Giffords shooting / mass murder

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This was a political event, so it's likely that some people who would normally carry didn't just to avoid misunderstandings about intent. Also, this was a democratic pol, so even though she's reputedly pro-RKBA, her constituents were far less likely to be carrying.
 
Well it was a meet and greet event for Giffords and her constituents, regardless of party. It was held in an open environment on a public sidewalk of a Safeway with all of the associated business, activities, and people that would be there anyway.

As for people who would normally carry who might not have carried their to prevent misunderstanding, I don't understand what you are talking about. AZ has permitless concealed carry that goes with permitless open carry. There is no reason for anyone to know if you are carrying concealed. Even if carrying and somebody sees, it isn't a problem.
 
If you ever have the misfortune of being within arms reach, or are able to reach a shooter-killer with your hands do this;

Grab the weapon with your weak hand and direct it muzzle upward and away from you if you can - and hit him/her as hard as you accurately can in the throat. Strong hand outside edge, first finger knuckles, the web of your hand between thumb and index finger, outside wrist, elbow, whatever you can or prefer. It will very likely disable him/her instantly.

If your positioning, or natural reaction causes you to grab the weapon with your stronghand, fine. A disabling blow to the throat can be delivered weak handed. The main thing is accuracy and followup.

If they don't buckle and/or fall, do it again. If they grab their throat and do not fall maintain your grasp on the weapon, direct it skyward and pummel them with your fist until they let go of it.

Grappling with an armed nut is very risky. Unless you can overpower them you have a tiger by the tail.

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Je Suis Prest
 
Does anyone know what cal the gun was that he used?

Thankfully, he was apparently firing FMJ. If JHPs the rd would not have passed through the head without creating a fatal wound cavity.
 
My personal opinion is if anyone was carrying concealed it happened so fast and over so quickly I doubt if any regular citizen would have made the mistake of going for their concealed weapon, good way to get shot during the panic.
 
The New York times had a series about "Rampage Killers" http://partners.nytimes.com/library/national/041000rampage-killers.html Rampage killers have been with us for as long as recorded history. Their series went back about 50 years and coincided with the High School rampage killings that were going on at the turn of this century.

Society has lots of angry depressed people, every so often one of them decides to kill as many people as they can, in as short of a time period as they can.

The interesting conclusion to me, was that rampage killings come and go in cycles. The cycle increases based on the frequency of reporting of rampage killings.

Expect to see more as some angry depressed person reads about this one and gets the idea that this is a great way to get back at the world.
 
I've read through alot here, and my thoughts are:

If you protect you and your's only, and everyone has the same mindset, then how does anyone stop the guy? There were some real heroes that thought they were going to die, and instead tackle the guy.
 
With the number of shots and attempting reload, I would say a 9mm was the unit, Glock type... Information is coming out now about the wound and damage...

Does anyone know what cal the gun was that he used?
Thankfully, he was apparently firing FMJ. If JHPs the rd would not have passed through the head without creating a fatal wound cavity.
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I can't help but wonder if there was anyone there, leo or civilian, who may have been armed?
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There was and his story is an interesting read on the confusion that happens in the seconds these incidents occur. Anyone who has ever been involved can testify that the Monday morning quarterbacking is at the least annoying..

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41018893/ns/slatecom/

Congresswoman's security detail was not as super as one might imagine
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They don't have one. They have administrative staff. Security for large events is provided by the city itself. Small events have none.

Gawaker.com is a source??? How about a real source. That's total bs.
 
If the light is green, shoot.

I think far too much is made about endangering others. It's unlikely you'll ever have a truly clean shot in such a chaotic situation, so you take what you can get. If someone else gets hit by a miss or overpenetration, so be it. You have to weigh that against the fact that every other second another life is being taken by the madman. Aim for the torso, try very hard not to miss, but don't just wait for him to have to reload. As with the VA tech shooter he could just have a second handgun ready to go.
 
Cosmoline,
That is not responsible imho, :confused:not a good thing to put yourself in that legal quandry at all...If you have a shot, take it, if not, don't...
 
I've read through alot here, and my thoughts are:

If you protect you and your's only, and everyone has the same mindset, then how does anyone stop the guy? There were some real heroes that thought they were going to die, and instead tackle the guy.
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I agree with you, Yo Mama.
I've gone back and forth several times with people on here, to the point threads were closed and I stopped posting here nearly altogether.
A lot of people take the "I'm only protecting me and mine" mindset, and that's fine for them. It just reinforces the whole argument for me.
 
If you have a shot, take it, if not, don't...
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The problem lies in how you define having a shot. Abiding by the four rules, you will virtually NEVER have a truly clean shot in such a situation. There will be people behind and around the shooter, and walls all around that won't stop the bullet. When it's life or death you have to accept some measure of risk to bystanders or there's no point in even bothering to carry for defense.
 
When it's life or death you have to accept some measure of risk to bystanders or there's no point in even bothering to carry for defense.
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I agree. If you're going to draw and then hesitate, you'll be the next one stretched out on the ground.
 
Tackling the gunman was the best solution, because it worked. It saved lives.

Take 10 friends sometimes pretend your finger are guns. Have someone ring a bell like someone just shot a gun. Everyone pull your guns and shot the Gunman. Now that you have 9 gunman in front of you, which one do you shoot and which one just shot you.
 
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Contact shot

Probably the best shot would be a contact shot if you can get in position out of the attackers direct line of fire.

As distance increases the chance hitting an innocent party increases. Then you must make a split second call weighing the risk to all of making the best available shot vs. the risk to all of holding your fire.

The best of training does not come with a guarantee. Pray you make the right call.
 
The Judge who was killed normally carries. Its been said he was not because he had just left church and doesn't carry there. A lot of people would not carry to meet with a congresswoman out of respect. She was also a Democrat which changes the demographics of who would be there to meet with her some. There may well have been a couple of people CCWing but with a crowd in panic just could not get a shot through all the people fleeing or indeed never drew for the same reason. Even in AZ I doubt you would be likely to have more than a couple of people carrying out of a hundred, a couple might even be more than likely.
 
Tackling the gunman was the best solution, because it worked. It saved lives.
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It has been used in other shootings as well. Here, however, both the guys first on the shooter credited the man that hit the shooter across the back of the head/shoulders area with one of the folding chairs. That caused the gunman to drop his left hand that was immediately taken by one of the tacklers.
 
If you haven't yet seen the Fox and Friends interview with Joseph Zamudio, you really should watch it. His actions and decisions is a case study all it's own.

http://www.foxnewsinsider.com/2011/...oughner-had-a-gun-and-he-was-ready-to-use-it/

In about 30 seconds time he:

  • Heard gunfire and interpretted it accurately as such;
  • Immediately put a plan in motion to go help;
  • When he exited noticed the gun was in slidelock;
  • Decided not to shoot;
  • Had the composure in all that chaos to determine that the person holding that gun was not the shooter;
  • Switched his plan immediately from "shoot the threat", to "go hands on and subdue the threat".


That's pretty amazing. From a 24 year old guy. Who had no military background and no formal training. Who was just out buying some cigarettes.
 
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