Garand - Tune Loads vs Adjustable Gas Block

[badkarmamib]

I have a Remington 700 .30/06 that likes 49gr H4895 behind Hornady 150 SST's. I am looking at getting a Garand, and I know that this load will be too hot for the Garand. I am trying to decide between having two loads for the two rifles, or getting an adjustable gas block and tuning it to allow the Garand to use the same loads. Pros and cons for each? TIA.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

I use the GarandGear ported piston plug and am very happy with it. Ive done several tilt tests after firing hundreds of rounds of commercial hunting ammo and my op-rod has not suffered any detectable damage.

The issue with commercial ammo isnt necessarily how "hot" it is, it has more to do with burn rate and pressure curve. Op-rod damage occurs with slow burning powders where the pressure is still rising as the bullet passes the port.

You will find excellent info as well as real world pressure test data here-

http://www.garandgear.com/

 

[badkarmamib]

@NIGHTLORD40K Thanks! I had been looking at the Schuster, but wasn't sure if the set screw could work loose, venting could cause problems, etc. I had been on GarandGear page before, and spent quite a bit of time looking around, but had not seen that plug. It looks like the perfect solution for what I want to do. Will do a little more research, and see if anything else comes up on this thread that I might be missing, but the GarandGear plug looks like a winner. Thanks again!

 

[1KPerDay]

I personally would build garand specific ammo, not necessarily because of the charge but because of the need for full length sizing and gauging for the Garand that isn't needed (and indeed may be detrimental to accuracy) for the bolt gun.

Garands are rough on brass.

Another issue is the load your Remington shoots well may not shoot worth a dang in your M1.

If you absolutely prioritize one load for all rifles, I would either get an adjustable plug or find a load that's Garand-safe that is acceptably accurate in all your rifles.

And remember, you must FL size and bump the shoulder back at least three thousandths for the Garand. I'd get a Wilson case headspace gauge or similar and check all brass after sizing, every time, and size to the lower step to be safe.

 

[badkarmamib]

I personally would build garand specific ammo, not necessarily because of the charge but because of the need for full length sizing and gauging for the Garand that isn't needed (and indeed may be detrimental to accuracy) for the bolt gun. Bolt gun is for hunting, I FL size already, 1 MOA is good enough for the rifle's purpose.

Garands are rough on brass. Did not consider this, though it makes sense, being a semi.

Another issue is the load your Remington shoots well may not shoot worth a dang in your M1. Garand will be a CMP SG, so I am not really expecting much in the way of accuracy.

If you absolutely prioritize one load for all rifles, I would either get an adjustable plug or find a load that's Garand-safe that is acceptably accurate in all your rifles. I agree, but the bolt gun is used for hunting, the Garand will be a range toy, so bolt gun is the priority load, IF I keep them the same.

And remember, you must FL size and bump the shoulder back at least three thousandths for the Garand. I'd get a Wilson case headspace gauge or similar and check all brass after sizing, every time, and size to the lower step to be safe. Good advise, thanks!

 

[wombat13]

I have a Schuster plug for mine and I think it would be better for your application. The advantage of the Garand Gear plug is they claim it works with any factory ammo. I write "they claim" because I've never used one so I can't confirm. But, while it may work with any ammo, that doesn't mean it is optimal with any ammo. The advantage of the Schuster is that you can adjust it so it operates perfectly with any ammo you choose. The Schuster will be better for your rifle with any particular ammo, but would be a pain if you are frequently changing the ammo and have to adjust it often.

With the Schuster you start with it wide open which makes your Garand a bolt action because the action will not automatically cycle. You then close it off a little with each shot until it reliably cycles your action. This way you know your rifle is not getting excessive pressure. Since you're looking to use your Garand with a specific load, the Schuster would be better.

 

[mustanger98]

This ported plug... I've looked them... Garand Gear and Schuster both make them. Rather then venting excess gas, it just starts the cycle with a higher volume, which reduces the pressure to the op rod. On their web site, Garand Gear shows a graphic comparing the standard pressures of two flavors of M2 ball vs a commercial load by Fiocchi fired with the plug.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

@NIGHTLORD40K Thanks! I had been looking at the Schuster, but wasn't sure if the set screw could work loose, venting could cause problems, etc. I had been on GarandGear page before, and spent quite a bit of time looking around, but had not seen that plug. It looks like the perfect solution for what I want to do. Will do a little more research, and see if anything else comes up on this thread that I might be missing, but the GarandGear plug looks like a winner. Thanks again!

No problem. ☺
I do use blue loctite when I reinstall the plug as it can loosen with firing.

My primary concern was avoiding op-rod damage with commercial ammo, not neccessarily match grade accuracy. As others have said, an adjustable plug combined with handloads may yield better groups.

I just need my Garand to be reliable and shoot "minute-of-enemy," which it is and does.

 

[mustanger98]

I have a Remington 700 .30/06 that likes 49gr H4895 behind Hornady 150 SST's. I am looking at getting a Garand, and I know that this load will be too hot for the Garand. I am trying to decide between having two loads for the two rifles, or getting an adjustable gas block and tuning it to allow the Garand to use the same loads. Pros and cons for each? TIA.

