Full auto spare parts

[kell490]

If one has a tax stamp M-16 and spare parts but also owns semi-auto AR-15's could the ATF prosecute for having those parts and semi-auto AR-15's. Common sense says no since the parts are not installed in the semi auto's but I wonder about that.

 

[AlexanderA]

Not a problem in the situation you describe.

 

[kell490]

Another question Full Auto M-16 can you put the freedom arms belt fed 9mm on it even if your paper work doesn't say belt fed or 9 mm. I always thought didn't really matter the paper work listing the caliber if 90% of the time it was left in the .223 configuration. Was reading some other forum post that said ATF was cracking down on using the lower building other types of firearms like turning it into belt fed gun.

 

[MachIVshooter]

If one has a tax stamp M-16 and spare parts but also owns semi-auto AR-15's could the ATF prosecute for having those parts and semi-auto AR-15's. Common sense says no since the parts are not installed in the semi auto's but I wonder about that.

Internals are just parts; a receiver machined to accept them would be contraband with or without the go fast parts. If you have a registered MG, constructive intent doesn't apply. In other words, not a problem.

Another question Full Auto M-16 can you put the freedom arms belt fed 9mm on it even if your paper work doesn't say belt fed or 9 mm. I always thought didn't really matter the paper work listing the caliber if 90% of the time it was left in the .223 configuration. Was reading some other forum post that said ATF was cracking down on using the lower building other types of firearms like turning it into belt fed gun.

Same as SBR; just make sure you have the parts on hand to assemble the configuration listed on the form 4.

I have never heard of ATF hassling people for using a registered lower or trigger pack with other uppers or host weapons. That's the primary appeal of the M16 and (especially) HK pattern registered trigger packs.

 

[AlexanderA]

Another question Full Auto M-16 can you put the freedom arms belt fed 9mm on it even if your paper work doesn't say belt fed or 9 mm. I always thought didn't really matter the paper work listing the caliber if 90% of the time it was left in the .223 configuration. Was reading some other forum post that said ATF was cracking down on using the lower building other types of firearms like turning it into belt fed gun.

On an M16, the lower receiver is the registrable part of the gun. You can change calibers within reason without changing the core registration. If you change the upper permanently, for example changing caliber or changing barrel length, you should notify the ATF by letter so that they can update the registration record. That's not required, but it streamlines the process in case of a later transfer. Otherwise, the transfer process could be held up until you explained the discrepancy in caliber and/or barrel length.

Altering the registrable part, to make it something else, is a big no-no. Recently, a group of people were convicted of taking transferable MAC 10's (relatively cheap), cutting the parts with the serial numbers off them, and welding these numbers onto M60 MG's (relatively expensive). They then did a series of transfers, changing the gun data slightly each time, so that a MAC 10 ended up as an M60, albeit with the same serial number. This was deemed to be the manufacture of new post-1986 MG's.

The ATF is applying a lot more scrutiny to such things now than it did in the past.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Altering the registrable part, to make it something else, is a big no-no. Recently, a group of people were convicted of taking transferable MAC 10's (relatively cheap), cutting the parts with the serial numbers off them, and welding these numbers onto M60 MG's (relatively expensive). They then did a series of transfers, changing the gun data slightly each time, so that a MAC 10 ended up as an M60, albeit with the same serial number. This was deemed to be the manufacture of new post-1986 MG's.

Which it was.

If you could figure out a way to make the unaltered MAC lower run a belt fed upper, that'd be good to go. But hacking up the registered receiver to make something else entirely is a clear violation.

 

[kell490]

On an M16, the lower receiver is the registrable part of the gun. You can change calibers within reason without changing the core registration. If you change the upper permanently, for example changing caliber or changing barrel length, you should notify the ATF by letter so that they can update the registration record. That's not required, but it streamlines the process in case of a later transfer. Otherwise, the transfer process could be held up until you explained the discrepancy in caliber and/or barrel length.

Altering the registrable part, to make it something else, is a big no-no. Recently, a group of people were convicted of taking transferable MAC 10's (relatively cheap), cutting the parts with the serial numbers off them, and welding these numbers onto M60 MG's (relatively expensive). They then did a series of transfers, changing the gun data slightly each time, so that a MAC 10 ended up as an M60, albeit with the same serial number. This was deemed to be the manufacture of new post-1986 MG's.

The ATF is applying a lot more scrutiny to such things now than it did in the past.

