Full length resize revolver brass with Lee FCD

[Toprudder]

I just started reloading 44mag, and in deciding which dies to go with, I stumbled upon the Redding dual-ring sizing die. Never heard of it before. What I read about them makes sense to me. Basically, only size the lower end of the brass enough to meet SAAMI specs, but resize the area where the bullet will be seated just a little more, for proper neck tension.

I ended up going with the old standby, Lee 4 die set. I kept thinking about the dual-ring die, though, and then it dawned on me - I have two carbide rings, one in the regular sizing die, and one in the FCD. So, I tried resizing with just the FCD (with the crimp insert removed) and sure enough, it sizes the outside of the brass to about .001" under the max SAAMI spec. As I expected, there was no neck tension to hold a bullet. So then I moved to the regular resizer and resized just the top 1/3 of the case. Good neck tension as usual. It is easy to see where the normal resizing ring stopped, very visible.

But then I get to the real question - is all of this really worth it? Using the dual-ring die is supposed to keep from working the brass as hard, but that would only apply to the lower part of the brass, particularly the brass right about the web, and that leads me to believe the only failure this would help reduce would be case head separation. It seems to me the majority of revolver case failures are split mouths, not case head separations. How often does case head separation occur in revolver brass?

 

[Englishmn]

I load for 44 mag never experienced a head separation in it or any straight wall cartridges I own. I have loosened some primer pockets and had split mouths.

 

[cfullgraf]

It seems to me the majority of revolver case failures are split mouths, not case head separations. How often does case head separation occur in revolver brass?

I'v only started loading 44 Magnum in the last four or five years but have loaded several other straight walled handgun cases including 357 Magnum for decades. I've never remember a case head separating.

Yes, splits in the case mouth are a frequent mode of failure of handgun cases and they are usually due to case mouth expanding and then crimping the mouth into the bullet.

Another frequent mode of failure is a longitudinal split in the body of the case. Resizing the case and then the case expanding in the chamber on firing is the usual cause.

 

[Walkalong]

You don't need to worry about case head separations with revolver brass unless you load to insane levels.

One of our members shared this years ago.

Cases eventually split, or the primer pockets get loose. If they are getting loose after a few firings, your loading hot.

That's a neat idea about using the FCD to size the bottom part, and the regular sizer to complete the sizing of the top part.

Years ago Ross Seyfried experimented with "neck sizing" revolver brass to help it fit the chambers more tightly to see if it improved accuracy. He simply only sized the part of the case that would be holding the bullet. One would have to be a seriously good pistol shot to prove if it helps. The Bullseye crowd just sizes normally.

I seriously doubt it will increase case life significantly, or even much at all. But hey, you could take 100 new cases from the same lot, size and shoot 50 one way, and 50 the other way, and after a few thousand rounds let us know how it works out.

 

[Toprudder]

I seriously doubt it will increase case life significantly, or even much at all. But hey, you could take 100 new cases from the same lot, size and shoot 50 one way, and 50 the other way, and after a few thousand rounds let us know how it works out.

LOL. Yeah, I would have to buy new cases, and then probably shoot a LOT of 44 mag loads before I would see any significant differences.

 

[splattergun]

LOL. Yeah, I would have to buy new cases, and then probably shoot a LOT of 44 mag loads before I would see any significant differences.

Sounds like plenty of motivation to me! Looking forward to your results

 

[murf]

you keep partial sizing those 44 mag cases and eventually you are going to have a cylinder rotation problem. the base of the case will start to bulge. when the bulge get big enough, the round will not seat fully into the chamber and the rim will start to drag on the recoil shield of the gun. happens with 357 mag cases, too.

suggest you fully size those cases and toss em' when the primer pockets get loose, or the mouth splits.

luck,

murf

 

[mdi]

I started reloading 44 Magnum in '89 and have never had a case separation, even when my "Magnumitis" was running full tilt, so I have no experience there. Lucky I guess. I experimented with "neck sizing" my revolver brass but found no increase in case life, function or accuracy (my best loads were in my Dan Wesson launching a 250 gr. SWC over some Unique in plain old F/L sized Federal nickel plated brass. Consistent 2" @ 50' hand held). I made a stop to keep the sizing consistent to about 7/16" of the neck for even neck tension. I would not worry about case life as I've found that cases last a long time when "sane" loads are used and 44 Magnum brass is easy to find.

