Goodbye W231/HP38?

Status
Not open for further replies.
J

judgedelta

Member
Joined
Sep 12, 2013
Messages
687
Just came from a gunshow where a powder vender, who sounded like he knew of what he spoke, said that he had received a correspondence from Hodgen that they were discontinuing the 231/38 line due to the expense of mfg. compared to the newer powders. Any remaining production would be used to fill backorders.

Any confirmation on this? I know I haven't seen any in these parts lately.

I got 8# of CFE pistol and it appears to be pretty versatile.
 
I think it is going away...has been talked about since this time last year and I have seen messages sent from the company to people, that confirm that it will be gone relatively soon.
 
That is a bummer. HP-38 has been a good powder for me, luckily I still have about 1 3/4 pounds of it left. On the plus side for new powders I recently started using some CFE Pistol and the results are just as good if not better than 231/HP-38 out of my pistols. If CFE pistol is more abundant on the shelves, I think that I can live with it.
 
What powders are replacing them and what other powders are being affected?
Hope Universal isn't one of them.
 
I have a W/231 4 pounder and a few 1 pounders left and love it! But if CFE takes its place and will be more versatile cool!:(
 
I use several pistol powders, but liked the HP-38...nice metering. I could live without it, which I wont have to for a while. Several 1 pounders and a new 8 pounder, so it will be a while...sorry to see it go.

Russellc
 
Bummer, and Titegroup will never replace it for me, assuming it actually gets discontinued.

I don't understand what could be so different or more expensive in how it's made though. Maybe someone could tell us. It's a flattened ball powder, like many others AFAIK.
 
I use Titegroup as my main powder but 231 for .380 loads. I just let a friend have an 8 pounder of it that I would have held on to.
I don't understand this concept of discontinuing based on cost. Just pass it on to the customer and let them decide if it is worth it.
Probably just a hyped up rumor.
 
Walkalong said:
I don't understand what could be so different or more expensive in how it's made though. Maybe someone could tell us. It's a flattened ball powder, like many others AFAIK.
Click to expand...

Since historically W231/HP-38 have prices comparable with other similar use powders, I suspect production costs would be similar. Maybe Hodgdon has to sell the powder for a "loss" to be cost competitive with other powders.

What would make sense to me is Hodgdon will be discontinuing one of the brand names, in my opinion, probably Winchester 231 will be discontinued. Hodgdon probably pays royalties to Olin for the Winchester name and maybe the contract is up.

But, I do not have any information to back up that theory. I'm jut a retired engineer so what do I know.

Well, i have eight or nine pounds to decide what I will use instead.
 
Found this post on another board and thought I would pass the info along......


Received this email today in response to an inquiry about Win231 Powder.
"Winchester 231 certainly has been hard to get. The plant that makes Winchester powders does not want to make 231 as well as a few other powders. These older technology powders have different chemistry than the new powders and this older chemistry makes it much slower to make powder: basically, you can make about 2.5 times as many pounds of new chemistry powder in the time it takes to make 1 pound of old chemistry powder. During the process of making the old powders, the waste stream created is huge compared to the waste stream of the new chemistry powders. Chemical waste is very expensive to get rid of. So, the plant wants to phase out the old chemistry powders and replace them with new chemistry powders. While they are still making 231, the amount is being reduced and the amount of new powder such as Titegroup and Longshot is being increased.
Now, we are kind of stuck in the middle. The market is demanding 231 but the maker is not wanting to produce the powder. The result is, over time, 231 is going to go away. Shooters should begin using other powders as they can.
Mike Daly
Hodgdon Family of Fine Propellants
Hodgdon Smokeless Powder
IMR Powder Company
Winchester Smokeless Propellants
GOEX Blackpowder"
Click to expand...

This from another forum
 
In my opinion its BS.

I would have asked the question what makes it more expensive as opposed to other canister grade powders to produce? Its always been a business practice to past the increased expense on to the purchaser until there is a decline of market share.

I've noticed that 8lb containers of HP38 are in stock in my area.
 
Walkalong said:
Bummer, and Titegroup will never replace it for me, assuming it actually gets discontinued.



I don't understand what could be so different or more expensive in how it's made though. Maybe someone could tell us. It's a flattened ball powder, like many others AFAIK.
Click to expand...


I'm not an expert on the subject Walkalong but I hang out with higher ups in the Winchester/Olin organization. We were discussing this at our Tuesday night pistol league a week or two ago.

It was explained to me like this: older technology powders like hp38/231 have a much higher amount of hazardous waste generated in their production which raises the cost of production. There were other things mentioned too regarding the production of it costing more than say Titegroup or cfe pistol.

Take that for what it's worth, just the word of a guy on the internet.
 
THIS IS PURE USDA PRIME BS !! I just emailed my pal who is one of the HODGDON BROTHERS. And I quote;
"...yeah right...we are going to discontinue the best selling W-W pistol propellent of all time....yeah right...and we are going to discontinue the BEST selling HODGDON pistol propellent of all time...yeah right....

THINK !!!
And so it goes...
 
Last edited by a moderator:
ljnowell said:
I'm not an expert on the subject Walkalong but I hang out with higher ups in the Winchester/Olin organization. We were discussing this at our Tuesday night pistol league a week or two ago.