This is the story I guess which concerned me I have owned a registered M-16 type machine gun for 30 years stopped shooting it a number of years ago because the cost of .223 went up so high was looking to buy the freedom arms belt fed upper receiver because I could reload 9mm in a more cost effective way but was wondering if ATF has decided to apply more scrutiny on the description of the NFA weapons. The plan was to just keep it configured in the way of the paper work describes 90% of the time but pop the belt fed upper on when I want to shoot it. I guess I could notify the ATF of the added caliber. I have also moved to a different address in the same city because I wasn't required to update them I had not done that I figured if they ever wanted to find me would not be that difficult for them. If I do decide to update the caliber, and address what form would I do that with?

 

[MachIVshooter]

I guess I could notify the ATF of the added caliber. I have also moved to a different address in the same city because I wasn't required to update them I had not done that I figured if they ever wanted to find me would not be that difficult for them. If I do decide to update the caliber, and address what form would I do that with?

To my knowledge, there is no form to notify of other possible configurations, nor any such requirement. You just need to be able to present the weapon in the registered configuration. Like SBR, you can have a dozen different length and caliber uppers, don't matter as long as you also have the one listed on your form 1 or form 4.

If you change address or "permanently" change the caliber or barrel length configuration, you just send NFA branch a letter with the relevant information. They update their records, but you don't get a new form with a new stamp.

 

[Elkins45]

Which it was.

If you could figure out a way to make the unaltered MAC lower run a belt fed upper, that'd be good to go. But hacking up the registered receiver to make something else entirely is a clear violation.

I remember reading about that.

I have often wondered about some poor guy whose pre-86 M-16 lower cracks down the middle. Could he cut off the serial number and weld it onto an AR lower of the same manufacture, then convert that one to FA? Or is he just screwed?

 

[kell490]

I have always been told you can't cut the SN# and make another one it would have to be tig welded which isn't that difficult reality is it can be fixed if done by someone who knows what they are doing.

 

[MachIVshooter]

I remember reading about that.

I have often wondered about some poor guy whose pre-86 M-16 lower cracks down the middle. Could he cut off the serial number and weld it onto an AR lower of the same manufacture, then convert that one to FA? Or is he just screwed?

He's just screwed.

I'm sure people have converted new, unmarked receivers and rollmarked & serialized them in such instances, but that's not legal.

 

[kell490]

I'm sure who would ever know the ATF doesn't keep pictures of the firearm the whole registration process is really stupid I suppose once the ATF investigates they can compare what you have to another one. I remember a few stories back in the 90's when ATF was out of control raiding people when a transfer came though and they couldn't find it in there poorly kept database costing the collector $10000's in legal fees.

 

[MachIVshooter]

I have always been told you can't cut the SN# and make another one it would have to be tig [sic] welded which isn't that difficult reality is it can be fixed if done by someone who knows what they are doing.

You cannot weld M-16 receivers. 7075 is not a weldable alloy. And TIG is an acronym, means Tungsten Inert Gas.

I'm sure who would ever know the ATF doesn't keep pictures of the firearm the whole registration process is really stupid I suppose once the ATF investigates they can compare what you have to another one. I remember a few stories back in the 90's when ATF was out of control raiding people when a transfer came though and they couldn't find it in there poorly kept database costing the collector $10000's in legal fees.

You do realize the form 4 lists caliber and barrel length, yes?

As for those "stories", they're exactly that.

 

[Sam1911]

I once met one of the principles in a firm called BRP Guns which used to be located near where I lived a few years back. The fellow used our range for some of his testing back in the day. Their specialty was "Stemple" guns (basically the S&W 76 sub gun) which could be reconfigured into all sorts of things. At the time they were doing a brisk business in conversions which would use the Stemple receiver to run top end kits for things like MG-42s. Back then their website showed what seemed like dozens of conversions and the owner told me they did a lot of business with reenactors who wanted functional look-alikes but without the price tag for a real, complete original belt-fed weapon.

Then there was some trouble in paradise and the ATF (from what I can remember) let them know that running an MG-42 off of a sub-gun lower receiver was a bridge too far.

Since then they've moved to GA, it looks like, and these days they still offer conversions but they're all some version of a submachine gun -- very similar to what Lage does with the MAC series.

 

[plodder]

I guess I could notify the ATF of the added caliber. QUOTE]
IANAL, but I would advise against that. I have not often heard of good things coming from notifying the ATF.

