Glaser/Magsafe

[mljdeckard]

Um, no.

Even if it happened to work in this case, do you REALLY think it's a valid defense plan to use ammo hoping that if you don't get a good shot, one of the fragments will travel and perforate a major blood vessel? That's the plan? In a world where bizarre things can and will happen, this one is pretty bizarre. This is like saying you won't wear your seatbelt because you know a guy who jumped out of his car before it went off a cliff, and if he had been wearing his seatbelt, he wouldn't have been able to. Doesn't mean seatbelts aren't the best plan.

I once watched a .22 enter below my friend's ribcage in front, exit out his back, and walked out of the ER with two stitches and a bandaid. The bullet skimmed the outside of the chest cavity and exited. Doesn't mean I plan on it happening again.

 

[Shadow 7D]

No deckard

what you learn is
when using VERY questionable ammo, shoot for soft parts
and what he forget to mention is the guy probably died from SEPSIS
the gut bacteria got out and got to play

really a VERY bad death.

 

[bigger hammer]

Mljdeckard wrote,

Even if it happened to work in this case, do you REALLY think it's a valid defense plan to use ammo hoping that if you don't get a good shot, one of the fragments will travel and perforate a major blood vessel? That's the plan? [Emphasis Added]

I must have missed the part of my post where I said that my plan was to "hope" that I'd not "get a good shot and that one of the fragments would perforate a major blood vessel." Can you point it out please?

The fact that one of the pieces of shot perforated a major blood vessel had little or nothing to do with the fact that the swing of the belt buckle was stopped "mid swing." That had only to do with the fact that the attacker died as a result of his wound. IMO the fact that the swing of the belt was stopped "midswing" was because shock was transferred to the attacker faster than if he'd been shot with a HP bullet.

I was merely responding to those who said that Glaser ammo is no good and that it wouldn't result in a stopping shot. I think that my firsthand experience trumps their theories. Had the shot been better placed I have little doubt that the result would have been about the same.

To directly answer the OP's questions: Yes, I'd use them for self defense but only for the first one or two rounds. I wouldn't count on them to penetrate heavy clothing such as a thick down or leather jacket. Never had any hangfires in my revolvers. I've carried them in both a Charter Bulldog in .44 spl and a .38, J frame. Accuracy was acceptable within self-defense standards.

 

[bigger hammer]

Shadow 7D wrote,

what he forget to mention is the guy probably died from SEPSIS
the gut bacteria got out and got to play

Quite the leap to a conclusion that turns out to be false. Death occurred within an hour or two, NOT from "SEPSIS" as you assumed.

 

[Shadow 7D]

OK, but see here is the thing
the stop was...

WAIT FOR IT

PSYCHOSOMATIC
look up the word, same reason people fall over after getting shot
(stopping power, knock down power and the related cow pocky)

the Physics of the bullet are such that it doesn't work that way.

Anywho, David used a sling against Goliath, doesn't mean I recommend that VERY effective weapon

in standard testing, those rounds fail, on many accounts, some of which they are designed to do. If they were 'great man stoppers'

I am sure we would see many agencies using them, and not on the turn thingy pushed with a bunch of hyperbole and hardsell.

OH, btw, 7 years as a combat medic. that is a non life threatening wound, unless your buddy got lucky (and HE DID) that if you miss the big blood vessels, and the blood filled organs (spleen, liver)

they die of sepsis, sometimes in less than 24 hours

 

[Shawn Dodson]

A few years ago I was testing a few bullets using water-filled cardboard milk cartons. When I'd finished I had a few milk cartons left over and a guy who'd been watching me approached and asked what I was doing. I explained that I was testing terminal performance. He asked if he could test a .44 Magnum Glaser Blue cartridge. Since I was done and cleaning up I said "sure". I set up the remaining milk cartons and let him have at it. The first milk carton exploded dramatically. When we went up and inspected the results we discovered that none of the shot penetrated into the second milk carton.

One water-filled milk carton approximates 2.5" penetration.

