS. This war isn't winnable. It's not a war. Its an occupation. An occupation isn't winnable with the amount of troops we currently have.
You are right sir. At this point it is not winnable with the amount of troops that we have and it is now an occupation. What you fail to understand is that this was inevitable from the get go when the beurocrats, those in congress, try to run things. The biggest mistake the Bush administration made was to allow the media and the public to believe that this was gonna be short and sweet. By the way, he did tell us early on that it wouldn't be. While it pains me every time we lose a soldier over there, I know that it is part of war. The media was against this from the get go and focused on things that made us look bad like Abu Garev and Guantanamo. Honestly, I didn't think he should have taken us to war right after and actually during Afghanistan because I know the American people, especially the media, do not have the stomach for this kind of thing. I really do believe that if we ever want to win any war ever again, we have to leave the cameras at home. I am not saying that we should commit attrocities but I am saying thatbad things do happen in war and it is not for the faint hearted.
Whoa! Bush made it VERY clear from the beginning that this would be a long, hard, painful operation. The MEDIA expected another Gulf War I and have led this unrealistic expectation.
Here's a question...If all you knew about your city/town/state came from the first 10 minutes of your 10 O'clock news, would you want to live where you live? the Chicago local news scares me to death, but the vast majority of us don't experience shootings/rape/murder/fires on a daily basis. It just happens when 14 million people live in the same place.
In another post, somebody mentioned that the biggest enemy may be our government. it's not. The biggest enemy is the mass media.
Thank god for the internet, youtube, etc. Now we can view the WHOLE story instead of just the 10-30 sec clips the editors spoonfeed us. FREEDOM
Here's a question...If all you knew about your city/town/state came from the first 10 minutes of your 10 O'clock news, would you want to live where you live? the Chicago local news scares me to death, but the vast majority of us don't experience shootings/rape/murder/fires on a daily basis. It just happens when 14 million people live in the same place.
In another post, somebody mentioned that the biggest enemy may be our government. it's not. The biggest enemy is the mass media.
Thank god for the internet, youtube, etc. Now we can view the WHOLE story instead of just the 10-30 sec clips the editors spoonfeed us. FREEDOM
Er... No war funding was ever refused to Bush when the Republicans were in charge of congress. That was 5 years of unrestrained funding and zero restrictions by congress on Bush. Which means Bush had all the resources he could require to win the war.
Republican congress did nothing to impede Bush. So stop trying to blame congress for screwing up the war. Bush, Rumsfield, and the military all have to shoulder some portion of the blame. Seriously the recent administrations (Clinton, Bush) both suck donkey balls. I would like a President to just come out and say "It was our fault. The buck stops here."
It's like some Presidential love-fest. I think even if Bush starts eating live babies on television and having sex with a goat, you will still be able to find people defending him.
It's the new American way, blame somebody else for everything.
So it's a mistake to allow people to believe something? Does the people need permission to believe in things now? Bush should have made congress pass a law saying people who think the war is going to be short and sweet should be charged with a crime and locked away? Your statement makes utterly no sense.
If he told us early on it wouldn't be, then how did the people believe it was going to be short and sweet?
Yes those pesky mass media, chipping away at our civil liberties. Damn them to hell.
I think the biggest enemy is ourselves. A poor education system with bad parents will breed stupid kids. You get what you vote for.
March 19, 2003 - May 6, 2007 and still counting. Good Americans can support the troops and disagree with the reasons, methods, and execution of a war.
Those troops are our sons and daughters.
Those war plans belong to an administration.
The president and Rumsfeld had a plan, it's been a disaster. We are fighting the same terrorists in the same places that we did years ago and now there is a civil war going on as well. What progress has been made in Iraq in 4 years is not enough. There is no end point in sight.
I'm most depressed for the people in Iraq who have been visited by the worst that humanity can offer up. Years of despotism and now this. It's time, ready or not, for Iraq's to take over the fight.
Our men and women in uniform have served bravely and long. Most likely our sons and daughters will be there to about 5 years, that's long enough.
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Respectfully,
Tom
Those troops are our sons and daughters.
