FTE-what did I do wrong here?

[Steve in Allentown]

Yeah, the bottom bevel sure looks excessive to me.

During the functioning of the pistol the barrel moves up and down. Since the cartridge is in the chamber, the cartridge rim moves up and down against the extractor's tensioning wall.

There is only a single point on the rim that is in contact with the tensioning wall at any time. It's been a long time since high school geometry but I believe this contact point is called the tangent.

As the slide moves rearward under recoil and the barrel links down, the case rim moves down the tensioning wall.

If the bottom bevel is cut too high, this tangent point is lost. There is no longer solid contact between the case rim and the extractor. That's when bad things happen like the extractor losing control of the now empty case.

 

[Steve in Allentown]

One more thing I noticed about that extractor. The bevel on the bottom of the claw is actually supposed to be a compound curve i.e. it curves vertically and horizontally as shown in the drawing at area "F". Your OEM extractor looks like this area only curves vertically. The horizontal curve allows the empty case to more easily rotate up when it contacts the extractor thus enhancing the ejection process.

 

[Steve in Allentown]

Some pics of the Wilson extractor. With this one, how does it look relative to necessary adjustments?

Now that's a good looking extractor.

First, fit the firing pin stop to the extractor. Like Red Cent said, modify the firing pin stop not the slide. If need be, you can modify the extractor a little to help fit the slide stop. A slide stop costs less than an extractor. If the slide stop is wider than its mating groove in the extractor, remove metal from the forward edge of the extractor groove not the rear edge.

Next, check that it's applying necessary pressure against the case rim. If it won't hold a loaded cartridge as you gently shake the slide then you'll have to bend it a little until it will. Then go shoot the pistol. If there are no issues during the shooting, you're finished.

I don't remember if anyone described the "shake test" in a previous post. It's basically this. Remove the slide, slide a loaded round under the extractor, gently shake the slide. If the round stays put, you're good. If you give the slide a good, solid shake, the round should fall out.

While you're in the process of checking the tension observe whether or not the case rim is actually contacting the tensioning wall. Sometimes on some pistols and with some extractors you'll have to slowly file the locating pad down until the tensioning wall contacts the case rim. Remember what I said about deflection if you have to file on the locating pad.

If it were mine, I'd gently bevel the bottom edge of the claw as in "F" in the previous drawing and I'd carefully break the edges of the bevel at the bottom of the tensioning wall. Breaking the edges means a minimum radius rounding. If I were you, I'd use a small piece of 500 grit sandpaper wrapped around somethiing flat like a wooden popsicle stick to get after these edges.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Very nice (effective) technical presentation!!

 

[Steve in Allentown]

If need be, you can modify the extractor a little to help fit the slide stop. If the slide stop is wider than its mating groove in the extractor, remove metal from the forward edge of the extractor groove not the rear edge.

An explanation for this seems appropriate. Most extractors are too long for most pistols.

• The result of a too long extractor can be the nose of the extractor contacting the barrel. This is bad and can eventually break the hook off the extractor.
  
  
• Another result of a too long extractor can be the claw contacting the case bevel. This can negatively affect feeding as well as extraction.
  
  
• Another result of a too long extractor can be a less than optimal space between the the breechface and the inside edge of the claw. The optimal distance is shown in the illustration below. This distance cen be as much as 0.085" but no more.

Since most extractors are too long you can bring the claw closer to the breechface by removing metal from the front edge of the groove into which the firing pin stop fits. The firing pin stop still needs to fit the extractor snugly so you can't remove much from the front edge of the groove but what you can remove may be just enough to eliminate issues on the front end of the extractor.

​

 

[Steve in Allentown]

I've found that measuring the breechface to hook dimension is most easily accomplished by using two pin gages that act as go / no go gages. You can see in the picture the 0.075" minimum and 0.085" maximum pin gages. If the 0.075" will fit between the extractor claw and the breechface and if the 0.085" won't fit, I'm happy.

The reason the pins are black on one end is because I put them in a vise, heated the ends with a butane torch, and then bent the ends 90 degrees. This makes it easier to do do the measuring. You can find these pin gages at MSC.

