Good C&R Pistol for pocket carry
- Thread starter RS3RS
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RS3RS; I'm still confused, C&R status is a federal classification having to do with firearms available for purchase with a C&R license. I still can't find anything in the Missouri CCW law that addresses a seperate C&R classification as to firearms allowed to be carried. Help me out here, point me toward the section of the law that covers it. Also you never said which state you have a CCW/CHL in.
Cane -
Its the C&R eligible firearms that are allowed to be *purchased* without the Missouri Permit to Acquire, i'm reposting the relevant legal information below, from one of my prior posts.
This C&R eligibility (which is addressed in Missouri law, seen above, with that definition, saying nothing about federal C&R licenses, how its acquired, etc. Just defining this class of firearms, and exempting them from the Permit to Acquire).
The actual carrying is an entire different set of law. Essentially, if you have a valid carry permit from any state Missouri recognizes, it flies in the MO legal system. So, a Maine Out of State Permit, which requires you to be 18, is totally viable in Missouri, as a Utah or Florida permit would be (which are 21+, have better terms, last longer and are generally cheaper. Honestly, theres almost no reason for a Missouri resident to get an in state permit).
As a sidenote - by following this law, as I understand it (again - I'm NOT a lawyer, nor have i consulted one), you are working totally within the system. HOWEVER, i would fully expect complications and misunderstandings with law enforcement which could be a hassle to work out/convince them/get them to actually read the law.
Again, hopefully this is helpful/will shed some light.
Matt Beck
Its the C&R eligible firearms that are allowed to be *purchased* without the Missouri Permit to Acquire, i'm reposting the relevant legal information below, from one of my prior posts.
This C&R eligibility (which is addressed in Missouri law, seen above, with that definition, saying nothing about federal C&R licenses, how its acquired, etc. Just defining this class of firearms, and exempting them from the Permit to Acquire).
The actual carrying is an entire different set of law. Essentially, if you have a valid carry permit from any state Missouri recognizes, it flies in the MO legal system. So, a Maine Out of State Permit, which requires you to be 18, is totally viable in Missouri, as a Utah or Florida permit would be (which are 21+, have better terms, last longer and are generally cheaper. Honestly, theres almost no reason for a Missouri resident to get an in state permit).
As a sidenote - by following this law, as I understand it (again - I'm NOT a lawyer, nor have i consulted one), you are working totally within the system. HOWEVER, i would fully expect complications and misunderstandings with law enforcement which could be a hassle to work out/convince them/get them to actually read the law.
Again, hopefully this is helpful/will shed some light.
Matt Beck
ambidextrous1
Member
Yes, Makarov!
It's available in .380 and the slightly hotter 9x18 Makarov. You'll have an easier time finding the .380 ammo.
The Mak is reliable and plenty accurate for concealed carry, but as others have noted, a bit large by today's standards; but I can't think of a better choice in the C&R field. This will put you 'in the game' for a couple of years until you qualify for a more modern pistol.
It's available in .380 and the slightly hotter 9x18 Makarov. You'll have an easier time finding the .380 ammo.
The Mak is reliable and plenty accurate for concealed carry, but as others have noted, a bit large by today's standards; but I can't think of a better choice in the C&R field. This will put you 'in the game' for a couple of years until you qualify for a more modern pistol.
Zundfolge
Member
If you order your ammo online you can find 9x18 a lot cheaper than the .380.
In addition, I don't believe any of the C&R eligible Maks are available in .380.
chaim
Member
Sounds like a strawman purchase to me. Did you give your relative the money? If so, definately strawman. Did he/she pick it up with the intention of giving you the gun? If so, possibly strawman.
So the C&R part of the origional post only had to do to the purchase of a pistol, ie: a C&R pistol didn't need a permit (so to speak) from the state. With that in mind, our poster, RS3RS could have his "older relative" make him a gift of a (insert favorate pistol name here) probably cheaper than the C&R 1911. Since there is nothing in the CCW statute specifically addressing the carry of a C&R pistol, why limit yourself to one. Since RS3RS hasn't replied to my questyions, altho he has been active in other threads, I think we might have been fed a line of ++++++.
Lou22
Member
Someone please tell me - what is a C&R gun? And what is different about it where an 18 year old can buy (not that there is anything wrong with that!) Is it an older gun?
Lou
Lou
Cane, the issue is this -
In Missouri, ANY transfer of a handgun (FFL, private, gift) requires a Permit to Acquire from the reciever, who must be 21 to get the permit. However, C&R guns are exempted from this permit.
So, if one is under the age of 21, the only legal way (short of trying to play with the 1 year statute of limitations on the crime - NOT ADVISABLE) to possess a handgun if you are under the age of 21 is a C&R handgun.