Following up on my previous post (#7), I was about to address the Schuster adjustable gas plug. I recently acquired one, but haven't yet tested it between M2 ball and my handload. My understanding is like wombat13 said (post #6)... open it up, then adjust down as you shoot until your rifle cycles properly. I read from guys who say these gas plugs make their rifles shoot/function softer so they're not beating themselves up or putting extra wear and tear on their rifles. Also, they say this changes the barrel harmonics, so you can tune it for better accuracy.

Now, to your handload... While I've loaded IMR 4895, I've lost count of how many guys post nearly the same as yours. I recall seeing it in the range of published data too. If you get the Garand and the adjustable Schuster plug, I'd say see how it does with your load.

Here's another thing... are you full-length resizing or using a neck sizer die for your Remington? Load for a gas gun and you'll need to full-length resize. So even though you may use the same recipe between the M700 and the Garand, you'll need two different batches depending on which resizing die you used.

 

[badkarmamib]

are you full-length resizing or using a neck sizer die for your Remington?

I full-length size, since my father and I throw all of our brass in the same bucket. I size it all, so it will chamber in any of our rifles, and just worry about OAL, charge, and bullet for each rifle. We don't have "target" rifles, we have hunting rifles. I am thrilled to go from 3MOA with factory to sub-MOA with my reloads. I am not good enough to shoot one-holes, no matter how accurate my loads are , so full-length works for me.

 

[hps1]

47 gr. H4895 behind 150 gr. SMK duplicates ballistics of M2 ball ammo (standard issue for the M1 Garand). Same load behind 168 gr. SMK duplicates M72 Match ammo. 4895 produces correct range of port pressure for the Garand and is excellent powder choice for that rifle. This was a standard load used by many, if not most service rifle match shooters w/garands in the 60's thru 80's. Slow powders and heavy bullets will damage op rods due to high port pressure.

Regards,
hps

 

[hps1]

I full-length size, since my father and I throw all of our brass in the same bucket. I size it all, so it will chamber in any of our rifles, and just worry about OAL, charge, and bullet for each rifle.

A word of caution when loading for your Garand. The firing pin on a garand will "peck" the primer every time a round is chambered. While rare, a tight round, dirty chamber, high or sensitive primer......anything that could cause the round to fail to chamber fully can cause a "slam fire". If the bolt is not in battery at the time, it can be very dangerous, causing severe damage to the rifle and possibly injuring the shooter.

Having spent a great deal of time on ranges shooting competition w/M1 & M14/M1A over the years, I have personally witnessed two slam fires.

One such event involved a close friend who is a very experienced reloader and high power competitor who wrecked his match grade M1 Garand using the same handloads he has used for years when the rifle slam fired out of battery. Bent his op-rod, blew extractor/ejector out of bolt and rounded the receiver locking lug recess about 1/8" showing the bolt lug had barely entered the recess and was not in battery at the time the slamfire occured. He received a cut on the forehead and his trigger control suffered serious damage for a while, but fortunately, the rifle, and his shooting ability were not beyond repair.

Upon examination of the remaining lot of ammo, we found that the rounds were not fully chambering in his snug (match) chamber. He had loaded this batch of ammo using the same sizer die setting as always and other lots measured OK. The problem stemmed from the fact that this particular lot of brass had been fired quite a few times and had work hardened. His dies had been set to give proper headspace with once fired brass. The harder brass springs back more than softer brass after sizing, thus the hardened brass were too large to chamber completely in his rifle.

When loading for more than one rifle and one is a garand, be sure all rounds loaded will chamber fully in the garand and be aware that the more times a case has been cycled, the harder it becomes and will spring back more after sizing than will a once fired case. I always keep all my garand brass in lots according to the number of firings on each lot.

Regards,
hps

 

[mustanger98]

I full-length size, since my father and I throw all of our brass in the same bucket. I size it all, so it will chamber in any of our rifles, and just worry about OAL, charge, and bullet for each rifle. We don't have "target" rifles, we have hunting rifles. I am thrilled to go from 3MOA with factory to sub-MOA with my reloads. I am not good enough to shoot one-holes, no matter how accurate my loads are , so full-length works for me.

Shrinking your groups from 3MOA to sub-MOA sounds like a big improvement.

Okay, considering how you resize everything more or less in bulk along with post #12, you should probably start with a batch of fresh brass, label the container, and keep them separate from what y'all run in your crankbolts. I recall somebody saying something about setting the shoulder back .003"(?)... hps1 may have just explained that one too.

 

[Dibbs]

I've got a Schuster Valve. They work, but tend to work loose, after a few clips. While the Garand will shoot
pretty much any 30.06 load configuration, I never derived any benefit from shooting non Garand spec ammo.
The point is, I prefer using 150 grain Garand loads. This opinion, and $2.79, will get you a large cup of coffee, at many establishments.

 

[25-5]

I have a Remington 700 30-06 that I reload for. To start with I neck size for bolts.
Garand is full size. I used the Shuster plug to use up some hot ammo in the Garand. It works well.
Same for the M1A. I like shooting loads in battle rifles close to historical so the adjustable is off now.
I don't shoot the 700 much, but I have a M1903A3 that i shoot a lot along with the Garand. I keep the brass separate and load for different pressures. The Hornady manual 9th and 10th Editions have load info for the M1 Garand.
Note: Big difference between neck sizing and full sizing '06 brass. A lot easier.