Glock vs. 1911 1000 Round Match in OK 10/20/2007

[1lostinspace]

I have owned Glocks for a long time and have talked to allot of range owners these problems you mentioned in one competition don't happen over a full year of shooting all day long.

They all say the same thing "they are used more than any gun and break the list."

Here is how reliable a Glock should be.

http://www.theprepared.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=90&Item

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Funny, that is how reliable they should be, along with other guns.

Bring your Glock to the next match.

 

[Charles S]

Bring your Glock to the next match.

ROTFLMAO!!!! That is funny.

My _________ never fails.

I can shoot less than 0.________ inch groups any day.

Except when there is a match with pressure and witnesses.

 

[chieftain]

I have owned Glocks for a long time and have talked to allot of range owners these problems you mentioned in one competition don't happen over a full year of shooting all day long.

They all say the same thing "they are used more than any gun and break the list."

Here is how reliable a Glock should be.

I am pretty new to glocks, I have only owned 9 or so over the last 16 years. Never really cared for them or found them particularly more or less reliable than any other Quality Marque. The Primary problem was primarily the magazine for me. I seem to have solved that problem along with Glock and their, I believe, 6th generation magazines. (I was told it was the 6th generation otherwise they could be blowing smoke up my skirt.) For a recent example, I do know my Glock 19 does not like the 5th generation magazines at all. Just plumb refuses to feed from them reliably.

I have not carried a Glock for CCW, and just started competing with one this last summer. I replaced a 1911 in the competition mode, with a Glock 34 just to save money on ammo.

Now excluding the magazines, I have seen Glocks KB, I have seen them shear rails, I have seen them sheer barrel lugs, and most just broke trigger springs. I think they are pretty rugged, but no where near where the kool aid can be found.

I remember when the Ohio State Police were going to dump their Beretta 96's for lack of reliability. They had a shoot off.

IIRC, 15,000 rounds, cleaned every so many etc. They also had a subjective section. All entered weapons were either 40 S&W or 45acp.

The reliability stage was won IN ORDER by: (NUMBER OF ftf ARE APPROX BECAUSE OF MY MEMORY)

SIG 226 40S&W 4 FTF
SIG 229 40S&W 6 FTF
HK USP FULLsize 40S&W SIZE 11 FTF
GLOCK 22 13 FTF

And the list went on. Notable was that everyones 45acps were DNF. Everyones.

Doesn't really matter what you think or your opinion. In real endurance shoots, very few weapons are as reliable as folks think. Even their own guns.

What folks forget, that a hung mag, failure to lock back, that quick tap rack etc.... are all ftf's. Not blaming ammo Malfunctions now. DFO's (dump_______ Operators) matter in competition and real gun fighting too. And under the "gun" doesn't make working your weapon easier either.

I think operator error should count. If you apply the law of large numbers, operator error should be illuminating too. For instance, SIG's reputation for not locking back on the last round, isn't a weapons failure, it is almost exclusively an Operators error related to the position of the the slide lock/release.

If we had a week, we could talk about the problems with the 1911 too. Lots of them to discuss, and a substantial increase in potential operating errors too.

Fact is most folks don't know the weak points of the weapons they carry and shoot. Why because they choose, buy, shoot and justify what ever they have or like. We all do.

Go figure.

Fred

 

[JohnKSa]

I think operator error should count.

In this match a malfunction will be a malfunction. It will be classified as to type but that's about the extent of it. No excuses...

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Exactly. The reason for that is to squelch some of the more bizarre claims folks make, like "My gun has never malfunctioned, but I have had bad ammo, a bad mag spring, bad mag spring follower, bad recoil spring, I limp wristed the gun, but it won't lock back on empty and I have to hand cycle it for a new mag, etc. It sometimes just doesn't run sometimes, because something else has gone wrong."

It may be bad ammo, bad springs, bad mag, bad follower, limp wristing, failure to seat a mag properly, etc., but if you pull the trigger and the gun doesn't go bang, it has malfunctioned. If the gun doesn't cycle properly and lock back on empty, it has malfunctioned.

 

[redneck2]

One thing I missed...

what are the requirements for accuracy?? Most of the information posted relates to reliability.

 

[Littlemac]

Accuracy?

Who said anything about accuracy? I didn't see anything about accuracy. When did accuracy count?

What is going on here? LM

 

[redneck2]

Interesting read...

 

[Double Naught Spy]

One thing I missed...

what are the requirements for accuracy?? Most of the information posted relates to reliability.

Yes, you missed something, many somethings. The whole premise of the match pertained to reliability. I think there was the unwritten assumption that of the Glocks and 1911s in the match, they all could be shot with sufficient combat accuracy. We certainly did not anticipate people bringing wildly inaccurate guns to the match.

