Going for an AK. Let us debate the merits and disadvantages of 5.45x39 and 7.62x39

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if i had a choice between two AKs.. and i had to go into a gunfight i would take the 5.45x39mm, the longer bullet does make a big difference in this case, and the bullet which by design does tumble will do more damage on impact, its more lethal of a cartridge at any range with that tumbling effect.. but also retains more kinetic energy after 250-300 yards...

i had the same questions before, but decided on a bulgarian ak74 5.45mm for the reasons suggested.. i still want an old school wood furniture AKM-47 in 7.62, but the 5.45 is definitely the first choice for me
 
Tis true. Studs, thick enough drywall, insulation.

Studs? So how does one count on the round hitting a stud? Statistically it is far more likely not to. And thick enough? They only make it up to 5/8".

Regardless, wolf ammo will go through 12 sheets of sheetrock and all the way through a full jug of water. Even if your your walls are double sheet rocked that still sounds pretty lethal to me.

http://theboxotruth.com/docs/bot4.htm
 
Go with 7.62x39.

With the purposes you stated, that is the best option IMO. Plus its cheap and readily available everywhere. Why would you want to go with the smaller 5.45?

The only minor downside to 7.62 is decrease accuracy which can be remedied based on your rifle platform. Btw I have an 7.62AK and I love it!

If I were to go with the 5.45, I'd just get a 5.56 AR15...
 
5.45 7N6-PS is a noted penetrator.
Unlike commercial 7.62, the surplus 7N6-PS has a steel core.

The blunt, mild steel core inside the 5.45 isn't an armor piercing core, but it does penetrate better than a commercial lead core.
Author David Fortier was able to get a 5.45 bullet to penetrate both sides of a US military Kevlar helmet at 300 yards.
I haven't seen any wall penetration tests, but like most all center fire rifle rounds I suspect it'll sail right through any interior wall and probably through any exterior wall except block or brick.

On the AR-15.com site a poster has posted his results shooting Georgia deer with 7N6-PS and he says it's totally effective and a real killer.

It really comes down to whatever you think is best.
 
Studs? So how does one count on the round hitting a stud? Statistically it is far more likely not to. And thick enough? They only make it up to 5/8".

Regardless, wolf ammo will go through 12 sheets of sheetrock and all the way through a full jug of water. Even if your your walls are double sheet rocked that still sounds pretty lethal to me.

http://theboxotruth.com/docs/bot4.htm
We don't rely on stats here. Methinks you need to do some searching for the penetration characteristics of different rounds in these two calibers, or plain shoot them for yourself. 762 is the better penetrator here, and the 545 ain't gettin it done in the punch at close range department. I based that on several shots at 3/8" steel plate, jugs, wet pack, and even trees. The 545 does tremendous damage, but the 762 bores holes. Depends on what you wanna do. I don't see 545 or 556 making clean holes through average, spec'd walls. But, for the sake of not arguing, believe what you will. You don't listen to folks on the web.

Me, I'm partial to the 47, 762x39 mainly because of availability.
 
We don't rely on stats here.

We don't? Call it common sense then that a round is much more likely to miss a stud than hit one.

Methinks you need to do some searching for the penetration characteristics of different rounds in these two calibers, or plain shoot them for yourself. 762 is the better penetrator here, and the 545 ain't gettin it done in the punch at close range department. I based that on several shots at 3/8" steel plate, jugs, wet pack, and even trees. The 545 does tremendous damage, but the 762 bores holes. Depends on what you wanna do. I don't see 545 or 556 making clean holes through average, spec'd walls.

In post #25 you said "tis true" in reference to this statement: "The flip side of the barrier penetration issue is that the 5.45 is ideal for home defense, as it is unlikely to make it through double drywall (much less studs and brick) and still be lethal on the other side." Now you're trying to divert to the 7.62 penetrating more but that's not what was being discussed. 5.45 will zip right through sheetrock and kill the hell out of anything on the other side. Funny thing is i did spend the weekend shooting 5/8" steel plates with my 74 and it zipped right through them like they weren't even there and embedded deep into the tree behind.

But, for the sake of not arguing, believe what you will. You don't listen to folks on the web

No, what i don't do is believe improbable claims without evidence.
 
We don't? Call it common sense then that a round is much more likely to miss a stud than hit one.



