German sidearms in WWII- Who got what?
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Trunk Monkey
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For what it's worth this apparently actually happened too.
Trunk Monkey
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Would that have been a 380?
I went back and looked at the interview and he didn't mention what type of gun it was. Maybe it was in the book somewhere but I seem to remember that he said it was a 380
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jar
Contributing Member
Possibly 9mm Kurz.
No PP or PPK 9mm Kurz pistols until after the war IIRC.
IIRC .32 ACP and even 6.35 Walther PPK’s were more common, but there were some .380’s around at the time.
Trunk Monkey
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jar
Contributing Member
But the PPK was not made in 380 until after the war as I pointed out above.
If it was a PP or PPK it would have been in 32acp/7.65.
Monac
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There is a video on YouTube about the guns (plural) involved in Hitler's suicide. The channel is called "Mark Felton Productions". The maker says Hitler had both a PPK in 25 caliber, which he carried regularly, and a PP in 32 caliber, which he carried when he wore a uniform outdoors. He had both of them with him when he and Eva Braun committed suicide. Eva took poison, Hitler shot himself. No who was present tried to determine which gun was used. Someone who left the bunker later buried them in the ruins of Berlin. He told post-war interrogators approximately where, but they have never been found.
TikkaShooter
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I have a WWII P38 bring back..
A German police turn in P1 and a couple of Browning Hi/high Powers. My dislike of all of them; is they prefer ball ammo.
A German police turn in P1 and a couple of Browning Hi/high Powers. My dislike of all of them; is they prefer ball ammo.
jar
Contributing Member
Not sure that supports the 380 being available before or during the war. The 25acp does seem likely though.
dfariswheel
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The pistol that was surrendered to Winters was a Walther PP model. I'm not sure about the caliber, but it was probably a 7.65/.32ACP.
Walther sold the PPK and PP in .9mm Kurz/.380ACP before the war and a number were imported into the US by Stoeger.
These could be bought in many gun stores in Germany by foreigners.
A little known piece of history is that the SS used .6.35/.25ACP pistols in the gas chamber and crematoria areas of death camps.
A standard 9mm or 7.65 would over penetrate and would be a risk of ricochet in the stone and brick facilities.
The SS had Geco ammunition company custom load light 6.35 ammunition for them so they could shoot people in the back of the neck and the bullet wouldn't exit the body.
Witnesses said the only sound was a CLICK.
Exactly what brands of pistols these were is not certain, but probably small "vest pocket" models made by Walther and Mauser.
SS monster Hauptscharführer Otto Moll is estimated to have personally shot as many as 30,000 people, mostly with pistols.
He was said to have been the man who suggested purchasing the 6.35 pistols and light load ammo.
He would routinely shoot "short transports" at Birkenau when a transport had too few to be gassed effectively. These were usually around 200 people, who Moll shot behind "The Little Red House" and had them pitched into a huge burn pit behind the house.
Walther sold the PPK and PP in .9mm Kurz/.380ACP before the war and a number were imported into the US by Stoeger.
These could be bought in many gun stores in Germany by foreigners.
A little known piece of history is that the SS used .6.35/.25ACP pistols in the gas chamber and crematoria areas of death camps.
A standard 9mm or 7.65 would over penetrate and would be a risk of ricochet in the stone and brick facilities.
The SS had Geco ammunition company custom load light 6.35 ammunition for them so they could shoot people in the back of the neck and the bullet wouldn't exit the body.
Witnesses said the only sound was a CLICK.
Exactly what brands of pistols these were is not certain, but probably small "vest pocket" models made by Walther and Mauser.
SS monster Hauptscharführer Otto Moll is estimated to have personally shot as many as 30,000 people, mostly with pistols.
He was said to have been the man who suggested purchasing the 6.35 pistols and light load ammo.
He would routinely shoot "short transports" at Birkenau when a transport had too few to be gassed effectively. These were usually around 200 people, who Moll shot behind "The Little Red House" and had them pitched into a huge burn pit behind the house.