So, thats where the C&R bit is vital.
In Missouri, ANY transfer of a handgun (FFL, private, gift) requires a Permit to Acquire from the reciever, who must be 21 to get the permit. However, C&R guns are exempted from this permit.
So, if one is under the age of 21, the only legal way (short of trying to play with the 1 year statute of limitations on the crime - NOT ADVISABLE) to possess a handgun if you are under the age of 21 is a C&R handgun.
So, thats where the C&R bit is vital.
Springfield_1911SS
Member
excuse me for being a noob but whats C&R
i live in Illinois so we have no carry at all
i live in Illinois so we have no carry at all
Matt, I understand what you are saying, however the origional post implied that C&Rs were specificially authorized as CCWs, maybe I misread. However I think the origional poster RS3RS fed us a line, got caught when he admitted to breaking federal law, and has now disappeared from this thread.
C&R stands for Curio and Relic.
Its a definition firearms that can be purchased with a type 03 FFL "Collectors license".
The federal definition is any firearm manufactured over 50 years ago, or any firearm on the ATF's list of guns that qualify for deriving most of their value from rarity, historical significance, etc.
Under Missouri Law, specific to the exemption for the Permit to Acquire, they are defined as such
"Curio or relic firearm is any firearm deriving value as a collectible weapon due to its unique design, ignition system, operation or at least fifty years old, associated with a historical event, renown personage or major war"
Essentially the same as the federal definiton, and i think the ATF's list applies.
Basically, is either an old gun, or a gun that is sufficiently rare or unique. An example of guns on the list for rarity, even though they don't make the 50 year mark, would be things like Yugoslavian SKS's, because Yugoslavia no longer exists, or East German and Russian Military specific Makarov's, because the Soviet Union is no longer around.
Hopefully that helps define C&R for your guys.
Matt Beck
Its a definition firearms that can be purchased with a type 03 FFL "Collectors license".
The federal definition is any firearm manufactured over 50 years ago, or any firearm on the ATF's list of guns that qualify for deriving most of their value from rarity, historical significance, etc.
Under Missouri Law, specific to the exemption for the Permit to Acquire, they are defined as such
"Curio or relic firearm is any firearm deriving value as a collectible weapon due to its unique design, ignition system, operation or at least fifty years old, associated with a historical event, renown personage or major war"
Essentially the same as the federal definiton, and i think the ATF's list applies.
Basically, is either an old gun, or a gun that is sufficiently rare or unique. An example of guns on the list for rarity, even though they don't make the 50 year mark, would be things like Yugoslavian SKS's, because Yugoslavia no longer exists, or East German and Russian Military specific Makarov's, because the Soviet Union is no longer around.
Hopefully that helps define C&R for your guys.
Matt Beck
Aye, perhaps.
However, your reply about the gift of a modern pistol doesn't fit, as its considerably more illegal than the hint of a strawman purchase (which, i personally don't agree with. If he can legally possess the handgun (a C&R handgun in Missouri), and isn't a felon/minor, i don't think that this situation *should* be illegal. Is it? Maybe, but probably not convictably.).
In Missouri the C&R handgun would fly, a modern handgun in possession of an 18, 19 or 20 year old, or someone of any age who didn't have a valid Permit to Acquire on record for the gun (Woo registration!) would definately be illegal.
Matt Beck
However, your reply about the gift of a modern pistol doesn't fit, as its considerably more illegal than the hint of a strawman purchase (which, i personally don't agree with. If he can legally possess the handgun (a C&R handgun in Missouri), and isn't a felon/minor, i don't think that this situation *should* be illegal. Is it? Maybe, but probably not convictably.).
In Missouri the C&R handgun would fly, a modern handgun in possession of an 18, 19 or 20 year old, or someone of any age who didn't have a valid Permit to Acquire on record for the gun (Woo registration!) would definately be illegal.
Matt Beck
Manedwolf
member
However, being underage even with the C&R loophole could still get you into a world of hurt with cops.
Say you're pulled over for some reason, they find the gun. They're NOT going to read the manufacturing date. They're going to see the ubiquitous and cultural-icon profile of a 1911 .45 caliber handgun, look at your birthdate, throw you in the back of a cruiser and tow your car. Probably arrest, too, for "illegal possession."
Yeah, you'd be aquitted, but might have to pay for a lawyer or other costs. You'd get the gun back if they haven't "lost" it.
Say you're pulled over for some reason, they find the gun. They're NOT going to read the manufacturing date. They're going to see the ubiquitous and cultural-icon profile of a 1911 .45 caliber handgun, look at your birthdate, throw you in the back of a cruiser and tow your car. Probably arrest, too, for "illegal possession."