 

[Shadow 7D]

if the guy isn't fat, you might make it to his intestines = sepsis
next

 

[bigger hammer]

Shadow 7D wrote,

OK, but see here is the thing
the stop was...

WAIT FOR IT

PSYCHOSOMATIC
look up the word

Excellent advice. From this site, http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/psychosomatic

Psychosomatic: [sahy-koh-suh-mat-ik, -soh-]

–adjective
1. of or pertaining to a physical disorder that is caused by or notably influenced by emotional factors.
2. pertaining to or involving both the mind and the body.

So you think that this man stopped his attack "midswing" because of "emotional factors?" Or that it had something to do with his "mind and ... body?" Please explain.

Shadow 7D wrote,

the Physics of the bullet are such that it doesn't work that way.

Who said anything about physics? I think it was because the pain of getting shot was more severe than a conventional HP would give. I think it's because the wound was spread over such a large area of his body, activating nerves in a much larger area than a conventional HP would. From high in the chest to mid thigh he received trauma. No HP is capable of that.

Shadow 7D wrote,

in standard testing, those rounds fail, on many accounts, some of which they are designed to do. If they were 'great man stoppers'

I have no idea of what "standard testing" means and neither does anyone else because there is no such thing. Rather there are MANY standards, none of them accepted by everyone.

What we have here is one incident where the round worked superbly and a conventional HP would probably have failed to stop the action soon enough for the victim to have survived. I'd never suggest that one should base his carry policy on one incident but it does shoot down (pun intended) the theories of those who talk about how worthless this ammunition is.

Shadow 7D wrote,

I am sure we would see many agencies using them, and not on the turn thingy pushed with a bunch of hyperbole and hardsell.

I doubt it. They cause a very ugly (in appearance) wound that most LE agencies would have a hard time justifying given the horrid press that they'd get. Heck it's only recently ("recent" being a relative term) that some went to HP ammo from 158 gr. round nose lead bullets fired from .38 revolvers.

Shadow 7D wrote,

OH, btw, 7 years as a combat medic. that is a non life threatening wound, unless your buddy got lucky (and HE DID) that if you miss the big blood vessels, and the blood filled organs (spleen, liver)

they die of sepsis, sometimes in less than 24 hours [Emphasis Added]

As a former cop of 30 years who has seen hundreds of shooting victims and several dozen autopsies, I'll disagree that this was a "non life threatening wound." The artery was punctured internally and the bleeding continued unabated and unseen until the attacker had bled out. Perhaps if the punctured artery had been diagnosed (all but impossible given that the wound was about a foot away from the puncture) the "big city" paramedics (who probably have seen as many GSW victims as you have) could do nothing to save him. The (also "big city") ER doctors (who likewise, have probably seen as many GSW injuries as you have) that opened him up did not see it either. The injury was not discovered until the autopsy

Nonetheless you jumped to a conclusion that was wrong. The perforation of the femoral artery in this case was just a matter of luck (bad luck for everyone involved). But it had nothing to do with the "midswing stop." That was due, IMO, to the massive amount of pain and shock delivered to the attacker in a faster amount of time than a conventional HP round would have delivered.

 

[bigger hammer]

Shawn Dodson wrote,

The first milk carton exploded dramatically. [Emphasis Added]

Thanks for helping to make my point. There's more to stopping someone than just penetration.

 

[Shadow 7D]

I will say this again
there is no SUCH THING
as a wonder round, there are rounds that perform certain things better than others
I don't think bird shot is a good Idea from the RESEARCH
but what you use, is yours, have fun, I prefer what the cops use.

BTW, second definition, Guy stops from 1.) shock of BEING shot(mental, not physical btw) this is also getting inside his OODA, he didn't expect to be shot

brain and body stop to process that
pain isn't really involved, research on pain actually has found that there tends to be a delay, kinda weird.
Second, second definition - mind goes, 'I'm shot, oh no, what do I do now, - - wait, they fall over in the movies'

rarely do people just drop, and when they do (not stumble, not fall from balance, just drop) they often get back up when shot. Even the walking dead, and I exclude apricot shots, but you don't take those with glasers.

