Good Samaratan, CCW, takes out Bad Guy FL

[gym]

It's interesting to see how certain things are just taken for granted. Real time events are a matter of a split second when you either comit, or intrust your life to a scumbag who is unstable and doesn't know what he himself is going to do, or he wouldn't be holding up a busy store in mid afternoon. And some of you want to give them the benefit of the doubt, come on yes we will make him the decision maker after he has experience.

 

[hometheaterman]

Like said none of us know what exactly happened here. Only the people there do. However, in my eyes this guy is a hero and I will pray for him and hope he has a full recovery and gets his medical bills covered for him.

Now that being said. If I was in the situation would it be worth dying for over $20 if I knew that was all it would be? No it wouldn't. However, what if the robber had taken the $20 then turned around and shot all the witnesses in the place. Or shot several of them and I was one of the ones left alive. If I had been carrying and not done anything I wouldn't be able to sleep at night knowing it was my fault I chose not to do anything and let others get hurt or killed.

You never know if he is going to kill someone or just take $20. If he is armed I'm not willing to take the chance that he is just going to take money as I know if something else happens like I said I wont be able to sleep at night knowing I could have stopped it and didn't.

If I get hurt in the process will it have been what I wanted? No. However, I may be in pain for the rest of my life but I will be able to sleep at night knowing I did the right thing and saved others lives. That's something I'd be willing to stand up for.

This guy was also willing to stand up for the lives of the others and is a true hero in my book.

 

[Mike Sr.]

This dead robber, I wonder if this was his first crime?

This dead robber, I wonder if this was his first crime with a gun?

Maybe a robber should never be confronted, anytime, anywhere?

Maybe we should never confront evil or evil acts anytime or anywhere, for any reason?

Let's just let our neighbors house burn!

Maybe 'we' should act ONLY if the threat is to 'me'?

Guess we just wait until there is a dead clerk, cashier...etc!


Anyway I'm glad it was his last attempted robbery.

 

[Jeff White]

rogerjames;

Here is a table for 2007 arrests by age: http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2007/data/table_38.html

Here is a table for arrests by sex: http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2007/data/table_37.html

I don't know where you'd look for statistics by income. My personal anecdotal experience as a police officer was that economic status didn't matter much when dealing with juveniles. I think I dealt with as many from the good side of the tracks as from the bad side.

 

[Mike Sr.]

JW: Question about those stat's per state that you mention!

How about a break down of those crime rates?

I like to know the social break down:

# of Causians

# of Blacks

# of Mexicans...

etc

Then compare which group seems to have a higher crime factor!


"Still want to stand by your theory that it's all about arming the population?".... Can you tell me where the Constitution guarantee's police protection?

 

[rogerjames]

Here is a table for 2007 arrests by age: http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2007/data/table_38.html

Here is a table for arrests by sex: http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2007/data/table_37.html

I don't know where you'd look for statistics by income. My personal anecdotal experience as a police officer was that economic status didn't matter much when dealing with juveniles. I think I dealt with as many from the good side of the tracks as from the bad side.

Thanks Jeff. I would have to agree that my anecdotal experiences as a citizen that frequents the "best" and "worst" neighborhoods in south florida are "in-line" with your experiences as a LEO. As I am usually dressed in medical "scrubs", I would assume I appear "non-threatening" in most environments, but I find myself on "higher alert" around youth... regardless of the neighborhood.

 

[rogerjames]

JW: Question about those stat's per state that you mention!

How about a break down of those crime rates?

I like to know the social break down:

# of Causians

# of Blacks

# of Mexicans...

etc

Then compare which group seems to have a higher crime factor!

Mike, from my personal experience, race plays very little... and socioeconomic status plays very much. South Florida may be the most mixed racial community in the country. We have wealthy gated communities full of doctors, lawyers, business owners etc. that are Jamaican, Hatian, Vietnamese, German, Russian, Jewish, Cuban, Puerto Rican, Venezuelan, Dominican, etc etc. The poor white folks in the trailer parks will get ya as quick as the minorities in the ghetto. The youth are the dangerous ones. Young and dumb. It's all about $$$.

 

[4Freedom]

Could it be that there is much more to the crime rate then the ability to carry a gun? Maybe things like the cultural differences between the people living in Tennessee and Wisconsin? Or how about the per capita income and employment levels? Number of people with a high school education? Number of males between 14 and 28 in each state?

Still want to stand by your theory that it's all about arming the population?

