amd6547
Member
My father, who fought in the hedgerows at the battle of Falaise Gap, would disagree with the statement that the Germans he faced were a pitiful bunch.
German rifleman
- Thread starter kestak
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I would imagine anyone who fought the Germans in France in 1944 would feel the same way. Germany used the same process to build up their army in the 1930s as they used during the war. A small core of highly experienced veterans was used to train recruits, and Germany made an effort to keep men who had fought together in the same units throughout the war. A large number of seasoned veterans were also still fighting during and after the Normandy landings, and this greatly stiffened the recruits. However, Germany was so desperate for manpower at the time that there were battalions made up of men who should have been invalided out of the Wermacht for wounds or illnesses, and units consisting of conscripts who would never have been accepted into the military for various reasons in the early years of the war. Probably the sole exception to this was the SS Divisions, which were fanatical fighters, in part due to persistent rumors the the Americans were shooting any and all SS troops they captured, and this in fact was more common than many modern historians will say.
Greetings,
One of my good friend had his grand daddy serving in a SS division. I can't recall the number and tried to reach him in the last few days but could not. My friend told me his grand daddy was one of 600 only survivors of all time of that division that saw combat in Russia and West Coast. We talked extensively about what his grand daddy told him and he even sent me a picture of one old uniform he has. One thing he said was that they wanted to be captured only by Brits, Canadians or Americans. He said also when he got captured, they were very well treated. The bad treatments began only when they were forced to work after the war.
In 1999, I met an old French man in Quebec Province. He was the uncle of a girl I went out a few weeks. As of today, I still consider that encounter one of the most troubling of my life. That guy showed me a few original pictures and others and the sames in 4-5 History books he had. It was him when he was young: Standing by an American soldier, sitting on an America tank, posing with other french men with weapons in their arms, etc. He was part of the french maquis (guerilla) from the beginning of the war to its end.
But that is not what was troubling. What was troubling was a couple stories:
- He said that when they were fighting and using flame throwers, they would let burn any French SS and not finish him with a bullet. Or every French SS captured would have his throat "slowly" slit while the other captured would watch and knew their turn will come.
-They would go and kill EVERYONE in a collaborator house, even the farm animals, dogs, cat and once a canari in a cage.
When he said that, it was the tone and the lack of regret and sense of good accomplishment that made me realize he had no nightmares about it.
He said also the Americans were cocky but could afford it with all the equipment and supplies they had. He said the most savages fighters (he said in French "Ils en voulaient encore et encore" , that means they wanted more and more) were the pols. They made sure they would take in the minimum prisoners.
It is that encounter that made me want to read about WWII. I suscribed to the very expensive magazine (for a Canadian in that time) World War II and still receive it.
I wish I would have talked to him more, but oh well....she was not for me...
One of my good friend had his grand daddy serving in a SS division. I can't recall the number and tried to reach him in the last few days but could not. My friend told me his grand daddy was one of 600 only survivors of all time of that division that saw combat in Russia and West Coast. We talked extensively about what his grand daddy told him and he even sent me a picture of one old uniform he has. One thing he said was that they wanted to be captured only by Brits, Canadians or Americans. He said also when he got captured, they were very well treated. The bad treatments began only when they were forced to work after the war.
In 1999, I met an old French man in Quebec Province. He was the uncle of a girl I went out a few weeks. As of today, I still consider that encounter one of the most troubling of my life. That guy showed me a few original pictures and others and the sames in 4-5 History books he had. It was him when he was young: Standing by an American soldier, sitting on an America tank, posing with other french men with weapons in their arms, etc. He was part of the french maquis (guerilla) from the beginning of the war to its end.
But that is not what was troubling. What was troubling was a couple stories:
- He said that when they were fighting and using flame throwers, they would let burn any French SS and not finish him with a bullet. Or every French SS captured would have his throat "slowly" slit while the other captured would watch and knew their turn will come.
-They would go and kill EVERYONE in a collaborator house, even the farm animals, dogs, cat and once a canari in a cage.
When he said that, it was the tone and the lack of regret and sense of good accomplishment that made me realize he had no nightmares about it.
He said also the Americans were cocky but could afford it with all the equipment and supplies they had. He said the most savages fighters (he said in French "Ils en voulaient encore et encore" , that means they wanted more and more) were the pols. They made sure they would take in the minimum prisoners.
It is that encounter that made me want to read about WWII. I suscribed to the very expensive magazine (for a Canadian in that time) World War II and still receive it.
I wish I would have talked to him more, but oh well....she was not for me...
Greenmachin3
Member
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My understanding is that most of Germany's seasoned soldiers were fighting on the eastern front. If you look at the sheer manpower and resources committed, WWII was more or less a war between Germany and Russia. The western front, in terms of size, men, resources, casualties, was quite small compared to the eastern. Operation Barbarossa was the single largest military campaign in human history and operation Citadel (Kursk) was the largest single land AND air battle in history. The casualties from that single battle rivals those from the entire Italian campaign.
It never would have finished the way it did without the Allies help, but I can't imagine the cost of the war to the US and British Commonwealth if the Russians weren't involved.
From my understanding of history, the Germans, for the most part, were well trained and equipped until the beginning of 1944. That's when their supplies (due to allied bombing) and the quality of the soldiers started to deteriorate. Not to say there weren't seasoned guys, but that's when I think new recruits probably weren't as well trained or equipped as new recruits a year or two earlier.
It never would have finished the way it did without the Allies help, but I can't imagine the cost of the war to the US and British Commonwealth if the Russians weren't involved.