The premise of the original Glock vs. 1911 matches pertained to the whole rivalry between owners as to which platform was more reliable. This premise has remained as the basis of the matches. My match in April will simply expand this to include more platforms.

 

[mnw42]

My Remington 870TB has had over 250,000 through it. The guy a bought it off of shot a lot of trap ans those numbers are not unusual. To my knowledge it has never had a failure. Trap shooters can shoot a tremendous volume of ammo in a year. If you look through the ATA records you will find a few people who shoot over 1 million rounds a year!

I used to pull/score at a trap range and we had a few guys who would shoot 500+ birds a day. I've scored George Griggs more than a few times and he would shoot over 1000 birds a day if time permitted and he has been using the same gun for over 30 years.

I will say that volume is relative. One hundred thousand target loads for a pump gun or a break-open shotgun is not all that much.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Interesting, but we are dealing with semi-auto pistols, not shotguns.

 

[Grump]

PATTERNS in operator error can be a clue about fundamental design error on the "human factors engineering" side of life.

I'm a mere observer in this, won't have the free time and am spending all my ammo money next year in other pursuits. Even though I won't be there, I'd like to see other makes such as SIG and H&K added, so long as there are at least three of each. I understand that the number of shooters would go up and the logistics can get more crowded, but good planning and execution should make it work OK.

All this reminds me of a range report I posted a few years ago--a day out in the desert and guess which guns did NOT jam? The S&W "Smegma" and some other cheap gun! I gotta search and see if that was posted here or on the old TFL site. I don't remember many details except the total lockup of the AR-15 from a live round getting jammed up against the gas tube. Total design defect there, and not much that can be done about it because of the size of the casehead and the clearances between the charging handle, gas tube, bolt head, and bolt carrier gas intake.

I was met with disbelief and criticism for just reporting actual events.

 

[Jimmy Newman]

On the subject of other makes: while I have never specifically set out to do a competition like this, I did shoot about 1000 rounds with no cleaning through my Sig P220ST over two days a few years ago during a training course.

The gun passed, but I didn't - I failed to seat the magazine once. That was the only malf.

I suppose it's oranges to tangerines, since it was over two days and not one afternoon .

 

[jomi]

Pistol Model Factory # of rounds Cause for Failure
or Reloads
Glock 21 R 2 Slide lock with mag
Glock 17 R 2 Failure to Feed
Kimber Tac II F 6 Double Feed
Wilson 1911 F 7 Failure to Lock Back
Colt 1911 F 8 Failure to feed
Glock 22 F 8 Stove Pipe
Glock 17 R 8 Mag failure to lock in
Glock 35 R 49 Failure to Feed
10-8 NY 1911 F 279 Failure to Feed
Glock 17 F 344 No Slide lock on Empty
Glock 21 F 977 Failure to Lock Back
Glock 17 F 980 Sight off
Colt 1911 F 1008 Finished course of Fire
Glock 17 R 1073 Finished course of Fire
Glock 17L R 1167 Bad Primer

This is the first attempt at a summary. There were different scribes and different notations, and different note taking styles, so please keep in mind this is subject to correction.

Interesting Huh. LM

Typed in the block it looks good but the preview sucks

Why did the GLOCK 17L not finish when it even had 1167 rounds fired? I'm confused

 

[Double Naught Spy]

The shooter did not complete the course of fire before his gun malfunctioned. The COF was set up so that it required probably around 900-950 target hits with an expected 5-10% miss rate to push the shooter's total to 1000 or more. Note the Colt with 1008 rounds. He was a better shooter.

Something to keep in mind is that match was designed with the idea of determining a singular winner. The winner would be the person go got the furthest in the match's COF before failure if all guns failed before the end of the COF. If more than one gun completed the COF, the one with the lowest round count was determined to be the winner. By doing the match in that manner, it makes it a bit more competitive. This is compared to the match I will host in April 2008 where the COF is just 1000 rounds and the goal isn't to find a winner, but to document how various guns perform over that 1000 rounds. There will be less of a competitive thrill in the match, I am afraid, save for bragging rights and good-natured ribbing.

 

[Harley Quinn]

Pilot error I am reminded of it constantly. I watch folks shoot and see it all the time.

Put the gun in a vice and shoot it with a mechanical aparatus.

That is a test of the firearm, not this thread.

 

[Howard Roark]

3 million round DHS test:

The technical evaluation of the proposals included a comprehensive handgun test protocol involving a rigorous battery of environmental, reliability, durability, and other tests. Approximately three million rounds of ammunition were fired through 690 handguns of 46 different models during the testing, which took almost four months to complete. Aside from the actual live firing, additional testing was conducted through laboratory analysis and armory inspections. In all, each model was evaluated against more than 50 characteristics before arriving at a technical rating. This data was used in conjunction with past performance and pricing information to select the winning contractors.

http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=779
http://www.dhs.gov/xnews/releases/press_release_0493.shtm

Each pistol had over 4000 rounds fired through it. Each manufacturer had several models submitted for testing. Glock failed to complete the tests.
Sig and H&K ruled.