 

[Erik M]

They are fun to shoot watermelon and the like with.

Would I use it as my carry ammo, trusting my life to it? no.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

bigger hammer writes:

Thanks for helping to make my point. There's more to stopping someone than just penetration.

OMG, it really stopped that water-filled milk carton! LOL

Seriously, a bullet must damage vitals critical to immediate survival to compel a determined attacker to stop.

 

[bigger hammer]

Shadow 7D wrote,

I will say this again
there is no SUCH THING
as a wonder round [Emphasis Added]

Great Straw Man argument, but since no one in this discussion has made such a statement, it's really meaningless.

Shadow 7D wrote,

there are rounds that perform certain things better than others
I don't think bird shot is a good Idea from the RESEARCH [Emphasis Added]

Except that a Glaser is nowhere near the same as "birdshot."

Shadow 7D wrote,

but what you use, is yours, have fun, I prefer what the cops use.

The cops, of course have all the answers right? They're not affected by politics, what the press might say about their actions, doing favors for vendors who treat them right, and/or tests that may or may not be right.

Shadow 7D wrote,

BTW, second definition, Guy stops from 1.) shock of BEING shot(mental, not physical btw) this is also getting inside his OODA, he didn't expect to be shot

While the attacker might not have expected the victim to pull the trigger, he knew full well that he was armed. He'd assaulted the victim once before with a deadly weapon (an empty fifth liquor bottle) and backed down because he got a gun pointed at him. On this occasion the victim pointed the gun at him again, and told him to stop advancing or be shot.

But whatever happened to your argument that ... "wait for it" ... this stop was "PSYCHOSOMATIC?"

Shadow 7D wrote,

pain isn't really involved, research on pain actually has found that there tends to be a delay, kinda weird.

Again you defer to research. I've conducted dozens of interviews with shooting victims. EVERYONE of them mentioned THE PAIN as why the reason that they stopped their actions. These interviews were conducted on victims and suspects alike. NOT ONE OF THEM mentioned a delay of the onset of the pain.

Shadow 7D wrote,

Second, second definition - mind goes, 'I'm shot, oh no, what do I do now, - - wait, they fall over in the movies'

You're free to refer to the movies if you like. I prefer to stay in real life.

Shadow 7D wrote,

rarely do people just drop, and when they do (not stumble, not fall from balance, just drop) they often get back up when shot.

Yes, I know. Not sure what this has to do with this discussion though. As I said in my initial post, "The attacker literally "froze" (meaning that he halted his swing) in mid swing." AFTER the "freeze" he staggered away. I said nothing of the attacker "drop[ping]" or "back[ing] up."

 

[bigger hammer]

Erik M wrote,

Would I use it as my carry ammo, trusting my life to it? **** no.

To each their own. In this case, it saved the victim's life when a conventional HP, the kind that you seem to favor, probably would have gotten him killed (an assumption, I admit). I suggest carrying the first round, a Glaser, and the rest conventional HP's.

 

[scaatylobo]

Did you notice

Those with LEO background and with actual ER experience = all saw and see the Glaser as a viable round ?.

I was LEO for 26 years and I am the one that carries GSS & HP alternately in certain guns [ snubs ] and even in pistols.

Its my life and I feel safe doing this,as do those that went in harms way and those that SAW THE RESULTS.

Do as y'all please,but follow the bouncing ball to get the REAL words to the song !!.

 

[bigger hammer]

Shawn Dodson wrote,

Seriously, a bullet must damage vitals critical to immediate survival to compel a determined attacker to stop. [Emphasis Added]

The operant word in your statement is "compel." Do you consider that a person who "volunteers" to stop his attack because he's afraid or is in pain to have been "compelled?" Some will and some won't.

There are several ways that a bullet can stop a "determined attacked." A person can have a gun pointed at him and volunteer to cut off his attack. Here the word "volunteer" means that he stops of his own volition rather than face the consequences. It can happen several ways.

A person can be shot at and missed and volunteer to cut off his attack. He stops because he's afraid that the next round won't miss.

