Getting back into BP revolvers....

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Big D

Big D

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Hey yall. I've been out of BP shooting for years. I purchased a Pietta
1851 Navy clone proably tens years ago, and have it shot it in probably 8.
I was wanting to get another BP revolver, and also start shooting more.
I was looking into getting either the steel/brass frame 1858 New Model Army, but would like to know if there are any downsides to the brass frame model. Any replies would be greatly appreciated!
 
The brass frames can't handle many stout loads. The frame stretches from what I've read.
 
One downside is that the brass frame 1858 is more expensive than the steel frame 1858 right now during the Cabela's Father's Day Sale, $219 verses $199.

http://www.cabelas.com/catalog/browse/shooting-black-powder-pistols-revolvers/_/N-1100201/Ns-CATEGORY_SEQ_104503680?WTz_l=SBC%3Bcat104701680


The brass frame is heavier.
While the brass frame may last for 1,000's of rounds, the steel frame would probably last for many more 1,000's of rounds.
The cylinder pin holes in the brass frame may wear and become oval over time.
Then steel bushings would need to be installed to keep it from going out of time as it gets worse.
Most folks are warned to limit how much powder is loaded to help the brass frame last longer. Just how long it will last under any circumstances is really not predictable. It could last a lifetime for the average shooter, or maybe not. Meanwhile the steel frame would probably be able to handle more abuse, more full house loads and last for more than a lifetime.
Except for the .22LR conversion cylinder, center fire conversion cylinders are only recommended for use with the steel frames.
 
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Cowboy loads are the recommended loads for a steel framed/conversion revolver. Conversion cylinders are NOT recommended for brass framed revolvers.
 
"...The cylinder pin holes in the brass frame may wear and become oval over time..."

This particular wear area on the 1858s will happen on the steel frame guns also because it occurs due to the base pin rotating in the frame hole.
There is a fix that eliminates the problem which consists of a base pin with a set screw (or a set screw against the base pin?) which is meant to keep the pin from moving around and wallowing out the frame hole.
It might be a Belt Mountain? base pin that incorporates that retaining screw, you'd have to check thier site to be certain.
 
Well start to understand this. There is steel and then there is steel. All pistol frames are not made from the same grade of steel nor are they hardened to the same degree.
 
junkman 01 said:
The arbor pin on a Remington revolver does not rotate. :banghead:
Click to expand...

Thank you. I was about to pull my 8" NMA apart in an attempt to figure out how that could possibly happen. The 8" (okay, 7.5") has lot more "mileage" on it than its 5-1/2 inch little brother; so I figured that it was the one most likely to lose the finger-hold "wings".

To quote my oldest daughter, now a former Army E-5 learning to be an Iowa farm wife; "YeeeaaaahhhNO!" :rolleyes:
Unless one were to un-screw the barrel; that pin isn't rotating much more than 1-2 degrees at the most in either direction.
 
Big D said:
What I don't understand is that it is a steel frame and cannot handle modern smokeless loads?
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One manufacturer recommends cowboy loads that are loaded between 750 - 850 fps. They also recommend loading .45LC cartridges with only 34 grains of black or substitute powder.
Those are simply the manufacturer's recommendations that are based on product liability and the potential for wear & tear on the gun's components.
Meanwhile the manufacturers tout the high quality arsenal grade steel that their conversion cylinders are made out of, and how safe they are.
It's not the revolver manufacturer that's recommending limiting the type of loads (they're basically silent about it). However the cowboy ammo recommendation acknowledges that these percussion guns are only intended to be fired with black powder and substitutes.
What would anyone expect the conversion manufacturer's to say, go ahead and shoot any commercial smokeless loads that you want even though the guns were only intended to shoot black powder as percussion guns? The gun manufacturers may not stand for the cylinder manufacturers to say that even if it were true and perfectly okay to do.
Once they acknowedge that any commercial smokeless loads can be used then that opens the door to product liability.
No modern gun manufacturer recommends shooting smokeless hand loads in their guns without voiding the warranty either. But that doesn't stop hand loaders from making and firing hand loaded ammo with their guns.
It's standard procedure to have such disclaimers even if only for product liability reasons.
Remember, the Italian guns aren't built like Ruger Blackhawks or Old Army's either. :)

See an older conversion cylinder brochure:

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=124198&d=1279190379

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=124200&d=1279190500
 
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Big D said:
I would love to get another CNB and get a conversion cylinder, but the cowboy ammo is just so dang expensive....
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start reloading it becomes very cheap then

a thought on your other comments about smokeless first dont do it unless it is reloaded to cowboy load specs or gallery loads as i have heard very low power smokless loads
called.

second thought is you may try comparing the cyl wall thickness of your BP revolver against a modern 45 colt wheel gun like a blackhawk this is probably one very good reason not to go with smokeless loads in a old revolver or replica.

and brass frames are pretty wall hangers or low power plinkers IMO. hehe i also think that
of steel frame colts but hey im a remington guy
 
I think a lot of you guys are missing the point of having a BP revolver in the first place.
if you want a pistol that fires modern smokeless cartridges then get a single action revolver designed to shoot modern smokeless cartridges.