Out of a population of 6,214,888 people there is only 220,000 permit holders? Yes, I will definately stand by my argument. I do agree that ethnic, religious and political groups, as well as sociology plays a great part into this equation. Even more so than economic status, the demographics and ethnic/socio makeup of the population. I lived among lot of poor people on the Oregon coast, yet violent crimes were quite low.

You probably missed my comparison to murders in Iraq to that of Wisconsin and gun to civilian ratio. Sure, maybe in Somalia every 2 year old has a gun, but of course culture plays a great deal in this. However, if you think that 3.5% of the population being armed is failing to control violence in the city, maybe its time for you to look at the scenario if the number was 30% of the population was carrying guns. Also, there is a lot of rural areas in state of TEnnessee, and seeing that only 3% of the population legally carries gun with them, I would speculate that most of those people are not in the city. Most people in urban areas have this funny notion only police should carry guns and that civilians are just clumsy morons who will shoot and kill innocent people by mistake.

Also, can you explain to me why a majority of crimes in Washington and Oregon state happen in urban areas and why rural homes very seldom face any threat? I mean, I lived only 40 minutes from the city of Portland and almost everyone had a gun in their home. Many people still left the door unlocked at night. You drive 40 minutes into the city, where very few people own guns, there is a high number of burgalaries. I believe most criminals fear the "well armed" country folk, than the "poor me, I am victim, call the police" city folks. That is my opinion, I am sure you can say it is ludicrous, if you wish.

The same situtaion in my state. A majority of the conceal carry permits are outside Seattle and Seattle has the highest crime rate? Ironic or is not?


Take this example. Lets say there is three fast food restaurants. Each one has a sign. One says ,"3% of our customers may be armed". Another says, "30% of our customers may be armed" and another says "60% of our customres may be armed". Now, seeing you're a criminal and want to rob a store with the least hassle and risk to your life, which of the three places would you choose, assuming each has the same amount of money in the til? Jeff, can I ask you to provide me the statistics of the number of armed police officers and police stations that have been robbed at gunpoint? Can you compare that with the number of convenience stores that have been robbed?

 

[rogerjames]

Also, can you explain to me why a majority of crimes in Washington and Oregon state happen in urban areas and why rural homes very seldom face any threat? I mean, I lived only 30 minutes from the city of Portland and almost everyone had a gun in their home. Many people still left the door unlocked at night. 30 minutes in the city, where very few people own guns, there is a high number of burgalaries. I believe most criminals fear the "well armed" country folk, than the "poor me, I am victim, call the police" city folks. That is my opinion, I am sure you can say it is ludicrous, if you wish.

I am just guessing here, but I would venture that there is more opportunity, greater reward, and easier to disappear in the city than in the country.
I agree that 30% vs. 3% would make a difference, but unfortunately, that is not a reality... at least not yet, so Jeff is probably right that CHP levels don't affect crime, because the overall number is still relatively low.

 

[Rockwell1]

I wouldn't be able to sleep at night knowing it was my fault I chose not to do anything and let others get hurt or killed.

Shouldn't the robber take SOME responsibility here?

 

[4Freedom]

I agree that 30% vs. 3% would make a difference, but unfortunately, that is not a reality... at least not yet, so Jeff is probably right that CHP levels don't affect crime

Please tell me you didn't just contradict yourself?

I am just guessing here, but I would venture that there is more opportunity, greater reward, and easier to disappear in the city than in the country.

As far as its easier to hide in the city, I can say yes and no. Where I used to live, the police where like 30 minutes away. It was the people you had to watch out for, if you do wrong deeds. You could steal plenty from someone's house and go take a hike through the woods or take backroads back to the major roads. Out there though, you have to have the guts to go break into a house that you will know the person will most likely be armed. I know from living out there that it is more fearsome to approach those rural homes than fear of the local sheriff or highway patrolman catching you. The people out there are also more vigilant about defending what they have. Don't know about rewards, but it seems a greatest deal of burgarlaries and robberies in the city happen in the areas with the least rewards, that is the low-class crime ridden neighborhoods. The wealthy neighborhoods have higher amount of gun protection, that is law enforcement, compared to the slums.

Poverty and wealth exist in the small towns and countryside too, yet they have much less crime. One observation I will make is that morality is higher, as well as more gun ownership and experienced shooters. I like the old saying, an armed society is a polite society.