Yeah, you'd be aquitted, but might have to pay for a lawyer or other costs. You'd get the gun back if they haven't "lost" it.
Matt, "strawman purchases" are very illegial, Federal offense, Felony, 10 yrs in "Club Fed" and big fine. I can assure you that BATF takes them very serious. In addition you should read the fine print on the 4473 and what you sign when you apply for a C&R license.
Well, C&R license is totally separate from the Missouri exemption.
The Missouri law exempts them as a class of firearms, from the PTA - doesn't have anything to do with a federal C&R license, its just a definition of a class of handguns.
And I know strawman purchases are a big federal no-no (and, again, disagree that is should be, if the reciever of the firearm is eligible to own it, but thats a different debate), but i also know it is completely legal to purchase a firearm as a gift.
Quoted from the ATF's website, on a parent purchasing a firearm as a gift FOR a MINOR. I also know it is generally legal to purcashe a firearm and give it as a gift outside the family, as long as the person recieving the gun is eligible to own it (not a felon, not a minor in a state where possession would be illegal, no restraining orders or domestic abuse, etc)
Matt Beck
The Missouri law exempts them as a class of firearms, from the PTA - doesn't have anything to do with a federal C&R license, its just a definition of a class of handguns.
And I know strawman purchases are a big federal no-no (and, again, disagree that is should be, if the reciever of the firearm is eligible to own it, but thats a different debate), but i also know it is completely legal to purchase a firearm as a gift.
Quoted from the ATF's website, on a parent purchasing a firearm as a gift FOR a MINOR. I also know it is generally legal to purcashe a firearm and give it as a gift outside the family, as long as the person recieving the gun is eligible to own it (not a felon, not a minor in a state where possession would be illegal, no restraining orders or domestic abuse, etc)
Matt Beck
Also, i agree with Maned Wolf, the police won't be aware of the subtleties of this law (most people who are knowledgable won't), and i'd EXPECT harrassment, and probably arrest and possibly charges if you were pulled over or otherwise caught with the gun while <21.
I'm not advising this, just saying that it is technically legal, as far as i can tell.
Matt Beck
I'm not advising this, just saying that it is technically legal, as far as i can tell.
Matt Beck
Calm down dude, I have a life, I can't spend all of my time in this thread looking for replies. Just haven't seen them all yet.
If you're going to argue on this subject, or say that you've been fed "a line of ++++++++" - at least set down and read MO state law before accusing me of being full of it. I've done my research, you haven't, and you don't even live in the state of Missouri. No, a person couldn't give me a non C&R handgun. That's a class A misdemeanor. The loop-hole specifically says curio or relic firearms.
You can read it for yourself if you'd like:
http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C500-599/5710000080.HTM
Again, I have gone no-where. Just give me a chance to reply before saying I broke any law. I have broken NO laws, federal OR state. If you still believe I have, I politely request you to cite which law I have broken. Otherwise, saying that I have is simply ignorant.
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Ignort I may be and I agree that I don't live in MO. However you are the one who first said that you bought a C&R 1911 and then later said an "older relative" bought it for you and gave it to you as a gift. Which is it? Either way you lied in a post, and if any part of a statement is a lie, then the whole statement is a lie. Do you have a C&R license and buy the 1911 yourself, or did an "older relative" buy it for you? If the former, you lied, If the latter, then you lied in your first post and are admitting on an open forum that you broke a federal law by participating in a "strawman" purchase. Which is it?Cane, i reiterate.
Buying or recieving a firearm as a gift is legal, as long as your are legally eligible to possess the weapon.
Secondly, again, the Missouri law uses C&R as a definition, it doens't mean he needed a license to purchase it. It just means he did not need a MO Permit to Acquire to obtain the pistol. It is COMPLETELY separate from the Federal C&R license, the only connection being the definition of the C&R guns.
Matt Beck
Buying or recieving a firearm as a gift is legal, as long as your are legally eligible to possess the weapon.
Secondly, again, the Missouri law uses C&R as a definition, it doens't mean he needed a license to purchase it. It just means he did not need a MO Permit to Acquire to obtain the pistol. It is COMPLETELY separate from the Federal C&R license, the only connection being the definition of the C&R guns.
Matt Beck
Matt, you aren't reading my posts, my question to RS3RS was, did he buy the 1911 from Gunbroker as he said in 2 posts, or did his "older relative" buy it for him in a "strawman" purchase. For him to buy it he would have to have a C&R license which as I recall requires the licensee to be at least 21 years/old. For his "older relative" to buy it for him is a prohibited "strawman purchase". In addition he implys that he has an our of state CCW (Maine?) that allows him to carry a C&R handgun in MO. He hasn't answered those two questions, of course he doesn't have to. On the other hand you are quick to respond to my posts, and your posts are similiar to RS3RS responses. Are you and he one and the same?