​

 

[RA40]

Thanks for all the help Steve. My apologies for the delays, I get about one day a week to go to the range so it has been agony in quick turn-around. I attempted to flatten the original extractor surfaces and while ejection was a tiny bit better, there were a couple that still went to the forehead and those cases that got me are manged like the prior. No signs of the brass hitting the port this time.

Fitted the Wilson up. Radiused and beveled the parts as indicated. The flat top where you said don't touch, it was contacting the cases so it took a couple passes with the 1000 grit and it cleared. Fitting of the extractor was mostly at the back end, took off about .002", it is pretty tight but the firing pin stop can be pushed in with some gentle effort. The extractor is not going to move. It sticks out the back end about 1/16" and isn't pretty but that is easily remedied later. Roughly tensioned the extractor and it reads about a 1# on the trigger pull gauge. Will see how the brass ejects tomorrow.

Since it was broken down, installed a C&S Videki trigger and C&S lightweight sear spring. Trigger break prior was 6.5#'s, the new spring brought it to 3.25#'s.

 

[Steve in Allentown]

Fitted the Wilson up. Radiused and beveled the parts as indicated. The flat top where you said don't touch, it was contacting the cases so it took a couple passes with the 1000 grit and it cleared.

I'm glad you ignored my directions on the green edge. It should be sharp not rounded at all. On the other hand, it should be filed flat to clear the case bevel. I took a close look at the pics you posted. Looks like you did a fine job rounding where needed.

Roughly tensioned the extractor and it reads about a 1# on the trigger pull gauge.

Before you head out to the range take a couple of minutes and do the "shake test" just to see where you're at in terms of extractor tension. It'll give you a baseline from which you can work if things go south on the range. At the very least you need to make sure the tensioning wall is in contact with the case rim.

If you're able, take a couple of basic tools to the range with you so you can adjust extractor tension on-the-fly in the interest of time.

You can bend the extractor right up to the point where the rounds won't feed and then unbend it until the rounds feed flawlessly. That should give you pretty much the maximum possible tension consistent with 100% feeding reliability. The more tension, the more consistent the ejection will be.

 

[RA40]

Failed the shake test, came out pretty easily and I figured there will be some fine tuning involved.

Chambered rounds without issue. The first few went directly over my head and landed about 6' behind and to the right. I thought it was going to be good. Asked the range officer to tell me where the brass was flying and amusingly of those two test shots they went to the forehead. :banghead: I turned around and he was smiling at me..."those went to your forehead."

Put another 25 through it to gauge cycling and it continued to feed and eject with minimal issues. The case mouth shows impact as there is a slight flat spot. No mangled ones fortunately. I can't tell on the port where it is hitting because so few were fired to leave an indicator.

Added a bit more tension and to allow the additional curvature to press more, lightly radiused in back of the hook. It is coming in at ~25-28 oz. The trigger gauge isn't that fine so this is a rough estimate where it points at.
Next week will get to see.

Big thanks for posting the diagrams and specs...helped LOTS!!!

 

[Steve in Allentown]

• Failed the shake test, came out pretty easily
• The first few went directly over my head
• "those went to your forehead."

As you now know these are all clear indications that the extractor requires some attention. Cases that smack you in the forehead are actually not being ejected properly because the extractor is losing control of them and they end up getting smacked by the forward edge of the ejection port as the slide comes back. That action bats them straight back.

I can't tell on the port where it is hitting because so few were fired to leave an indicator.

One trick is to paint the inner slide areas around the ejection port with Whiteout typewriter correction fluid before beginning to shoot. Any brass impacts will be clearly visible.

IMPORTANT INFORMATION

You showed on the picture where you had filed the locating pad to increase tension.

This is wrong.

The locating pad controls deflection. You bend the extractor to control tension.

Defelection is how far the extractor moves laterally when a case is inserted under it. You want about 0.010" of deflection.

To measure deflection you need a set of calipers.