 

[Zoogster]

I wouldn't be able to sleep at night knowing it was my fault I chose not to do anything and let others get hurt or killed.

Shouldn't the robber take SOME responsibility here?

You can only take responsibility for your own actions or inactions.

I personaly wish to remove as much of the decision making process from the armed criminal as possible. After all thier decision making process shows quite a bit of error. Whether I or others live is a decision I feel they have demonstrated they are the least qualified in the room to make.

It also suggests to me that no one was under an immediate threat of death, if they were opening fire would have been proper not "drop the gun!

"

Someone entering into a store who is violent and unpredictable while pointing a gun at people means there is an imminent threat of death, no firing is required to create that threat.
A fraction of an inch of trigger pull is all the is seperating people from potential death and nobody can read the mind of the potential killers.
Criminals who are showing a willingness to be violent predators.
The very purpose of thier gun in robbery is as an immediate threat of death to gain compliance and that is in the best case scenario if you make the assumption that is thier only intention. A potentialy lethal assumption. (Even if it was their only intention they are often unstable and unpredictable and do things even they don't plan on regularly. After several days on thier latest drug binge, in need of new drug funds, what can make them snap can be totaly illogical.)
There is an immediate threat of death.

Legaly that is ususaly the same as them pointing the gun at you. There is no requirement to let an innocent person die before a reaction to the life threatening danger they pose.
Clearly it would not meet your moral requirements to act, but that is a different thing altogether.

 

[Jeff White]

Out of a population of 6,214,888 people there is only 220,000 permit holders? Yes, I will definately stand by my argument.

You haven't got an argument to stand by. The crime rate in Tennessee is much higher then the crime rate in Wisconsin, despite 220K CCW holders. How can they be lowering the crime rate? Wisconsin has zero CCW holders and a much lower crime rate. You can't explain that with your urban/rural argument.

If you look at this table, you will find that many non-metropolitan counties in Tennessee have a pretty high violent crime rate: http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2007/data/table_10.html

You'll need to go back to the census page to get the population of the counties you are interested in.

Also, can you explain to me why a majority of crimes in Washington and Oregon state happen in urban areas and why rural homes very seldom face any threat?

I can easily explain it. It's the cultural differences. Don't delude yourself that an entire city is crime ridden. Most of the violent crime happens in a few neighborhoods in a city. The number of guns has nothing to do with it. It's the number of people living in an area where the culture is different then in the rest of the city. The places where gangs control things is where most of the violent crime occurs. If you stay out of those neighborhoods your chances of being a victim of a violent crime drop considerably. That might explain why your theory that CCW lowers the crime rate won't hold water. CCW holders tend to be law abiding responsible citizens. How many of them frequent the places where violent crime is most prevalent? Probably not many.

Contrary to the impression you get from the internet gun forums and the TV news, we live in one of the safest industrialized societies in the world. John Farnham's advice about not living a criminal lifestyle or hanging around those who do, and not going to the places where the criminals hang out will keep you out of trouble. Where did the incident that started this thread happen? In one of those neighborhoods.

Criminals tend to victimize each other and the people that live around them. They don't often venture out of their familiar haunts to commit violent crimes. Yes it happens, but it's pretty rare. There are places where you can't help but interacting with that element, like at sporting events and concerts, but for the most part they stay where they live.

Fear of armed citizens certainly doesn't keep property crime down in the rural areas. Why do you think that is?

But you have to face the fact that the 220K CCW holders in Tennessee hasn't got the per capita violent crime down to anything resembling the per capita rate in Wisconsin, where there are no CCW holders.

It's social/economics, cultural differences and the number of males between 14 and 28 in the respective populations. Guns don't make a bit of difference one way or the other.

 

[Old Guy]

Our hero, if he survives is in for a lifetime of high medical bills, pain, loss of income while he recovers and might even be sued by one of the bystanders for causing them mental anguish if some attorney thinks that there is money to be wrung out of his insurance company

This was in Florida, no can sue in this type of incident.

"Drop the gun?" people see to many movies!

Jeff, even living in the most corrupt State, Illinois, you personally can be armed always? HR 218, I believe the ex Police carry anywhere law is?
Just the citizens can not?

Carrying a LEO calibre pistol, 9mm/.40/.45ACP gives you the CHOICE to make a move in this BK, one I would never have to make, I do not frequent burger joints, and when sitting in our favorite Restaurant, I face the door, back against the wall, in 5 years of frequenting this nice establishment, never had the slightest concern for our safety, and I get to see all inbound traffic.