In post #25 you said "tis true" in reference to this statement: "The flip side of the barrier penetration issue is that the 5.45 is ideal for home defense, as it is unlikely to make it through double drywall (much less studs and brick) and still be lethal on the other side." Now you're trying to divert to the 7.62 penetrating more but that's not what was being discussed. 5.45 will zip right through sheetrock and kill the hell out of anything on the other side. Funny thing is i did spend the weekend shooting 5/8" steel plates with my 74 and it zipped right through them like they weren't even there and embedded deep into the tree behind.



No, what i don't do is believe improbable claims without evidence.
I trust what I test, not old guys posting videos. Granted, you don't see what I do or shoot, so that's understandable. But, don't tell me you don't believe web-folk then post a link.

If you read, I also stated it is important to decide what your application is in choosing a caliber. I don't believe in rifles for HD, but have studied plenty on the effects of popular rounds indoors. For MY purposes, opinion based, 762 is king. But, that's mainly for hunting.

I'm glad the 545 suits you. I'm not knocking it, nor advocating. As I also stated, choose to believe what you will. I don't believe 545 "zipping through" 5/8" steel, but I wasn't there. Guess I'll take your word for it. Me, never had it go through 3/8" mild steel at 50 yards, but you weren't there. Bummer.
 
I trust what I test, not old guys posting videos. Granted, you don't see what I do or shoot, so that's understandable. But, don't tell me you don't believe web-folk then post a link.

For the second time, i don't believe incredible claims without evidence. The idea that a 5.45 will be stopped by a normal sheetrock wall is an incredible claim. The link i provided shows evidence that it will go through 12 sheets and a jug of water.

The metal i was shooting was of unknown make and type. It is perfectly reasonable that hardened steel of the same thickness may stop the round. But performance on steel of any type at 50 yards provides no indication of what a round will do against a sheetrock wall at home defense distances.
 
For the second time, i don't believe incredible claims without evidence. The idea that a 5.45 will be stopped by a normal sheetrock wall is an incredible claim. The link i provided shows evidence that it will go through 12 sheets and a jug of water.

The metal i was shooting was of unknown make and type. It is perfectly reasonable that hardened steel of the same thickness may stop the round. But performance on steel of any type at 50 yards provides no indication of what a round will do against a sheetrock wall at home defense distances.
I used 3/8" mild steel, heat treated. 50 yards, no go. Absolutely right, it gives no indicator of what it does at HD range. I've better weapons for than that.

As for the link, it shows one type of ammo. A plausible test usually shows (which they did) differences in caliber for gauging what to expect from different powered rounds (as in pistol rounds of varied size and weight vs rifle), but also different bullet weights and design in EACH platform. They used Wolf, no more, no less. This doesn't prove much, as a consumer, father, and homeowner I don't used FMJs. I don't advocate their use for HD, but that's preference. I use frangible bullets in the weapons I employ for defensive use, better for all involved. I think for HD, IMO, I'd have no qualms using a frangible 545...if I used a rifle for HD.

But, I don't, I use them for targets, vermin, hunting. For an Ak platform, I find the 762 round fun, soft shooting, and adequate as a deer rifle. But, HD gun it is not.
 
I have both and I prefer the 5.45 for general plinking and MOTC(minute of tin can) accuracy because of the lighter recoil. The 7.62 is not a problem but I just prefer the 5.45. I don't shoot either one outside 100 yards though I know they are more than capable. I buy ammo online for the 5.45 because the lgs is crazy. I can buy7.62 anywhere relatively cheaply.
 
I have a Yugo underfolder in 7.62, but I eventually will get a Tantal in 5.45 to join it in the safe. If you will hunt deer with it get the 7.62, in all other scenarios you described you could happily use either round with slight advantages for one or the other. It sounds like you kinda want the 5.45 more but you know that round is marginal for deer. If you already have a deer rifle get the 5.45 and order a pile of ammo.
 
Tis true. Studs, thick enough drywall, insulation.

How many feet of drywall? Or does the bullet truly fragment into birdshot upon hitting cardboard? If true, that's awesome, and I'd love to get one for HD, safest option I've heard of. Seems like it wouldn't penetrate more than an inch or two into flesh, though. I recall modern BB guns can penetrate 1/2" of drywall (don't ask), surely the 5.45 has at least twice as much going for it?

TCB
 
I know 5.45 fmj Tula will go completely through a 4-6" diameter pine tree with no problem. It will not go through a 18" diameter sweetgum but neither will 7.62, .223 or 30-06. I don't think a piece of dry wall and a stud would even slow any of these rounds down considerably but for about $6 I will try it out when I get the chance.
 
Why would you want to go with the smaller 5.45?