Those war plans belong to an administration.
The president and Rumsfeld had a plan, it's been a disaster. We are fighting the same terrorists in the same places that we did years ago and now there is a civil war going on as well. What progress has been made in Iraq in 4 years is not enough. There is no end point in sight.
I'm most depressed for the people in Iraq who have been visited by the worst that humanity can offer up. Years of despotism and now this. It's time, ready or not, for Iraq's to take over the fight.
Our men and women in uniform have served bravely and long. Most likely our sons and daughters will be there to about 5 years, that's long enough.
...........
Respectfully,
Tom
I was reading Philip Caputo's Vietnam memoir last night (A Rumor of War). One of the latter passages has the following exchange between Caputo (a 1LT) and a clerk:
"Sir," said a lance corporal, "if we pulled out now, then all our efforts up to now would have been in vain."
"In other words, because we've already wasted thousands of lives, we should waste a few thousand more," [Caputo] said. "Well, if you really believe that 'not in vain' crap, you should volunteer for a rifle company and go get yourself killed, because you deserve it."
"Sir," said a lance corporal, "if we pulled out now, then all our efforts up to now would have been in vain."
"In other words, because we've already wasted thousands of lives, we should waste a few thousand more," [Caputo] said. "Well, if you really believe that 'not in vain' crap, you should volunteer for a rifle company and go get yourself killed, because you deserve it."
imagine a picture of Bush standing before the "Mission Accomplished" sign here (hotlinking broke down)
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You fail to point out that Iraq is a country of roughly 25 million people. That's the size of a populous state in the US. And dozens to hundreds of people are being murdered in a civil war we created on a daily basis, plus the troops that are being thrust into the middle.
Your hero Bush and his administration are the ones that handicapped our military from day one of the occupation. Of course its a long hard occupation, he created it.
As another poster mentioned, Congress did squat to impede the Bush admin. The blame for us being there, and us failing lies squarely on thier shoulders.
Blaming the media is a joke. How about blaming the terrorists that blow up hundreds of people a week in that country. How about blaming Bush and co's misleading the country into thinking we could do it with such a small force. How can you occupy a country of 25 million people with 120 thousand troops? A country that includes two religious factions that truely hate each other and would do anything to kill each other? We stepped in **** big time.
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My heroes are the ones who wear the uniform and their families.
Jamis,
Dubya isn't my hero. He's not the best guy we've ever had in office. He's gotta be one of the worst statesmen ever to hold the office. He's made a ton of mistakes, (including declaring mission accomplished on that ship). My earlier point is that immediately after 9/11, he did clearly state that the war on terror would be a long hard difficult fight. (Iraq debatable for sure).
I have yet to have any politician I would actually vote FOR on any ballot. Unfortunately, many of us are often voting AGAINST somebody. :banghead:
Without a doubt, the real enemies are the bad guys from the sandbox. But I fear the media also (to a lesser extent) because they control the flow of information to the voting public. Taking THR, I'm all for seeing ALL the information, and formulating my opinions on my own. I just don't want my opinions based on spoonfed, filtered data.
My heroes are the ones who wear the uniform and their families.
Jamis,
Dubya isn't my hero. He's not the best guy we've ever had in office. He's gotta be one of the worst statesmen ever to hold the office. He's made a ton of mistakes, (including declaring mission accomplished on that ship). My earlier point is that immediately after 9/11, he did clearly state that the war on terror would be a long hard difficult fight. (Iraq debatable for sure).
I have yet to have any politician I would actually vote FOR on any ballot. Unfortunately, many of us are often voting AGAINST somebody. :banghead:
Without a doubt, the real enemies are the bad guys from the sandbox. But I fear the media also (to a lesser extent) because they control the flow of information to the voting public. Taking THR, I'm all for seeing ALL the information, and formulating my opinions on my own. I just don't want my opinions based on spoonfed, filtered data.
My heroes are the ones who wear the uniform and their families.
You know, the disheartening thing is that none of us really know how the Iraq front is really progressing. The media is hopelessly biased.