A. Measure and record the distance beween the breechface guide blocks.

B. Measure and record the diameter of your case rims.

C. Measure and record the distance from the left guide block to the tensioning wall of the extractor.

Actual Example

I have a Colt 1911 and some Winchester factory ammo laying nearby that I just measured. Here's what I found:

A = .484"
B = .477"

A - B = .007"

.007" + .010" (desired deflection) = .017"

.484" - .017" = .467"

If the measured distance C is greater than .467" then and only then should you file the locating pad a tiny bit, install it and remeasure it. Rinse and repeat the filing, installing, and remeasuring until you achieve the .467".

Every pistol is different and every case rim is different so you must measure yours to get the right distances.

I'll try to post a picture of this later.

 

[RA40]

I get what you are saying, if I comprehend right:

A=.4875"

The ammo varied slightly, averaged +.001:
B=.473"

.4875"-.473" = .0145"
.0145"+ .01"= .024" deflection.

A-D
.4875"-.024"= .4635"

Left block guide wall to extractor wall is:
.0460"

Thanks for clarifying about the pad...good lesson/education. So little was taken off the pad other than to basically polish it up. A well worn A30 Trizact belt was used.

* The case rims across some of the WWB, Magtech and Federal had a spread from .471"-.473" with strays at .474". Most were at .472" and .473".

Additonal:
Will put some correction fluid on the port and see.

 

[Steve in Allentown]

I get what you are saying, if I comprehend right:

You got it.

Those are some mighty small case rim diameters. I think I measured some GECO rims once that were below .470".

 

[RA40]

Big THANKS Steve.

Is .003" a potential issue between the extractor wall and breechface guide block with the current specs?

This makes me wonder if the smaller rim diameters were not the initial set-up from Springfield back in '94. I can't recall any problems with the first 100 rounds which were Remington ball and Hydra-Shok from the mid 90's. The gun has sat for 20 years since then.

Will hand cycle it (firing pin removed) to make sure it feeds and next Wed will see how good a job was done on the extractor.

 

[Steve in Allentown]

Here's what I worked up last night that will, hopefully, present accurate information on how to set the appropriate extractor deflection. I would be very interested in hearing if anyone has a better, easier way to do this.

Below is a drawing showing the basic concept. A couple of measurements, a little math, some carefull filing, and voila an extractor with perfect deflection. All measurements are taken with a set of calipers from under the slide.






The table below shows the actual calculations. The measurements were taken from an early 1980's era Colt Government Model and some Winchester white box 230gr FMJ ammo.






The next table simply shows a fictional set of measurements. The calculations are the same but the results are different. I've set the distance between guide blocks to be .480" and the case rim to be the same. A perfect fit. This is to show that even with a perfect fit some filing is required on the extractor's locating pad to set the desired .010" deflection.






The final table below shows what happens to extractor deflection using ammo with varying case rim diameters. In this example I set the perfect .010" deflection based on a case rim diameter of .473". A smaller diameter rim would push the extractor outward less while a larger diameter rim would push the extractor outward more. Since you don't really want to fit 10 different extractors to one pistol and then swap them as the rim diameters of your ammo change, you're stuck fitting one extractor to a specific rim diameter that hopefully represents the majority of the ammo that you'll encounter.

I don't know the sweet spot for all the ammo out there. SAMMI spec says the case rim diameter is .480" - .010". So, all rims should fall somewhere between .470" and .480" but who knows how the bell curve on the distribution is shaped. Who knows what the mean and median rim diameters are? I haven't encountered any cases that measured .480" so I suspect the midpoint in the rim dimensions is less that .475".






Additional information from 1911Tuner

"Spec case rim diameter is .473 +/- .002 inch. Cases fired and reloaded multiple times tend to "grow" and some can hit .480 after around 10 cycles...but they generally average around .473 inch." The question then is where do you set your specific deflection? I suppose if you tend to shoot mostly reloads and are cheap like me (I'll reload cases until they split), you should set your deflection based on a rim diameter toward the higher end of the scale (.477"). If you shoot only factory ammo then you can set your deflection toward the lower end of the scale (.473"). If you use a mix of factory and reloads, you probably want to set your deflection right in the middle at .475".