 

[medalguy]

If you change calibers permanently, just a letter to BATFE is sufficient. I do recommend doing that for a PERMANENT change. I have a 1919A4 and I can switch the feed to shoot .30-06, .308, or 8mm anytime I wish. It's just a few feed parts to change out and doesn't change the basic gun itself at all.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

I have done a permanent change letter. I've never met another person who has done so. There were special circumstances that caused my build plan to deviate from the Form 1 enough to justify a correction. 3 years later, almost to the date, I received an acknowledgement letter. That was several years ago. No raids, alien abductions, or rectal exams have occurred.

 

[kell490]

According to this website a law firm says any letter sent to the ATF will be returned since 2013 and requested a form 5320.20 to change the address for in-state move. http://johnpierceesq.com/what-do-i-need-to-do-regarding-my-nfa-trust-when-i-move/

 

[jmorris]

You cannot weld M-16 receivers. 7075 is not a weldable alloy.

I have welded 7075 before, not to mention there are a lot of 6061 receivers out there too. If anyone has a transferable receiver they have broken, I’ll take the garbage from you and cover the transfer costs 100%.

 

[MachIVshooter]

I have welded 7075 before, not to mention there are a lot of 6061 receivers out there too. If anyone has a transferable receiver they have broken, I’ll take the garbage from you and cover the transfer costs 100%.

You can stick the pieces together, but there's no mechanical strength to the weld. I can MIG a piece of cast iron to a piece of stainless, too, but it's not gonna hold up to much of anything.

The temper is also ruined from the heat.

I repeat, 7075 is not a weldable alloy. Nor are any of the other high strength, high hardness 7XXX and 2XXX series alloys. 6061 is the strongest weldable aluminum, but again, welding it anneals, basically takes it back to a -0/-F temper in the vicinity of the weld.

No transferable M16 receiver is gonna be 6061. Those are gonna be some of your cheaper billet AR-15 lowers, some of which may have been made into post samples, but those aren't transferable.

 

[pdsmith505]

I'm inclined to agree with Lincoln Electric on the subject:

Most aluminum alloys are weldable, but there are a fair number of them that are not, including 7075 aluminum. The reason 7075 is singled out in this example is that it is one of the highest strength aluminum alloys. When designers and welders look for an aluminum alloy to use, many will start by reviewing a table that lists all of the aluminum alloys and their strengths. But what those newcomers don't realize is that few of the higher strength aluminum alloys are weldable - especially those in the 7000 and 2000 series - and they should not be used.
The one exception to the rule of never using 7075 for welding is in the injection molding industry. This industry will repair dies by welding 7075 - but it should never be used for structural work.

http://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-u...ons/Pages/aluminum-faqs-detail.aspx#question8

 

[jmorris]

I repeat, 7075 is not a weldable alloy.

You can repeat something that is false it but I’ll repeat that I have done it.

Others have too.

http://files.aws.org/wj/supplement/wj0607-179.pdf

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF03266536

That’s ok though, lots of people never even try do do things others say can’t be done.

In any case, pm me if you have a broken one and we can get the paperwork started. Lots of “impossible” things become possible as the dollar value goes up...

 

[MachIVshooter]

You can repeat something that is false it but I’ll repeat that I have done it.

That’s ok though, lots of people never even try do do things others say can’t be done.

Bud, I've put a tungsten electrode to just about every alloy you can think of.

Just because you laid a bead and the fracture is no longer evident doesn't mean the part is repaired. Welding 7XXX series aluminum is mechanically about the same as using epoxies; doable for sealing a crack, but not structurally sound. And once again, the material near the weld in now 7075-0, not -T6, and will suffer stress corrosion cracking.

That's OK, though. Lots of people do things they're advised not to without ever educating themselves on the reasons for that admonishment.

 

[jmorris]

Bud, I've put a tungsten electrode to just about every alloy you can think of....

Lots of people do things they're advised not to without ever educating themselves....

You didn’t read the links did you?

...is mechanically about the same as using epoxies;

That is a valid argument, there are a number of “failures” in aluminum parts that can be cured with methods other than welding or brazing. Devcon is pretty impressive stuff I have seen it hold up even under fairly harsh conditions, like cylinder heads.

I suppose it might be easier if we were outside the hypothetical and were addressing an actual failure. A repair on an out of round pin hole in a 7075 receiver is pretty easy to do. A receiver plasma cut into a number of parts would be much higher on the difficulty scale.

 

[pintler]

Jmorris: I read your laser welding links with interest. I'm interested in your experience laser welding AR receivers.

I'm mostly familiar with laser welding in the context of CNC welding of uniform cross sections of sheet or tube, not freehand welding of forgings with potentially irregular cross sections. Can you give more detail about what parts of 7075 receivers you have welded (where, how thick, how much buildup, etc) and what kind of equipment you are using for that?