These tests were performed by professional gunsmith/shooters under strict enviromental conditions.

 

[Harley Quinn]

That test was done over 3 years ago. I have bought 2 Glocks since then.
None of the others. Some firearms fit some of us and work very well.
That is about all I can say.

Maybe the fix was in

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Put the gun in a vice and shoot it with a mechanical aparatus.

That is a test of the firearm, not this thread.

Right, the thread isn't testing anything at all. It is a discussion.

Shooting via mechanical apparati provides you with a theoretical data about how guns perform in mechanical apparati, a simulation, if you will. The next issue is one of how well the gun will perform in the hands of real people. In other words, mechanical apparati take much of the human factor out of the testing which is interesting because most guns were not designed or intended to be fired from mechanical apparati, but by people. Both methods of firing provide information about the guns, but each has its own shortcomings and biases as well.

PATTERNS in operator error can be a clue about fundamental design error on the "human factors engineering" side of life.

Right. In fact, this is part of the reason that the field of ergonomics has come about. Folks were working with tools that mechanically were capable of doing the job but were not user friendly, resulting in fatigued users who could not then complete jobs at a rate comparable to the tools being used, not complete them consistently satisfactorily, etc.

I'm a mere observer in this, won't have the free time and am spending all my ammo money next year in other pursuits. Even though I won't be there, I'd like to see other makes such as SIG and H&K added, so long as there are at least three of each. I understand that the number of shooters would go up and the logistics can get more crowded, but good planning and execution should make it work OK.

While what you say is true, you haven't ever run a match have you? I take it from your post, that because of a design defect in having an overly long thread has resulted in you missing some of the previous information. Just how do you propose that I get the sample sizes you wanted (3 of each make, but oddly not of each model)? Keep in mind that participants come to these matches at their own expense, on inclination, and only if the match date matches their personal schedules.

 

[Littlemac]

DNS Have you filled your roster? LM

 

[softmentor]

stink I wish you weren't so far away. I'd love to let you see an HK USP 45 go the distance flawlessly. ::smiles his jolly smile:: not to mention just all that fun, blasting with a bunch of other folks, going at targets fast and furious. Bang!
Gotta try one of these in SoCal-AZ-SoNev area.
Loads of fun!

I know, I know ... run you're own then. and You're excused

 

[Double Naught Spy]

DNS Have you filled your roster? LM

Nope. Based on your matches and the number of folks who say they will come, number that confirm they are coming, and then the number that actually arrived, then there are still several spots open. I expect several folks to drop and some to add between now and the match.

 

[rdhood]

It has been a great thread. It is the most posted Competition thread so far at THR and in the top 10 for views of a Competition thread. Now if we can just have that much actual interest at the match...

I agree. I am new to semi-auto pistols (8 months). After reading on the net how everybody else, everywhere else, with every kind of gun shoots all day long without a single mishap, I was a bit disappointed that I couldn't seem to get through 100 rounds without some kind of mishap (failure to feed, failure to fire, dropped mag, etc).

This one has been a real eye-opener about what it takes to make a gun go bang every single time, how very few people can truly make that happen, and how everyone else (most everyone, actually) just lies about it.

edit: maybe "lies" is too harsh a word. How about "ignores the truth", or "deceives themselves"?

 

[akanotken]

Suggestions ...

DNS, I'd be interested, and I travel to Texas pretty routinely on business (Austin, but I could drive ... In fact I drove to tulsa one trip to catch a football game but that's another story). Way to early for me to commit. In fact, I'm going to see if there's interest in doing a similar match here in VA ...

I do have a browning HP and a p99 that never fail ...

I do have one humble suggestion. Keep score, and make that score the time + misses (like IDPA does) for simplicity. Don't care about the actual value of the misses, only that they count. A little stress is needed to see how the gun/shooter combo will perform in a bad situation. And valuing the hits will keep the shooter focuse on his target. It's not real life, but the buzzer goes off and people watch and score and it makes some get nervous and other's brains turn off (me ). I know it makes for a long day, but I do have suggestions on how to move that along.....

oh yea, suggestion #2 ... invest in an uplula or two for this match ....

good things run in 3's? Suggestion number 3. I'd suggest keeping the .22's in a seperate match. They aren't really the focus of what you are trying to do, they runs dirtier than mud, and are notorius for failing to ignite. Likely more trouble than it's worth.