The point is there is a range on either side of where you set your deflection in which the pistol should operate just fine. It appears that the range of rim diameters is +/- .002 from the diameter used to set the ideal deflection. In other words,

• If deflection is set using a .473" rim diameter then the pistol should run fine with rims between .471" and .475".
• If deflection is set using a .475" rim diameter then the pistol should run fine with rims between .473" and .477".
• If deflection is set using a .477" rim diameter then the pistol should run fine with rims between .475" and .479".

Personally, I think less deflection is better than more deflection. I believe Jerry Keefer sets his bullseye pistols up with .050" deflection. With that in mind it would seem that best practices would be to set deflection using case rims of .476" which would still give ..007" deflection for case rims of .473" and .012" deflection for case rims of .478". This is all debateable and I do not know the correct answer. A mitigating factor may be the power of the ammo being used. My guess is that the forces created when using +P ammo would dictate more not less extractor deflection while the powder-puff loads could get away with using less deflection. I would be very interested to hear other's opinions and experiences on this subject.

 

[1911Tuner]

Very good information provided by Steve here, and to add just a little to the discussion...

Most extractor deflection issues I've seen recently have been of too much deflection rather than too little...which cause failures to go to or return to battery. I've seen as much as .050 inch in a few, but run to .035-.040 inch on average. As our favorite small town sheriff would say. "That's way yonder too much."

And too often the cure has been that heavy bevel on the bottom of the tensioning wall in the attempt to create a camming surface that lets the case rim open the extractor up gradually instead of having it literally hit a wall...but when that bevel is taken just a little too far, it brings on other problems.

Excessive extractor deflection and failures to go to battery has also probably resulted in more people reaching for the Dremel, often ruining feed ramps than any other single cause. Whenever I see one of Dremel Dan's killer-diller double throwdown ramp'n'throat jobs...excessive extractor deflection is there almost without fail.

When excessive deflection is part of the picture, it can come from one of three places. Either the channel is oversized...drilled on an angle...or the front pad of the extractor is undersized. To compound the channel problem...very often when it's drilled on an angle...the rear of the extractor is too far to the right for the firing pin stop to limit its rotation. When that's in play, there are only two cures. Either weld up the FP stop's slot in the extractor and fit...or get a new slide.

At the other end, you can weld up the front pad and refit, or you can use a safe-side rail file to remove material from the tensioning wall to bet the proper deflection...which also requires shortening the claw from tip to wall to keep it from bottoming out in the extractor groove. I like to see .035-.036 inch for this dimension.

Which brings us to the case itself.

In the past, I've noticed two issues with the Russian .45 Auto cases.
The first is that they're a little on the small side, averaging around .470 inch...with several running as small as .465 or so.

The other one is more serious.

The extractor grooves are too short and the angle forward too abrupt, as shown below. Apparently the Russians copied the original .45 Auto extractor groove geometry circa 1905 instead of the revamped dimensions that came later.

This groove geometry is what led many people to believe that the steel cases not releasing their grip on the chamber wall was responsible for breaking their extractors...but this is the real culprit.

It's interesting to note that, during WW2, the steel-cased ammunition meant for submachine guns had the same groove geometry...which worked well with the extractors in Thompson and M3 "Grease" guns...but not with those in .45 pistols. So, take note.

The WW2-era steel-cased ammunition is still seen at gun shows once in a while. That stuff and the Russian ammunition will break an extractor when the case is slammed backward against the breechface, and the abrupt angle slams into the nose of the extractor.

 

[Steve in Allentown]

The extractor grooves are too short and the angle forward too abrupt, as shown below. Apparently the Russians copied the original .45 Auto extractor groove geometry circa 1905 instead of the revamped dimensions that came later.

This groove geometry is what led many people to believe that the steel cases not releasing their grip on the chamber wall was responsible for breaking their extractors...but this is the real culprit.

Fascinating information! Write the book, Tuner. Write the book. I'll buy a dozen copies.