Walkalong, do you know the loads used in the gun in the pic?

 

[243winxb]

How often does case head separation occur in revolver brass?

Never had a head separation in 44 mag.

In my Marlin 1894, 44 mag , 1 case separated near the middle. Could have been from older brass, and/or loaded hot??

 

[Reeferman]

I several hundred .357 and 44 Federal and Winchester magnum brass that are about to be loaded for the 12th time and so far have zero issues. I suspect I will get many more reloads out of them as those cases get loaded with light 38 and 44 special loads.

 

[Toprudder]

Thanks, all.

Maybe I should try this experiment with my 460 S&W loads instead. I happen to have 100 new Starline cases to work with.

 

[Varminterror]

I like the dual ring dies, not for case life, but for more precise neck tension, and more repeatable positioning of the slug in the chamber bore.

Have you pin-gauged your FCD and Sizing die to be sure they're actually different diameters? Else the "experiment" isn't much of anything at all.

 

[Walkalong]

Maybe I am missing something, but I don't see the use for the dual ring dies for straight walled revolver calibers. All you need is a sizer with a correctly sized insert. The two diameter sizing can be done by partial sizing of the case, although I seriously doubt many people could shoot the difference, and I know I can't.

 

[Toprudder]

Have you pin-gauged your FCD and Sizing die to be sure they're actually different diameters? Else the "experiment" isn't much of anything at all.

No, I have not pin-gauged them, but I have run cases through both of them and measured the diameters - they are different. The FCD sized cases will not hold a jacketed bullet, and are sized about .001" under the SAAMI max dimension. The regular sizing die is considerably smaller, and the result is very visible on the case.

Maybe I am missing something, but I don't see the use for the dual ring dies for straight walled revolver calibers. All you need is a sizer with a correctly sized insert. The two diameter sizing can be done by partial sizing of the case, although I seriously doubt many people could shoot the difference, and I know I can't.

Partial sizing with a normal sizer obviously will not size the case down to the web, while using the FCD will. I have a few cases that took a small amount of effort to extract (from load workups that I shot). Partial sizing, IOW running the normal sizing die down part way on the case, would never fix that. Sizing with the FCD full length took care of that problem.

 

[thomas15]

I'm sure there are some here that know for sure but it seems to me that the mechanical stress placed on the brass is greater when the gun is fired compared to the stress during re-sizing. I know that there are some who report reloading rimmed straight wall handgun brass many many times without the aid of anything made by Lee or Redding. I guess that atomic magnum loads are a science in themselves though. If I were shooting that kind of stuff I would, by my nature of caution, put a reasonable limit on the number of handloads per case, considering it the cost of safely shooting big boy loads.

 

[Walkalong]

I have a few cases that took a small amount of effort to extract (from load workups that I shot). Partial sizing, IOW running the normal sizing die down part way on the case, would never fix that. Sizing with the FCD full length took care of that problem.

Got that part. How does it help accuracy or function. Was it a problem before?

 

[Toprudder]

I'm sure there are some here that know for sure but it seems to me that the mechanical stress placed on the brass is greater when the gun is fired compared to the stress during re-sizing. I know that there are some who report reloading rimmed straight wall handgun brass many many times without the aid of anything made by Lee or Redding. I guess that atomic magnum loads are a science in themselves though. If I were shooting that kind of stuff I would, by my nature of caution, put a reasonable limit on the number of handloads per case, considering it the cost of safely shooting big boy loads.

I agree with that. But I have to believe that the less the brass has to deform during the firing process, the less stress, longer life, and lower chance of failure. So, the less it is reformed during sizing, the less it deforms during firing. This is along the same line of thought of only neck sizing bottleneck cases and not full length sizing every time. Everything I hear about neck-sizing-only is that it increases the life of the brass.

So, what is a reasonable limit? Does that limit change if I alter the process, and by how much? That is what I am curious to find out. The first-hand experiences listed here say that 44mag will split the case mouths, or the primer pockets will get loose. But then there is the photo of case head separations (with 38spl, no less).

There may be other tangible benefits, as mentioned by Varminterror, about gaining accuracy, but I doubt I will be able to notice that much with the type of shooting I normally do.