It was explained to me like this: older technology powders like hp38/231 have a much higher amount of hazardous waste generated in their production which raises the cost of production. There were other things mentioned too regarding the production of it costing more than say Titegroup or cfe pistol.

Take that for what it's worth, just the word of a guy on the internet.
Click to expand...
This makes sense, but it is a number of powders if "old style" powders then, not just W-231. Interesting. I wonder if Zip will go away, as it is a very close cousin, if not the same thing.
 
..yeah right...we are going to discontinue the best selling W-W pistol propellent of all time....yeah right...and we are going to discontinue the BEST selling HODGDON pistol propellent of all time.
Click to expand...

Because the production is not up to them?
 
Walkalong said:
This makes sense, but it is a number of powders if "old style" powders then, not just W-231. Interesting. I wonder if Zip will go away, as it is a very close cousin, if not the same thing.
Click to expand...

I had the same question in mind and sent the question to the Hodgdon help line. The following is the answer to my question, which appears below the answer. I does seem to confirm that this isn't just an Internet legend. BTW I don't think Zip is a Hodgdon powder or who actually makes it, so it doesn't answer that question.

************************

Right now, it would be more prudent to tell you that there is no intention of discontinuing H110/W296 nor do we intend to discontinue Titegroup or Titewad.

The majority of powders that the plant wishes to discontinue are non-canister products rather than the canister products which are used by the reloading public.

Mike Daly
Hodgdon Family of Fine Propellants
Hodgdon Smokeless Powder
IMR Powder Company
Winchester Smokeless Propellants
GOEX Blackpowder


NOTICE – This e-mail message may contain privileged, confidential, or sensitive information intended only for the use of the identified recipient. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, or reproduction of this e-mail is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately, and delete this e-mail and all attachments from your computer system


From: Skinnedknuckles
Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2015 7:52 PM
To: Help Account
Subject: Win 231 and similar powder


Mr. Daly,

The email below appeared in a post on The Firearms Forum. I assume it is a valid email from you and it leads to a follow on question.

You mention “231 as well as a few other powders.” My primary powder has been HP-38/Win 231 and while I can easily change over (I was already starting to work with Titegroup with good initial results for my purposes) I would like to be sure I don’t change over to one of those “few other powders”. I would also like to know if any of my other current powders, such as H110/Win 296, are also going to be phased out. Could you tell me what those other powders are?

Thank you,


"Winchester 231 certainly has been hard to get. The plant that makes Winchester powders does not want to make 231 as well as a few other powders. These older technology powders have different chemistry than the new powders and this older chemistry makes it much slower to make powder: basically, you can make about 2.5 times as many pounds of new chemistry powder in the time it takes to make 1 pound of old chemistry powder. During the process of making the old powders, the waste stream created is huge compared to the waste stream of the new chemistry powders. Chemical waste is very expensive to get rid of. So, the plant wants to phase out the old chemistry powders and replace them with new chemistry powders. While they are still making 231, the amount is being reduced and the amount of new powder such as Titegroup and Longshot is being increased.

Now, we are kind of stuck in the middle. The market is demanding 231 but the maker is not wanting to produce the powder. The result is, over time, 231 is going to go away. Shooters should begin using other powders as they can.

Mike Daly
Hodgdon Family of Fine Propellants
Hodgdon Smokeless Powder
IMR Powder Company
Winchester Smokeless Propellants
GOEX Blackpowder"
 
What is the difference in them not discontinuing it and it never being available... and them discontinuing it.

I say...not much.
 
It's important to remember that Hodgdon isn't discontinuing anything, as they don't produce a single powder themselves. The same applies to Ramshot (Western Powder).

IMHO, this is what progress looks like. Pistol powders, of all the reloading powders out there, are the easiest to substitute. The only people benefit from sticking exclusively to certain powders are people who compete in accuracy competitions. I compete, albeit in practical shooting, and using one specific powder over the next is just not that important. As long as there are choices of powders that meter well in a certain burn range, I can swap them out all day long and not see any on target difference.

If 231 meters like water and fills your shooting needs, time to move on to another powder that meters like water and meets your shooting needs. I'd recommend Accurate #2.

OTOH, if someone works up an awesome sub-moa load with a rifle powder, and now that powder is gone forever, then yeah they have a reason to be disappointed.
 
Last edited:
It's important to remember that Hodgdon isn't discontinuing anything, as they don't produce a single powder themselves.
Click to expand...


What does it matter "who" discontinues it?

If it is discontinued by anyone in the supply chain...it is still discontinued.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

A
  • Locked
HP38 vs. W231?
Replies
20
Views
4K
The Bushmaster
The Bushmaster
LiveLife
  • Locked
Green Dot vs W231/HP38
Replies
14
Views
3K
Jesse Heywood
Jesse Heywood
kcofohio
  • Locked
The HP-38/W231 Syndrome?
2
Replies
31
Views
3K
buck460XVR
buck460XVR
longdayjake
  • Locked
Blew up a Kahr
2 3
Replies
54
Views
3K
LiveLife
LiveLife
S
  • Locked
IMR/H-4227
Replies
0
Views
2K
scott5
S
Back
Top