A person can be shot in a non-lethal area and because it hurts volunteer to cut off his attack.

Similarly a person can be shot in a lethal area and because it hurts, volunteer to cut off his attack.

A person can be shot in the pelvis (considering for these purposes that it breaks) and unable to continue his attack (depending on his weapon of choice.) If that weapon is a firearm he may continue the attack or he may, because he's down, volunteer to cut off his attack. If his weapon is an edged weapon (or fists/boots, etc.) his attack is over because he can no longer approach his victim.

A person can be shot in a lethal area and because of blood loss, he passes out. That removes the voluntary nature of the stop and moves into the compelling region.

A person can be shot in the brain/CNS area and because there is no more communication between the brain and the body, cut off his attack. This too removes the voluntary nature of the stop and moves into the compelling region.

 

[bigger hammer]

scaatylobo wrote,

Did you notice

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Those with LEO background and with actual ER experience = all saw and see the Glaser as a viable round ?.

Please try not to confuse this discussion with facts OK? They just conflict with the "research" and the opinions. LOL

 

[doc540]

I carried them for years (even talked with Joe by phone) until I read a single post on the internet that caused the scales to fall from my eyes.

Look carefully at the pictures shown in the link already posted:
http://firearmsid.com/Feature Articles/102000/JohannesburgTraumaUnit.htm
(note the text: "He also caught a few fragments in his chest wall (see the X-Rays) but they didn't penetrate deeply enough to cause him a haemothorax or pneumothorax."

What it reveals is the fact of Glaser/MagSafe weakeness:

Any obstruction can cause them to expend most of their energy..

Think about it: car window, elbow, belt buckle, forearm, anything can cause them to fragment too early to cause enough subsequent damage to stop an attack.

I have a handful of them lingering in my misc. parts box.

Now I carry Barnes Bullets loaded by CorBon DPX.

 

[Shadow 7D]

btw, they are bird shot compressed into a jacket, that's what and why they do what they do. Read the box, it says so in the description, the difference between the colors is the size of BIRDSHOT

 

[Shadow 7D]

They are sold as exotic ammo
at least they aren't EXTREME SHOCK
but still fall in the 'wonder' round, in that many people who carry them make claims, like

I think it's because the wound was spread over such a large area of his body, activating nerves in a much larger area than a conventional HP would. From high in the chest to mid thigh he received trauma. No HP is capable of that.

where is the straw man?
actually I take that back, cyanide tipped exploding rounds, where did I leave that box again?

Any who, besmirch me I'm done, thought about them, thought about bird in a shoty (lead BB-T turkey loads are still call every once and a while) but lastly I'm
PLACEMENT PLACEMENT PLACEMENT sort of guy...
and I hope to have the penetration to reach that which must be touched.

 

[Owen Sparks]

An ER doctor in my town went out and bought Glazers for every pistol he had after treating someone shot in the chest with one. The damage was so extensive that the victim did not survive.

 

[mljdeckard]

But even if I fire a bad shot, I am much more confident of the damage and penetration that will be caused by premium JHP ammo.

 

[bigger hammer]

doc540 wrote,

I carried them for years (even talked with Joe by phone) until I read a single post on the internet that caused the scales to fall from my eyes.

Look carefully at the pictures shown in the link already posted:
http://firearmsid.com/Feature Arti...TraumaUnit.htm
(note the text: "He also caught a few fragments in his chest wall (see the X-Rays) but they didn't penetrate deeply enough to cause him a haemothorax or pneumothorax."

What it reveals is the fact of Glaser/MagSafe weakeness:

Any obstruction can cause them to expend most of their energy..

Think about it: car window, elbow, belt buckle, forearm, anything can cause them to fragment too early to cause enough subsequent damage to stop an attack.