Why would I? I did. I liked the cheaper ammo, the better accuracy and longer reach, less recoil, lighter ammo, more devastating wounds. Only disadvantages is the ammo isn't commonly available locally, mags are expensive, and the round doesn't penetrate cover as well.
 
How many feet of drywall? Or does the bullet truly fragment into birdshot upon hitting cardboard? If true, that's awesome, and I'd love to get one for HD, safest option I've heard of. Seems like it wouldn't penetrate more than an inch or two into flesh, though. I recall modern BB guns can penetrate 1/2" of drywall (don't ask), surely the 5.45 has at least twice as much going for it?

TCB
You guys are only talking about drywall. I don't care about statistics. If there is a statistic as to how likely you are to miss a stud, then there is one that states the probability of hitting one? Not all shots are taken in the home dead nuts flush and perpendicular to a wall; some are angled, in many directions. Now, your 5/8" drywall is now thicker, you're MORE likely to hit wood, and in most homes, your round is traversing insulation. Doesn't sound like much? Consider the density of that, the likely hood of hitting one or maybe even two studs depending on your position to your target, and the behavior a bullet MAY have once it leaves the muzzle, happens to miss an assailant (unfortunate, especially since then I REALLY doubt it's going through the BG then plowing on through an entire wall. Unless this is a ramshackle hovel down in Colombia, dont see it) then hits your wall. If your bullet hits perpendicular to the wall, misses a stud, then sure. Probably gonna penetrate. But, shooting a Wolf fmj for home defense when it has the ability to traverse 12 sheets of drywall is a poor decision to start. That's why I use frangible ammo, and no, Im gullible but not stupid. Show me the vid or pics on more than one occasion where even a modern .177 bb went through 1/2" of drywall. Prove it, and I'll say it is so.

I'd have liked to seen someone test the Hornady 545 ballistic tip in not only gel, but a similar test into a faux wall. My concern is bullet design, and if FMJ or the 7N6 was my ONLY 545 ammo on hand, no I wouldn't use it.
 
I would go with 7.62 since I like to stock up on mags and 5.45 mags are $$$$$ these days.
 
You guys are only talking about drywall. I don't care about statistics. If there is a statistic as to how likely you are to miss a stud, then there is one that states the probability of hitting one?

Yes there is. It's quite simple. You simply put the distance between studs over the width of a stud. For example, a stud is 2". If i recall they are generally spread 24" apart. Therefore the probability of missing a stud is 12 to 1. The chance of hitting one is 1 to 12.

Not all shots are taken in the home dead nuts flush and perpendicular to a wall; some are angled, in many directions. Now, your 5/8" drywall is now thicker, you're MORE likely to hit wood, and in most homes, your round is traversing insulation. Doesn't sound like much? Consider the density of that, the likely hood of hitting one or maybe even two studs depending on your position to your target, and the behavior a bullet MAY have once it leaves the muzzle, happens to miss an assailant (unfortunate, especially since then I REALLY doubt it's going through the BG then plowing on through an entire wall.

If you hit the sheetrock at an angle, yes it increases the distance. But nowhere near being equal to 12 sheets. And yes, it increases the chance of hitting a stud buy by how much depends on angle. A stud however is not going to stop the round. Either way are you proposing one should make such a decision based on the best possible scenario?

I agree, between a FMJ 5.45 and a FMJ 7.62 the latter will penetrate more. But don't kid yourself into thinking the 5.45 will not be extremely lethal if it hits somebody on the other side of a wall regardless of what angle you fire from. I'm not saying don't use one for home defense or that there are worse options either. Just be be realistic about what could happen.
 
I based what I said on the box o truth test on the ability of various cartridges to penetrate a certain amount of layers of drywall. The round that penetrated the least was 55 grain 5.56, which fragmented after one double layer of drywall. The 5.45 is pretty close to a ballistic twin of that load. If anything, it destabilizes more quickly through barriers, because of the air pocket. Fragments of bullet CAN certainly be lethal, but are not LIKELY to be. Certainly not as much as a fully stabilized, barely slowed round, like 7.62 would be. FYI, penetrating steel is a completely different matter than penetrating interior walls.
 
I use the 5.45 because it penetrates less wall like 5.56 where buckshot and pistol rounds penetrate more.
 
Yes there is. It's quite simple. You simply put the distance between studs over the width of a stud. For example, a stud is 2". If i recall they are generally spread 24" apart. Therefore the probability of missing a stud is 12 to 1. The chance of hitting one is 1 to 12.