“A few years after the Models PP and PPK appearance on the world’s firearm market, Adolf Hitler and the National Socialist German Workers Party took over the reigns of the German government, the military and the police. It was then that a majority of the Walther production was contracted for by the NSDAP, German army and the national police.”
“With the emergence of the NSDAP as the power in Germany, the increase in military power was ordered, and the Army High Command-OKH-Heereswaffenamt began placing contracts with the Walther Company for both the Walther Models PP and PPK. Most of the models were contracted in caliber 7.65mm.”
“There were contracts for a smaller amount of Model PP in caliber 9mm Kurz and even less in the Model PPK in the same caliber. Depending on their serial number range, these pistols showed Crown over N. or Eagle over N. nitro proofing on the right side of the pistol’s slide, barrel and chamber. The military acceptance proofs, Eagle over 359 and Eagle over WaA359 were placed on the left side of the pistol’s slide and frame to the rear of the model designation and to the rear of the trigger on the frame.”
“The Models PP and PPK with the Waffenamt proofs began with a high polished blue finish on each pistol. But as the years progressed toward the end of World War II and the labor diminished these models showed a milled finish. The following is a short description of the Models PP and PPK bearing the Waffenamt proofs.”
. . .
“The Model PP and PPK in 9mm Kurz are both fairly rare pistols. With Waffenamt proofs they are even rarer. These pistols usually have bottom magazine releases. Their magazines will have the Walther Banner and Cal. 9mm on the left side of the magazine. Many of the 9mm Kurz models had the magazines numbered to the serial number on the pistol. These 9mm Kurz models all had a high polished finish.”
••••
https://gundigest.com/more/classic-guns/collecting-walther-military-models-pp-and-ppk
——-
http://www.germandaggers.com/Gallery/GW.php
They’re fairly rare, so not everyone has heard that much about them.
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OP
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.455_Hunter
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Wow! As a lefty, I like that heel release PPK.
Trunk Monkey
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Just so everyone is clear, I went back and watched the interview again. Winters did not mention the make or caliber of the pistol. I'm beginning to think I misremembered him saying .380. I'll leaf through the book later and check but even if it was a .32 that's not a handgun I'd want in a war
It’s all good either way. I was more going for the sake of clarity rather than anything else.
I just remembered that the Germans actually did manufacture some Walther PP’s and PPK’s in .380 ACP / 9mm Kurz and used them during WWII, so I checked a couple books and online sources and then just posted that.
Maybe Winter’s pistol was in 7.65. Who knows? : Shrug
Edit : left out a word, sentence didn’t make much sense.
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barnetmill
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I would assume that the only besides the NAZIs in Hitler's Bunker to review the scene would have been the Russians. Just how reliable is any of this information relative to specific model and caliber. I am not familiar with Mark Felton Productions. Here something relative to the pistols and reputed death of Hitler
jar
Contributing Member
Thanks.
I have owned a pre-war 380 PPK. The easy way to see caliber, pre war only, is that all 380s were heel release and the 32s were button release as far as i can tell. This meant you could load smaller into larger by accident, but the 380 mags had no catch cutout and could not be retained in a 32. Can't guarantee there were no exceptions, but it seems to hold for the ones I've seen.
Post war they made 380 have a rib to prevent insertion in a 32.
Post war they made 380 have a rib to prevent insertion in a 32.
Monac
Member
That is the Mark Felton video I meant, barnetmill. I am not good at putting links in posts. I don't know about the sources of the information in it either. Hitler having an oddball gun like a PPK in 6.35mm is a bit surprising, although of course he could have gotten any German gun he wanted.
barnetmill
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In the earlier part of the 20th century people, especially in europe were not so dead set against smaller calibers as we are today in the USA. We have clung to large pistols like forever. especially after our fight with the moros insurgents and the reported failure of the .38 long colt to stop charging Juramentados (Juramentado, in Philippine history, refers to a male Moro swordsman who attacked and killed targeted occupying and invading police and soldiers, expecting to be killed himself, the martyrdom undertaken as a form of jihad,).