I love the fire and smoke that is produced when firing a BP pistol or rifle there is something nostalgic about even loading the cylinders that you cant get with smokeless rounds that just drop in the cylinder.
 
A conversion cylinder helps to build a dual (or triple) ammo. revolver while also helping people to exercise their 2nd Amendment rights.
That shouldn't be seen as a bad thing for those who chose that option.
If folks can shoot more than one ammo then it's a win-win for them.
Maybe some folks like shooting a gun that's not registered and not as traceable.
And some may want to load smokeless rounds for self-defense while carrying the gun of their choice that they enjoy and shoot well with.
 
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by all means exercise your right to keep and bear arms however you see fit as long as it is not prohibited by the law:rolleyes:

I was just exercising my constitutional right to express my opinion:D

the whole premise of my last comment was about those wanting to use modern smokeless powder in a primitive fire arm, the two just dont need to be mixed just for the purpose of good old common sense and safety.
I see no reason why someone should not have several conversion cylinders but need to use black powder or equivalent propellant. in fact these cylinders are safer due you dont have to worry about chain fires in the cylinders.

the mose cost effectice way to shoot C&B revolvers is the old fashioned way tho but ya if you carry one for protection the most practical way would be to use a cartridge cylinder.
 
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St8LineGunsmith said:
the whole premise of my last comment was about those wanting to use modern smokeless powder in a primitive fire arm, the two just dont need to be mixed just for the purpose of good old common sense and safety.
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Now there's Blackhorn 209 which is a smokeless substitute powder that can be loaded in cartridges too.
And also Trail Boss and other cowboy action powders like Tite Group or whatever other sub. powders that folks like to load with that are available.
Someone recently posted elsewhere that 95% of all cowboy shooters fire cartridges in competition, which leaves only 5% shooting cap & ball percussion.
I guess the conversion cylinders represent the actual historical progression from percussion to modern. Even back in the early 1900's, bulk smokeless powders were developed that helped to bridge the gap between black powder and modern smokeless guns and cartridges. They were made bulky to be safer so that they could be loaded more or less just like black powder in cartridges without harming the older conversion guns of the time.
 
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Ya I understand that but most of the 95% of those guys are not shooting converted C&B revolvers they are using cowboy action revolvers designed to chamber cartridges, lever action rifles and double barrel shotguns AKA coach guns.
Blackhorn 209? that is made for BP shooting and is a good non corrosive propellant and trust me it is not smokeless just dont smoke as much as 777 or pyrodex and i use it for loading 45-70 cartridges... good stuff and perfectly suitable for cowboy cartridges for conversion cylinders for 1851 and 1858 copys.
 
St8LineGunsmith said:
Blackhorn 209? that is made for BP shooting and is a good non corrosive propellant and trust me it is not smokeless
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Folks who know more about Blackhorn 209 than I do have said that it's a progressive burning duplex powder - a.k.a. smokeless.
Its MSDS lists the main ingredients as being 30% - 90% nitrate ester which indicates that it's made using nitroglycerin, along with 1% - 5% stabilizer which are both telltale signs of it actually being a smokeless powder.

http://www.blackhorn209.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/blackhorn209_msds.pdf

Nitrate esters, such as nitroglycerin, are known for their explosive properties...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ester
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Today, propellants based on nitrocellulose alone (typically an ether-alcohol colloid of nitrocellulose) are described as single-base powder,[15] whereas cordite-like mixtures using nitroglycerin to dissolve the nitrocellulose are known as double-base powder.[16]...

...To prevent buildup of the deterioration products, stabilizers are added. Nitrocellulose deteriorates with time, yielding acidic byproducts....
...double-base and triple-base propellants tend to deteriorate more slowly.
...To prevent buildup of the deterioration products, stabilizers are added...The stabilizers are added in the amount of 0.5–2% of the total amount of the formulation;...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smokeless_powder
Click to expand...

Lastly, Blackhorn 209 residue is not water soluble and oil based smokeless powder solvents must be used to clean it. That's another strong indication that Blackhorn 209 is indeed a smokeless black powder substitute.

See Blackhorn 209 General Cleaning:

http://www.blackhorn209.com/specs/general-cleaning/
 
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Smokeless powder also produces smoke, and some produce more than others.
They add some things to BH 209, to lessen its combustion rate and perhaps to slightly lower its ignition temp.. It's designed to be a specialized replacement, a bulk, fluffy smokeless powder.

Despite its name, smokeless powder is not completely smoke-free;[2] while there may be little noticeable smoke from small-arms ammunition, smoke from artillery fire can be substantial.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smokeless_powder
Click to expand...
 
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