Initially I didn't look at your link because I know about the Glaser's weaknesses. And so should you since you carried them at one time! But now I'm glad that I did. This fella was shot in the elbow and he didn't know who had fired the shot. It's completely possible that he was standing and was shot from the rear. In this case a conventional HP probably would not have opened up much, if at all, and it's quite likely that there would have been ABSOLUTELY NO INJURY except to the elbow NO MATTER what type of bullet he'd been shot with. Of course it's impossible to predict what path a bullet will take but in all likelihood a bullet with more penetration would have exited out the inner surface of his arm and hit someone or something else.

I've already written "I wouldn't count on them to penetrate heavy clothing such as a thick down or leather jacket." If anyone said to throw away all the rest of your ammo and start carrying Glasers, you might have a point. But those of us who carry them are doing so on the first−round−only or at least alternating them with conventional HP's.

BTW I've personally done testing on the effect of a Glaser v. a car windshield. It removed it much more effectively than either FMJ's or conventional HP's allowing for an almost unimpeded path to following rounds. The FMJ and the HP's merely punched a hole in it, leaving it mostly intact for the following rounds. The following rounds are not diverted as much as the first round but still it's nowhere near as clear as after a Glaser hits it.

doc540 wrote,

Now I carry Barnes Bullets loaded by CorBon DPX.

A great round. But in the incident described, I doubt that it would have stopped the attacker "midswing" as the Glaser did. Just an assumption, I realize. But more than likely the HP would have exited after penetrating several inches of fat and skin and not done any more damage. The pain might have made the attacker stop but that's him volunteering, not me compelling.

 

[bigger hammer]

Shadow 7D wrote,

btw, they are bird shot compressed into a jacket, that's what and why they do what they do. Read the box, it says so in the description, the difference between the colors is the size of BIRDSHOT

Now I'm wondering if in your rather consistent FAIL in this argument you're purposefully trying to mislead people or if you're just ... well let's say "uninformed."

There's a VAST difference between a simple birdshot load and birdshot contained in a Glaser round, as to its terminal ballistics.

 

[bigger hammer]

Shadow 7D wrote,

They are sold as exotic ammo

Please direct us to an ad from Glasers that calls it "exotic ammo." And BTW who cares about the marketing? They certainly are far different, in design, than the standard FMJ or HP. Is that "exotic" and if so, what difference does it make?

Shadow 7D wrote,

at least they are EXTREME SHOCK

No idea what this means from a marketing standpoint. But in the incident I've previously described I think that's the only reason that the attacker stopped.

Shadow 7D wrote,

but still fall in the 'wonder' round, in that many people who carry them make claims

Nonsense. I certainly DID NOT call it a "wonder round." Since you make this claim can you please point out where anyone in this discussion has said this? Sounds like that same Straw Man argument again.


Shadow 7D wrote,

where is the straw man?

When you wrote this, "I will say this again ... there is no SUCH THING as a wonder round." you insinuated that someone made such a statement and that you're now decrying it. Since no one has made any such statement, it's a Straw Man argument.

Shadow 7D wrote,

Any who, besmirch me I'm done, thought about them, thought about bird in a shoty (lead BB-T turkey loads are still call every once and a while) but lastly I'm
PLACEMENT PLACEMENT PLACEMENT sort of guy...

This paragraph is not very clearly written but I think you're comparing bird shot in a shotgun to the Glaser ammo. AGAIN, it seems that you're purposefully trying to mislead but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and let it go with the assumption that you're merely uninformed. AGAIN, anyone who tries to make this comparison is waaaay off base.

Shadow 7D wrote,

and I hope to have the penetration to reach that which must be touched.

Based on the shooting incident described in this thread you're wrong. It's NOT essential to "touch" any vitals to stop an attacker.

The shooter in that incident certainly wishes that his placement had been better. But given the fact that he did not want to shoot his attacker and he waited too long to fire, forcing him to duck, cover his head with his off arm and shoot all at the same time, the placement was as good as it could be. I'm a big fan of placement being the single most important concern at the time of a deadly force incident too. But it's not always possible. In fact, if you look at actual shooting incidents rather than spending all your time in "research" you'll discover that in real gunfights many rounds miss and many strike non−vital areas.

BTW I'm wondering how many gunfights you've been in where you shot someone with a HP in order to survive?