From my understanding of history, the Germans, for the most part, were well trained and equipped until the beginning of 1944. That's when their supplies (due to allied bombing) and the quality of the soldiers started to deteriorate. Not to say there weren't seasoned guys, but that's when I think new recruits probably weren't as well trained or equipped as new recruits a year or two earlier.
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Gunnerboy
Member
Its just odd how atrocities that werent much worse than Germanys that were done by the allies are overlooked yet we still have these poor 90year old feeble men being tried for things that werent illegal at the time or that they had no choice in doing, odd how our world thinks.
R.W.Dale
Member
It all depends on who wins.
Make no mistake about it. The scale may have been smaller but our war with Japan in the Pacific was no less violent and ugly as anything on the eastern front.
Being taken prisoner on either side was simply not an option.
Make no mistake about it. The scale may have been smaller but our war with Japan in the Pacific was no less violent and ugly as anything on the eastern front.
Being taken prisoner on either side was simply not an option.
The victors judge the vanquished and write the history books. War is in and of itself an atrocity. As an American I am not proud of what happened but there were more than enough atrocities committed by all nations involved. Compared to the Russians we were angels of mercy and a lot of German soldiers, whether regular army or SS, went out of their way to surrender to us or the other Western Allies rather than the Russians.
Still, there are a number of documented cases of American troops shooting captured SS on the spot. The cases which were reported makes me believe there were probably dozens, if not hundreds of cases which were never reported at all. I am sure the Poles were much less likely to leave ANY captured German alive. The Germans considered the French Maquis to be terrorists and usually executed them if they caught them, just as they did most of the partisans they captured in other countries.
There are a lot of documented cases of SS fighting to the death in absolutely hopeless situations rather than being captured, and there are also cases of high-ranking SS who feared they were soon to be captured changing into regular Wermacht uniforms. A lot of these men were captured but survived the war and captivity in the West, though they were usually found out once they arrived at a POW camp. Once they reached a camp they were at least unlikely to be shot out of hand, and it was this they were banking on.
Still, there are a number of documented cases of American troops shooting captured SS on the spot. The cases which were reported makes me believe there were probably dozens, if not hundreds of cases which were never reported at all. I am sure the Poles were much less likely to leave ANY captured German alive. The Germans considered the French Maquis to be terrorists and usually executed them if they caught them, just as they did most of the partisans they captured in other countries.
There are a lot of documented cases of SS fighting to the death in absolutely hopeless situations rather than being captured, and there are also cases of high-ranking SS who feared they were soon to be captured changing into regular Wermacht uniforms. A lot of these men were captured but survived the war and captivity in the West, though they were usually found out once they arrived at a POW camp. Once they reached a camp they were at least unlikely to be shot out of hand, and it was this they were banking on.
max popenker
Member
Maybe it was because Germans certainly were NOT angels of mercy when they invaded Russia?
After hearing some stories of the Siege of Leningrad from my late Granny who lived and almosd died there, I'm not surprised that Germans had all rights to be afraid of revenge.
German policies in the East were inexcusable. This was strictly Hitler's doing. He ignored the repeated advice of his staff to take a different approach to the conquered territories. Many of his staff tried to convince him to allow the people of the conquered countries to set up semiautonomous governments of their own, with German oversight, but Hitler insisted that the untermensch, as he referred to them, be treated with the greatest harshness. This guaranteed that the war on the Eastern Front would be among the most barbaric in modern times, and made enemies of people who had initially welcomed the Germans as liberators from Stalin's rule.
amd6547
Member
Enough revisionist history. The Germans deserved everything they got.
Sorry you feel that some of this thread is revisionist. I study military history, and World War II in particular, as a hobby and my postings are all based on multiple sources from several of the combatant nations involved in the war in Europe and Russia. I have a small library of approximately 200 military history books and I wouldn't post anything here that I haven't found documented in at least 4 or 5 different sources. Unfortunately I do not have my books with me right now so I am having to go strictly on memory and cannot name specific sources for my information. Most of my books were published no later than the early 1960s.
I'm glad the mods let this thread go as long as they have since we have strayed pretty far from the original question of the quality of the German rifleman, and I've greatly enjoyed reading what others have to say as well as adding my own comments.
Hangingrock
Member
It is seldom mentioned if ever in 1939 that Germany and Russia split Poland between them. Yes they had an agreement but that was quickly forgotten when Germany invaded Russia.
When that event transpired Great Britain, Commonwealth Nations and others like the Free French allied with Russia. When the United States entered the war we were part of the allied nations quickly forgetting what Russia had done to Poland.
I wonder if Stalin used in part WW2 to mask the numbers of people he ordered terminated and just lumped those numbers into casualties suffered in WW2.
With out Germany fighting a two front war the Russians would not have prevailed. Germany sacrificed air superiority in the East to protect their cities from the massive air bombardment campaigns of the British and United States bomber commands. Manpower in equipment lost in other theaters of operation North Africa and Italy along with manpower held in reserve in Western Europe were significant factors.
When that event transpired Great Britain, Commonwealth Nations and others like the Free French allied with Russia. When the United States entered the war we were part of the allied nations quickly forgetting what Russia had done to Poland.
I wonder if Stalin used in part WW2 to mask the numbers of people he ordered terminated and just lumped those numbers into casualties suffered in WW2.
With out Germany fighting a two front war the Russians would not have prevailed. Germany sacrificed air superiority in the East to protect their cities from the massive air bombardment campaigns of the British and United States bomber commands. Manpower in equipment lost in other theaters of operation North Africa and Italy along with manpower held in reserve in Western Europe were significant factors.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Like all good things...
EDIT: Someone asked why, so here is the answer.
EDIT: Someone asked why, so here is the answer.
Me said:
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