Monac
Member
Yes, I quite agree, barnetmill. I was not surprised that Hitler carried a 6.35mm pistol, I was surprised it was something as bulky as a PPK. To me, the Walther Model 8 would have been a more compact alternative that still had a fairly decent grip. (I think a 6.35mm Sauer 1913 would have been even better, but I assume Hitler would have wanted a Walther because Walther was more prestigious and Hitler liked luxury goods. Mauser was also a prestige brand, but the Mauser 1912 6.35mm was about as bulky as a PPK, IIRC, while the other Mauser 25s were tiny.)
Impressive use of imbedded links, BTW!
dfariswheel
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There's not a lot of information that can be verified about Hitler's actual carry guns or the gun he shot himself with other then that they were Walther's.
Accounts say that he was always armed and that he had a special concealed pocket in his coats built to carry a pistol.
One source has it that Hitler's Walther was a plain PPK. Hitler considered himself to be a soldier, and few German officers would carry a fancy engraved pistol. That was thought to be un-officer like.
Of course Hitler owned a number of very fancy engraved and inlaid pistols, mostly Walther's, one of which was recovered from his apartment after the war.
All of of Hitler's fancy recovered pistols appear to be unused, possibly unfired.
There's a book written by Russians and using Soviet archives to investigate the death and final disposition of Hitler's body.
The Soviet's formed a special unit to find Hitler in the last year of the war by order of Stalin.
They "interviewed" everyone that was in the bunker in the final days and survived the war.
One witness told them that the Walther Hitler killed himself with was taken by a general who said the gun "Would be hidden away until a better day".
It has never been recovered.
If as witnesses said, it was an ordinary plain Walther PPK someone might have it and not know what it was.
Most German officers who weren't actual combat leaders seem to have carried .32 automatics.
These were more "Badges of office" then for actual combat use.
Since they were not expected to fight a small easily carried pistol was preferred.
Accounts say that he was always armed and that he had a special concealed pocket in his coats built to carry a pistol.
One source has it that Hitler's Walther was a plain PPK. Hitler considered himself to be a soldier, and few German officers would carry a fancy engraved pistol. That was thought to be un-officer like.
Of course Hitler owned a number of very fancy engraved and inlaid pistols, mostly Walther's, one of which was recovered from his apartment after the war.
All of of Hitler's fancy recovered pistols appear to be unused, possibly unfired.
There's a book written by Russians and using Soviet archives to investigate the death and final disposition of Hitler's body.
The Soviet's formed a special unit to find Hitler in the last year of the war by order of Stalin.
They "interviewed" everyone that was in the bunker in the final days and survived the war.
One witness told them that the Walther Hitler killed himself with was taken by a general who said the gun "Would be hidden away until a better day".
It has never been recovered.
If as witnesses said, it was an ordinary plain Walther PPK someone might have it and not know what it was.
Most German officers who weren't actual combat leaders seem to have carried .32 automatics.
These were more "Badges of office" then for actual combat use.
Since they were not expected to fight a small easily carried pistol was preferred.
barnetmill
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Relative to .32 ACPs, it was often enough considered adequate for a policeman also in europe. I might add there were years ago in the USA police departments that carried .32 colt and smith & wesson service revolvers. For europe with a few exceptions 9's such as the 9x19 was the biggest caliber that the militaries used. There were a few that did use the .45 ACP, but not so common. Penetration for a service pistol was often more important than having a big bore size. Going all of the way from Leningrad to China the .30 mauser and 7.62 tokarev were highly favored rounds. Those are cold climates and people often wear heavy garments in the winter is my thinking for the popularity of such pistols. Even the original 7.62 nagants being similar to a 32-20 had good penetration. 95-100 grain bullet at almost 1000 fps. Not to be compared to some of the anemic imported loads that are available. I once got a hold of a few rounds of WWII Soviet 7.62x38 nagant and that stuff was hot fmj ammo.
My uncle brought home a 1942 Colt 1911. He was working POW transfer point and some German officers arrived, they should have been searched twice before arriving at his location. He said one of the officers getting out of a 2.5 ton truck pulled out a gun killing a GI before my uncle killed the German. The German had a US issued Colt 1911 and a smaller folding trigger 32 (with a swastika engraved on it). I now have both pistols and one of my uncles dog tags to go with them.
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