Defeat as the old axiom goes, should never be reinforced. My fear is that if we declare the Iraq front in this war a defeat and retreat, that we will fold all of our tents all over the world and go home. The Democratic party is not even pretending anymore that it wants to fight terrorists in other places, they are meeting with Baathists (National Socialists) in Syria and making Moon eyes at the Iranians two of the largest state sponsors of terrorism in the world.
I honestly believe there only 2 reasons that we have not been attacked on our soil since 9/11 (discounting the occasional rogue muslim shooting spree (SLC, LAX, and The Jewish Center in Seattle) or runover spree (NC and San Fran)). The first is that we are really killing a whole boatload of young Jihadi's in the Middle East, tens of thousands at this point, this has got to be impacting their ability to sustain Ops outside of their region to some degree. The second being that I think they realize that if the blow is not massive enough it will goad us off our asses again and might ultimately doom them.
So if we stop the pressure on their home front, I think we will be empowering them on our home front. It's not like our borders are secure, and I know the multi-culturalists are going to scream at this, but you pick out the 1000 foot soldiers coming across our border in the night over a ten month period with the rest of the horde from the south, good luck.
The only solace I can take at this point, is that when these guys finally get through to us and they will as things currently stand, is that the four cities they are likely to target are in large part the root of the problem. (Los Angeles, Chicago, New York and DC)
Oh and it would help if the President could articulate anything ever. It's sad but funny, even when I agree with him completely by the time he is done mangling every point I find myself just wanting to disagree out of disgust.
Defeat as the old axiom goes, should never be reinforced. My fear is that if we declare the Iraq front in this war a defeat and retreat, that we will fold all of our tents all over the world and go home. The Democratic party is not even pretending anymore that it wants to fight terrorists in other places, they are meeting with Baathists (National Socialists) in Syria and making Moon eyes at the Iranians two of the largest state sponsors of terrorism in the world.
I honestly believe there only 2 reasons that we have not been attacked on our soil since 9/11 (discounting the occasional rogue muslim shooting spree (SLC, LAX, and The Jewish Center in Seattle) or runover spree (NC and San Fran)). The first is that we are really killing a whole boatload of young Jihadi's in the Middle East, tens of thousands at this point, this has got to be impacting their ability to sustain Ops outside of their region to some degree. The second being that I think they realize that if the blow is not massive enough it will goad us off our asses again and might ultimately doom them.
So if we stop the pressure on their home front, I think we will be empowering them on our home front. It's not like our borders are secure, and I know the multi-culturalists are going to scream at this, but you pick out the 1000 foot soldiers coming across our border in the night over a ten month period with the rest of the horde from the south, good luck.
The only solace I can take at this point, is that when these guys finally get through to us and they will as things currently stand, is that the four cities they are likely to target are in large part the root of the problem. (Los Angeles, Chicago, New York and DC)
Oh and it would help if the President could articulate anything ever. It's sad but funny, even when I agree with him completely by the time he is done mangling every point I find myself just wanting to disagree out of disgust.
By the time "they" finish their civil war and get around to their long-anticipated invasion of the US, they will find we have long since been taken over by mexico.
I hear they've already taken over one of the western states and renamed it "New Mexico". And changed the name of LA to "Los Angeles".
I support the troops. I support the war. But I don't support Bush, because he's butchered the war effort and turned it into little more than what UN peacekeepers are capable of.
If we're going to fight a war, let's do it! This occupation isn't helping anyone but the Islamists.
If we're going to fight a war, let's do it! This occupation isn't helping anyone but the Islamists.
I actually don't support the war or the troops. Volunteers, at this point, have had plenty of warning that they'll be be fodder for the economic and religious pissing matches the government sustains. Signing up with that knowledge is just aiding and abetting.