If you hit the sheetrock at an angle, yes it increases the distance. But nowhere near being equal to 12 sheets. And yes, it increases the chance of hitting a stud buy by how much depends on angle. A stud however is not going to stop the round. Either way are you proposing one should make such a decision based on the best possible scenario?

I agree, between a FMJ 5.45 and a FMJ 7.62 the latter will penetrate more. But don't kid yourself into thinking the 5.45 will not be extremely lethal if it hits somebody on the other side of a wall regardless of what angle you fire from. I'm not saying don't use one for home defense or that there are worse options either. Just be be realistic about what could happen.
There's always consequences. That much, we can agree on.
 
For what it's worth David Fortier says the 5.45 7N6-PS penetrates less then the US 5.56 M855 round.
He writes that the Russian's say the 5.45 will penetrate a 5mm steel plate at 350 meters, but they don't state the type or hardness of the plate.

The US Marine Firepower Division at Quantico in the 1980's reported the 5.45 penetrated slightly better then the 5.56 M193 round on steel plate.

In Chinese tests of the 5.45 and the US SS109 the 5.45 was only able to penetrate a 3.5mm hardened steel plate at 640 meters 4 out of 22 tries.
The US SS109 was able to penetrate 21 out of 21 tries.
 
People, ammunition selection is important. For the 7.62x39, several distinctions have to be made. First, among military ammunition types, there are two variants we must separate; the original M43 Russian ball cartridge and the M67 Yugo ball round. The original M43 was known to be a good penetrator of light foliage and intermediate barriers, but possessed poor terminal effects, as noted by Fackler and others. This is because it penetrated for 8 inches or more before tumbling. The later M67 Yugo ball round was introduced with an air pocket in the nose that effected much faster tumbling characteristics, often with 4 or 5 inches of penetration. Also as noted by Fackler, the Yugo round is much more terminally effective than the M43 round, and sacrifices little for penetration in most barrier types. I've seen the effects of the Yugo round on small deer from a Yugo SKS and it is devastating.
I am not sure about the newer Military Classic line, but the old 122 gr Wolf FMJ in the black boxes was built and performed very similar to the Yugo M67 ball round.
Some of the JHP for the 7.62x39 were known to be very inconsistent. They would either perform like FMJs or fragment violently, and you never knew what you'd get. One exception was the Uly 8m3 round. This was a consistent and devastating terminal performer, providing fragmentation, expansion, and penetration identical for home defense.
Then there are the newer rounds, the most notable being the Hornady SST round. These can bring the potential out of the round while offering better accuracy in most rifles than the Russian ammunition. There are also some JSPs out there with good reputation for lethality on medium game, though I've never bought these being quite as effective as the .30-30.

The 7.62x39 is, IMO, the finest intermediate powered assault rifle round ever, bar none, period. There are some, like the Grendel and the SPC, that might perform better at range, but never reached the popularity or availability of the 7.62x39, nor its economy. The 5.45 and 5.56 have flatter trajectories, less recoil, and allow more ammunition to be carried, but sacrifice performance for this convenience. The 5.56 in particular has always been known as a marginally adequate performer.
I find it interesting that people give the smaller caliber rounds a longer effective range. While they might have flatter trajectories, and may be easier to hit with at longer ranges, I wouldn't give them longer effective ranges. Sighted in at 200 yards, the 7.62x39 125 gr load leaving the muzzle at around 2300 fps, will drop a foot and a half at 300 yards. At that range, it still has the mass, velocity, energy, and momentum of the .357 Mag at the muzzle. That means aim COM out to 300 yards, with the lethality to take someone out of the fight. At contact distances, the ball round will go through a cinder block or a foot of living, standing fir, and still be lethal.
For comparison the 5.56 is a poor penetrator of intermediate barriers at any range and is looking at around 2100 fps from a bullet of half the mass at 300 yards. That is right around the velocity so-called hydro-static shock ceases to damage the elastic tissues of the human body, and the .22 caliber, 62 gr bullet just does not have much going for it without the velocity.
Drop is consistent because gravity is consistent. So you can give any of them an optic with a BDC, like the ACOG, and increase hit probability to much farther than average infantry firefight distances. It's much more difficult to make the smaller bullet perform like a bigger bullet once it gets to its target. If I can't have an M1A chambered for a real 7.62mm, give me an AK. I'll hold my sector all day long. Bring it.
 
Studs are generally 16" apart. You just lost a third of your stated stats.

Ah, so now its 8 to 1 chance of hitting a stud that won't stop it anyways. Don't think that changes things much.

I know commercial, which is generally 24".
 
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