 

[1911Tuner]

Few people really understand the role that the extractor plays in feed/RTB reliability...and how often excessive deflection shows up, even in some high-end factory and semi customs. I've seen it a couple times in expensive custom guns.

It's usually blamed on excessive tension, but with the proper deflection, the pistol will tolerate quite a bit more tension than is generally advised, and there's no need to cut a heavy bevel on the bottom of the wall. Lightly breaking the corner is about all that's needed.

The picture below shows over twice as much deflection as there should be...and I've seen much worse. This particular pistol was giving intermittent failures to return to battery...roughly once every 10-12 rounds...and the guy gave me a call instead of listening to the ever-present "Polish the feed ramp!" advice.

Luckily, whoever "tuned" the extractor before he bought the gun didn't cut the bevel so far up into the wall that he needed a new one.

It took all of 10 minutes to correct the problem.

 

[Steve in Allentown]

Tuner's extractor modification

1911Tuner, you have written in the past that modifying the outboard tensioning lug making the extractor act more like a spring and delaying the application of full tension against the case rim thus improving feed reliability.

If you could add more detail to this discussion by expounding on your method and perhaps an illustration or two, I know we would all appreciate it.

 

[1911Tuner]

Pretty simple, Steve. I reduced the center outboard lug so I could put a little more "bow" in the extractor. The most important thing is still the deflection, though. I like to see .010-.012 and no more than .015 inch.

 

[Steve in Allentown]

I reduced the center outboard lug so I could put a little more "bow" in the extractor.

Forgive my ignorance but doesn't this just add more tension to the extractor? Wouldn't reducing the outboard lug and adding more bow still cause the lug to be in contact with the tunnel wall?

I don't understand how this makes the extractor act more like a spring.

 

[Lycidas Janwor]

This was about the 4'th round in the mag and following it fed-ejected fine till the slide locked back. Might pull the extractor and see if there is any crud as well. The Winchester WB seemed pretty dirty for 100 rounds. Will do the test next time it goes to the range and see.

Thanks for the input!

Just completely guessing here as I'm not a 1911 guy, but, perhaps, it was just one bad round with a little less powder/charge that created this problem?

 

[1911Tuner]

but doesn't this just add more tension to the extractor? Wouldn't reducing the outboard lug and adding more bow still cause the lug to be in contact with the tunnel wall?

The outboard lug is always in contact with the tunnel wall.
More bow makes it behave...well...like a bow in reverse.

 

[Steve in Allentown]

More bow makes it behave...well...like a bow in reverse.

I'm doing my best to wrap my head around what should be a simple concept. I think I see what's going on. I'll give this a try as an experiment. Obviously too much can be removed from the middle outside lug so I'll start by taking off .001" to see what happens.

 

[RA40]

The first few ejected erratically. Straight up, straight up-forward and then on the bulk ejected 4 o'clock rearward about 6' behind. Among the 100 rounds a handful were forehead hits. After those I could see the front of the ejection port had brass marks. Some of the other odd ejections were hitting the lower side of the port. No FTF or FTE during this session. I feel the tension still could use a bit of tweaking. So far this pistol has about 450 rounds through it.

The 1911 shooter next to me commented to run another 100 through it. He stated his Wilson Bullet Proof extractor took about 250 rounds before ejection became uniform. <shrug>

Additional comments
Drilled an empty case and looped a wire through it to get a better reading on the extractor tension. The factory original extractor tension came in at 2#'s. The new Wilson was 1#. Adjusted both so that they both are reading about 1.75# on the trigger gauge and will test both next week.

 

[1911Tuner]

I'm doing my best to wrap my head around what should be a simple concept.

It's hard to explain with words...easy with FTF demonstration...but
the best I can do is that by reducing the pad and using more bend, the initial resistance from the extractor isn't increased, and gradually increases as it opens to pick up the rim.

I've also experimented with cutting a gentle angle so that the rear of the pad is in contact with the channel wall, and leaves a small clearance at the front...which delays full tension/resistance until the rim pickup forces it against the channel. I've since abandoned that practice, and just focused on setting the deflection.