Definately different people, I, unfrontuantely, don't have a life, and have found this topic interesting.
Your not reading my posts. The C&R license is completely different from the piece of Missouri law he and I are referring to.
Again, under Missouri law, C&R guns are exempt from the PTA, having nothing to do with acquiring them with a C&R license, they are just a class of firearms, with different purchase/acquisition conditions under Missouri law.
Possibly, again, don't know the specifics. However, it is legal to purchase a firearm with the intention of giving it as a gift.
That would work. Missouri fully recognizes Maine permits, it both their resident and non-resident capacity. A Missouri resident can apply for a Maine, or a Florida, or a Utah Non-Resident CCW permit, and Missouri recognizes it as a legal endorsement to carry.
Matt Beck
Your not reading my posts. The C&R license is completely different from the piece of Missouri law he and I are referring to.
Again, under Missouri law, C&R guns are exempt from the PTA, having nothing to do with acquiring them with a C&R license, they are just a class of firearms, with different purchase/acquisition conditions under Missouri law.
Possibly, again, don't know the specifics. However, it is legal to purchase a firearm with the intention of giving it as a gift.
That would work. Missouri fully recognizes Maine permits, it both their resident and non-resident capacity. A Missouri resident can apply for a Maine, or a Florida, or a Utah Non-Resident CCW permit, and Missouri recognizes it as a legal endorsement to carry.
Matt Beck
Matt, seems like "what we have here is a failure to communicate", I know well the requirements for a firearm to qualify as a C&R, that isn't my question. I am questioning the accuracy, (truthfulness) of RS3Rs posts. He states he isn't old enough to legally purchase a handgun in MO. That means he doesn't have a C&R license either. He further states that he bought a 1911 from Gunbroker, paid for it with a MO because he doesn't have a credit card. Then he states that he had an "older relative" buy it for him. If he gave that person the money and asked him to buy the firearm, that is a "strawman" deal. If the "older relative" doesn't have a C&R license and had to transfer the pistol through an O1 licensee, he had to fill out a 4473. The first question on the form is "are you the actual buyer of this firearm"? If his "older relative" truthfully answered no, then the sale couldn't have been compleated. If he answered "yes" when he was in fact buying it for RS3RS then he committed perjury (you should really read all the fine print). I have read the MO statutes and the question of carrying a C&R using an out of state license appears to be a "gray area".
HTML:
He states he isn't old enough to legally purchase a handgun in MO. That means he doesn't have a C&R license either.He says he is not old enough to purchase/recieve a new manufacture handgun in Missouri, or purchase any pistol through an FFL (federal law = 21 to acquire through an FFL, we both know that). The C&R *license* is irrelevant, at 18 it is legal in the state of Missouri, according to those laws as i understand them, to acqurie a C&R eligible handgun through a private transfer. Again, the C&R license is totally irrelevant, its just the C&R eligibility of the handgun that is important.
Right, but it IS legal to purchase a firearm with the intent to give it as a gift. Think how many kid's recieve their first firearm from a parent or other relative. And this applies outside the family as well, it is legal to purchase and give a firearm as a gift to someone who is able to legally acquire and and own the firearm (which is all individual state statutes).
Again, i don't know the details of this case, i am just reiterating that purchasing a firearm as a gift is legit.
The C&R firearm has nothing to do with the Concealed Carry law. The C&R eligibility is directly related to the possession acquisition of the firearm, not the carrying.
The concealed carry law basically sets out the parameters for acquiring the Missouri state license, and the little things you have to follow (posted buildings, where you can't carry, etc). It does NOT set a minimum age for concealed carry on recognized out of state permits.
Missouri also recognizes a very wide range of permits, almost all of which having lower age requirments (and better conditions in other facets as well) than ours. The most popular of these are Florida and Utah, because they last longer, are more widely recognized out of state, and may be cheaper (not sure on the cost, non of them are super pricey to get). Utah and Florida both issue at 21.
Maine permits, including their non-resident permits, are also recognized, and Maine issues their permits at 18+.
Below is the actual text of the Missouri CCW law
As you can see, it says that a Missouri permit issued under the conditions above (the rest of the CCW law, the Missouri Issuing parameters etc), or a permit from somewhere we recognize allows one to carry concealable firearms.
It does not say one must be 23 (or 21, or 18, or 7).
Matt Beck
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