 

[Toprudder]

Got that part. How does it help accuracy or function. Was it a problem before?

Not a problem before, I'm just getting started, so I don't have any empirical data on that yet.

 

[illinoisburt]

No, I have not pin-gauged them, but I have run cases through both of them and measured the diameters - they are different. The FCD sized cases will not hold a jacketed bullet, and are sized about .001" under the SAAMI max dimension. The regular sizing die is considerably smaller, and the result is very visible on the case.


Partial sizing with a normal sizer obviously will not size the case down to the web, while using the FCD will. I have a few cases that took a small amount of effort to extract (from load workups that I shot). Partial sizing, IOW running the normal sizing die down part way on the case, would never fix that. Sizing with the FCD full length took care of that problem.

The Lee FCD revolver dies are not intended to replace a full length die. If anything, I would be surprised if it did size down enough to gain neck tension. The purpose is supposed to be to iron out/prevent any case bulges that developed during the seating and crimping process. The FCD is a standard crimp die with an extra carbide ring at the bottom.

 

[Walkalong]

Straight walled revolver brass fails with neck splits near the case mouth most of the time, so I am not sure how this will increase case life enough to worry with.

I look forward to the in depth report.

 

[Toprudder]

The Lee FCD revolver dies are not intended to replace a full length die. If anything, I would be surprised if it did size down enough to gain neck tension. The purpose is supposed to be to iron out/prevent any case bulges that developed during the seating and crimping process. The FCD is a standard crimp die with an extra carbide ring at the bottom.

You are correct about the neck tension, the FCD carbide ring will NOT size down enough to hold a bullet, it would be used to size the entire case down to SAAMI max or slightly under, then use the regular sizing on just the top portion of the case to get the neck tension needed. The FCD crimp insert could be backed out, or taken out altogether, for the full-length operation.

The FCD dies are constructed the same for both revolver and semi-auto pistol rounds, and for semi-auto rounds, there is the bulge buster kit that can be used to size semi-auto brass all the way to the rim. I would basically be using the FCD for the revolver brass similar to the way the FCD is used with the bulge buster kit.

 

[Walkalong]

I think that would be a great way to size revolver brass, but I doubt I could make use of any accuracy increase. I'm not that good. But hey, maybe it would make enough difference I could tell, even with my slightly above average shooting. (And probably average for this group)

 

[thomas15]

So, what is a reasonable limit? Does that limit change if I alter the process, and by how much? That is what I am curious to find out. The first-hand experiences listed here say that 44mag will split the case mouths, or the primer pockets will get loose.

Buy 500 pcs of new Starline, the unit cost is about 20 cents each. This is actually less than the cost of the Redding dual ring die. Load them 10 times, your case cost is 2 cents per round. At 20 times it's 1 cent. 1 cent per piece is a reasonable amount to pay so it's by extension a reasonable number of firings assuming that the brass is still in 1 pc. or isn't lost in the weeds. So anywhere between 10 and 20 times but no more than 20 times. That would result in 10,000 pulls of the trigger. At that point you got your money's worth, so time to do an oil change.

 

[Toprudder]

Here are some photos to illustrate what I am talking about.

First off, for the purists, I know it would be better to use a micrometer, but the calipers were quick and easy and good enough to get the point across.


Case head expansion of a fired round.



Case mouth of a fired round.


Case head after sizing with FCD.



Case mouth after sizing with a FCD.

With the FCD, there is no neck tension on .429" bullets. So, I size a short portion at the top of the case with the normal sizing die.

Case mouth after sizing with normal size die. I only sized about 3/8" down.




The more I think about this, the more I think it may not be worth it, at least for 44mag brass. I believe I may see quicker results with my 460 S&W brass, though, and in that situation it might be worth it, with that brass costing what it does compared to 44 mag. It may even be feasible to anneal the case mouths on that brass as well.

 

[Varminterror]

@Toprudder's pictures illustrate a commonly overlooked fact about the 44mag - it's NOT a straightwall case. The taper is incredibly slight, but it's still a tapered case, unlike some other revolver cartridges.

I've annealed revolver case necks for bottleneck handgun cartridges for many years - folks aren't used to treating revolver/pistol brass like rifle brass, so it's pretty uncommon.