The only safe shot in this incident (mind you I was not there!) would be a almost contact shot to the head. Who here is going to take that shot, or advocate same? Mind you, it would be legal in Florida.

Having my best friend shot dead in a Gun Store robbery, by accident! One of the four criminals, had his finger on the trigger of the .32, in his right hand, hammer breaking glass with left! Has me looking at armed robbers in a different manner than most.

Holding his icy cold hand on one side of the hospital bed, whilst his Mum held the other one as he passed, left me with a cold stone lump where my heart used to be.

 

[Mp7]

...shooting BGs in the back should be a safe legal practice.

Playing high-noon with someone who has already drawn,
sounds like going all-in with 7-2.

I also would want a .45 for offensive action like that.

 

[4Freedom]

You haven't got an argument to stand by. The crime rate in Tennessee is much higher then the crime rate in Wisconsin, despite 220K CCW holders. How can they be lowering the crime rate? Wisconsin has zero CCW holders and a much lower crime rate. You can't explain that with your urban/rural argument.

I do have an argument to stand on. It looks like you failed to read my analogy of the fast food restaurants. If I don't have an argument to stand on then please answer this question. You see three banks, each has a total of $5,000,000 each stored in them. One bank has a sign, "3 armed security guards". Bank two has a sign, "6 armed security guards". Bank three has a sign, "20 armed security guards". Now, if you are a desperate criminal, which of the three banks will you rob, assuming you don't know the shooting skills of the guards or the layout of each bank.

Would you rob:
Bank #1 with 3 Armed Security Guards
Bank #2 with 6 Armed Security Guards
Bank #3 with 20 Armed Security Guards

If anyone here says Bank #1, I do believe I have a strong argument on my side. This is logical and common sense. Yes, I agree there is many co-factors and just saying having more gun owners and conceal carry permits will alone lead to a low crime rate is absurd. However, to say that because Tennessee has more crime than Wisconsin, means CCW has no detering effect for crime is equally absurd.

You are comparing apples and oranges, comparing Wisconsin to Tennessee. I could just as easily compare crime rate in Lucerne, Switzerland to Nairobi, Kenya. Switzerland has much more liberal gun laws than any African nation, especially Kenya. Nairobi, has one of the highest murder rates in the world. The fact that Milwaukee, a city that has probably a similar demographic layout to those in Tennessee (such as Memphis), has more crime than any city in Tennessee may also be an eye-opener for you.

What we need to compare is Tennessee to Tennessee. Does having larger amount of CCW permit holders result in less crime in Tennessee as opposed to less CCW permit holders in Tennessee? I agree the co-factors must be taken into consideration.

I know a guy from Detroit who had a shootout with an armed man in his house. As soon as the burgaler saw bullets flying his way, he panicked like a chicken and took off. However, had this man not fired his gun, the burgaler would have killed him and his family. What was it that made the burgaler so afraid as to flee, I am sure it wasn't the gun, since a law-abiding citizen with a gun would not to deter crime, right?

Even if Tennessee has higher rural crime than other states, the crime rate in rural Tennessee is very very low compared to urban areas. It is true male youth commit more crimes. Socio-econic, cultural, ethnic and even religious views will also be a major contributing factor to the criminal element in the area. Despite these well known facts, that does not mean that arming citizens in these areas will not affect the crime rate. These criminals pray on the weak, not the strong. A purse snatcher will go beat up some old lady and run with her purse, rather than pick a fight with a 300lb bodybuilder to get his wallet.

I asked you earlier, tell me how many police stations or other facilities with high numbered of armed personnel have been robbed at gunpoint compared with civilian establishments where people are known to be unarmed. I am sure the Memphis PD has plenty of goodies in their evidence room. How come gangs of armed thugs don't go and raid it if they are so undeterred by guns?

Food for thought.

 

[flynlr]

Quote:
You know if more and more citizens would stand up against the criminals and if they know any minute they commit these crimes they can end up with a bullet in their chest, I think more and more criminals will consider a new profession.

from JW Do you have some proof of that or is it just wishful thinking?

mr JW he said Think. right there in the post.

 

[XavierBreath]

I just want to interject a side note to rogerjames regarding something he posted:

As I am usually dressed in medical "scrubs", I would assume I appear "non-threatening" in most environments,

You are correct. Non-threatening. However, you are a huge target, because you are seen as having money, drugs, or at the least insulin syringes and a car. You are also seen as being a person opposed to violence and one who would not put up a fight, much less one who would carry a gun.