While your sentiment disgusts me, I still applaud you for at least being honest. It's more than can be said for most other "anti war" folks. But, maybe I'm used to my fellow Washingtonians open attitude against the war and this administration, even though I disagree with them. Afterall, we did give the country Cantwell, Murray, and Baghdad Jim.
marksman13
Member
coylh, that is quite distasteful. You have the right to your own opnion, but to bash the soldiers protecting the country you live in is less than admirable. Personally, I don't need or want support from you or your kind. Do all us soldiers a favor though and call on someone else when you need a hand. Despite your beliefs, some of us signed up because we wanted to do something for someone other than ourselves. It is a truly sad nation that can not separate themselves from their political views long enough to realize that their military is all that stands between them and tyranny.
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"I actually don't support the war or the troops. Volunteers, at this point, have had plenty of warning that they'll be be fodder for the economic and religious pissing matches the government sustains. Signing up with that knowledge is just aiding and abetting."
Except for the thousands of soldiers, myself included, forced to fight in iraq under threat of imprisonment even though we left the military years ago.
Or perhaps soldiers who don't support the war, but joined for other reasons, maybe to avoid saddling their parents with enormous college costs.
"I actually don't support the war or the troops. Volunteers, at this point, have had plenty of warning that they'll be be fodder for the economic and religious pissing matches the government sustains. Signing up with that knowledge is just aiding and abetting."
Except for the thousands of soldiers, myself included, forced to fight in iraq under threat of imprisonment even though we left the military years ago.
Or perhaps soldiers who don't support the war, but joined for other reasons, maybe to avoid saddling their parents with enormous college costs.
TheFitz has it right -- a moderator here was called back up after his tour was over. Turns out he's in Afghanistan, but he could just as easily have been sent to Iraq instead.
You've gotta understand -- enlisted get no choice for the most part. In my experience (Oct '91 to Feb '94) I never met anyone who didn't have a recruiter lie to them about something important. My case was different, but I walked in with a near-maxed ASVAB score and said "I'm signing with the Marines this week unless you can make me a better deal, and I want to be Airborne Infantry." He didn't need to lie.
You've gotta understand -- enlisted get no choice for the most part. In my experience (Oct '91 to Feb '94) I never met anyone who didn't have a recruiter lie to them about something important. My case was different, but I walked in with a near-maxed ASVAB score and said "I'm signing with the Marines this week unless you can make me a better deal, and I want to be Airborne Infantry." He didn't need to lie.
To clarify, I didn't claim you are selfish. I said, to paraphrase, that by joining the military you become an enabler of pointless government directed violence.
I also said that our youth really should know better. This is probably what you call bashing, but I don't think it is. I consider it in the same spirit as warning someone not to jaywalk.
For example, if your friend jaywalks, and is hit by a car and killed, you wouldn't think that your friend's death was meaningless unless you yourself successfully crossed the street by jaywalking, would you? This kind of sentiment comes out in the video strongly for me.
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I'm sorry, but we do have insurgents here... they're called Democrats.
The video clip is pretty moving... It's been a while since I've gotten choked up. That clip did it.
God Bless our troops!
I won't comment on that remark...
Every time I hear about 'wasting all our effort spent on Iraq' as justification for throwing good money and men after bad, I wonder what would be different if we required high school graduates to take a course in macroeconomics, especially the part about sunk costs. The idea shows up in a lot of places, too: 'when you find yourself in a hole, the first thing you should do is _stop digging_'.
Oh well, this whole war was a mistake, but we're they're, and we need to assess the best course of action. Every path is a disaster, so we can at best choose our poison.
My vote is to garrison Kurdistan, give refuge to those who fear retribution once we leave, and keep Iraq at arms length for the most part. It'll be a mess, but the big lesson is that this happens every time we go around screwing with sovereign nations for short term gain.
What to do with Iran? Keep them talking and make the old gray men in power fear their young more than they do us. The young Iranians actually seem to like us.
Oh well, this whole war was a mistake, but we're they're, and we need to assess the best course of action. Every path is a disaster, so we can at best choose our poison.
My vote is to garrison Kurdistan, give refuge to those who fear retribution once we leave, and keep Iraq at arms length for the most part. It'll be a mess, but the big lesson is that this happens every time we go around screwing with sovereign nations for short term gain.
What to do with Iran? Keep them talking and make the old gray men in power fear their young more than they do us. The young Iranians actually seem to like us.
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