You are not a target because you appear threatening. You become a target when the criminal actor believes you have something he wants and you are in an environment or situation where he can take it with little risk to himself.

PM me if you like.

 

[USMC 1975]

I would like to remind people who are skeptic about the guy taking action over a $ 20 dollar robbery.

It is becoming common place in Florida that even after complying with a bad guys orders they shoot you anyways.

If someone pulls a gun in my presence and commits a robbery, ( and I could careless if its over 25 cents at a kool aid stand ), I will fire upon them if they refuse to drop their weapon or make the wrong move.

I can count several robberies that have occurred recently in my area where the victims did everything asked and still got a bullet in their head.

This is no longer Hollywood folks and crimes do not go down like they used to. We all need to face the facts that some of these suspects have no regard for life whatsoever.

Chris

 

[loneviking]

A few random thoughts:

I read of an off duty LEO that walked into a robbery at a McDonalds. The BG was in the back robbing the safe, then runs for the door. Off duty LEO engages BG and a shootout occurs. LEO comes out O.K., BG is dead---and so is a 9 year old girl from a stray bullet. A BK with customers is not some place I'm willing to open up in over a cash register robbery. I've been shot, and if I'm going to go through that again, I'm going to make sure there is a darn good reason for it---like fear of immediate death.

As for crime, Jeff, guns do make a difference. I guess the statistics prove that they don't make ALL the difference, but every state that has passed 'shall issue' CCW has seen violent crime drop. I live in Nevada, and just over the mountain from me is Sacramento, CA. In CA., very tough to get a CCW and the crime rate (both what you see in the papers and what actually happens) is very high. In Reno, in comparison, it's extremely low and Nevada has 'shall issue'.

What's odd is that the crime rate in Reno is still higher than you would expect with just over 9,000 CCW permits issued. There are quite a number of armed robberies being committed by Norteanos/Sureanos gangs, and these guys aren't afraid to open up on even the cops.

Half hour away, in Carson/Douglas counties, we have MS13 and a homegrown gang, the Bambinos. We also have lots of CCW holders, a very active local gun range, a big IDPA club with monthly shoots---and nowhere near the incidents of crime that you would expect given how many youngsters there are around.

Why? I'm guessing (and also from talking to local LEO's) that the BG's know that it's more dangerous to start something in Carson/Douglas where there's a large group of shooters that practice on a regular basis, and where it's going to be harder to disappear into a neighborhood than in a larger city.

Jeff, you're a cop, what are your thoughts?

 

[DC300a]

I am not sure what to say in regards to the incident because we dont have (and may never have) all of the facts. But one thing I do know is that I have been very disappointed with this thread and the me, me, me attitude I have seen expressed in it.

"Evil prospers when good men do nothing"

 

[Deanimator]

Then the complaint will bring up the statistics that most armed robberies don't get violent if the victim cooperates.

And if you can't trust in the common sense and basic decency of armed robbers, what CAN you trust in???

Thank god those six women in that Lane Bryant store in Tinley Park didn't resist. The guy who shot them in the head might have been hurt...

 

[Rockwell1]

Clearly it would not meet your moral requirements to act, but that is a different thing altogether.

It's not a question of morals it's a question of risk. 90/10 split that the bad guy's going to walk out with his 20$ and not hurt anyone is good enough odds for me not to try drawing on a guy with a gun in his hand

 

[RoadkingLarry]

Tough call to make without having been there to see the dynamics.
We have been conditioned to 'Do what the bad guy tells you to do and no one will get hurt". Problem is that isn't always the case. 3 of 4 hijacked airliners come to mind as one example of that.
Here in the little podunk town I live in there is a pharmacy about a block from where I am sitting now. About a year ago a guy comes in to rob them. The owner and his assistant comply, give him all the cash in the drawer and a bag full of drugs. For their cooperation the scum bag caves in thier skulls with a claw hammer. Both victims lived and mostly recovered but the young assitant will have major problems the rest of her life and will never be the same, the bad guy is doing a life sentence.
Too often robberies turn into worse even if the victim does as they are told.

 

[Deanimator]

Too often robberies turn into worse even if the victim does as they are told.

And I don't know ANYBODY who can accurately predict WHEN that'll happen.

Nobody was ever worse off from predicting that bad people would do bad things.