Goose Creek PD Cleared on all Charges
- Thread starter FedDC
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Michigander
Member
In Detroit, the two crooked cops, Budsen (sp?) and Nevers, didn't get away with murdering Malice Green by beating him to death with flashlights.
That makes 2. But who's counting.
Third_Rail
Member
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- Jan 10, 2004
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- 4,979
So it's okay for the police to do this at a suspected drug house, but not if the deals are happening at a school?
I was in highschool until not too long ago, and I can tell you, the drug sellers and buyers are ARMED. Everyone being on the floor could've saved lives.
But since no drugs, weapons, or contraband were discovered, it's okay to say it was completely unneeded. And then if they go into a school without this and cops/students get shot, the LEOs will be bashed... again.
I'm not for unlawful searches, but c'mon. This is 2004, NOT 1904. "Kids" can be dangerous.
I was in highschool until not too long ago, and I can tell you, the drug sellers and buyers are ARMED. Everyone being on the floor could've saved lives.
But since no drugs, weapons, or contraband were discovered, it's okay to say it was completely unneeded. And then if they go into a school without this and cops/students get shot, the LEOs will be bashed... again.
I'm not for unlawful searches, but c'mon. This is 2004, NOT 1904. "Kids" can be dangerous.
Standing Wolf
Member in memoriam
[SACASM] Another Great Victory in the war against some drugs! [/SARCASM]
Wow.
madcowburger, if you only knew.
Without naming names publicly, I can tell you that I am very close to officers who have had full-blown Internal Affairs investigations over complaints of illegal searches by criminals who invited them into their house to look around.
I know of a good and well-meaning rookie officer who got days off and a letter of Excessive Force for temporarily hobbling his prisoner's feet to the prisoner's cuffs, after the prisoner had fought, slipped his cuffs in front, and tried to get away. The prisoner had a conviction of homicide, and threatened the officer. The officer only did this for the duration of the trip to jail, because his patrol car had no safety cage in it!!! It has never even been alleged that the officer ever inflicted pain upon the prisoner, and the prisoner never even issued a verbal complaint, let alone a written one!
EricOKC
Member
Matt G
Do they still have their jobs? Are they in jail? I assume they are still alive.
When a regular peon, er i mean, citizen makes those kinds of "mistakes" they face jail time. "Unauthorized searches" by non-LEO's are generally called "breaking and entering" or "burglary".
When regular serfs, i mean citizens, are the subject of a complaint of "excessive force" it means a LOT more than a letter in some file somewhere. It generally means arrest, detention, a trial, a sentance, legal fees, loss of job, etc.
Thats the kind of "accountability" to which I believe MCB is referring. Its the kind of accountability I'd personally like to see. LEO flagrantly violates someone's rights in the course of doing his job, LEO gets an extended tour of the state correctional facility. LEO kills citizen by mistake, LEO gets a LONG tour of the state correctional facility if not a quick ride on Ol' Sparky depending upon the circumstances.
Wow - a full IAD investigation... Harsh....
Do they still have their jobs? Are they in jail? I assume they are still alive.
When a regular peon, er i mean, citizen makes those kinds of "mistakes" they face jail time. "Unauthorized searches" by non-LEO's are generally called "breaking and entering" or "burglary".
When regular serfs, i mean citizens, are the subject of a complaint of "excessive force" it means a LOT more than a letter in some file somewhere. It generally means arrest, detention, a trial, a sentance, legal fees, loss of job, etc.
Thats the kind of "accountability" to which I believe MCB is referring. Its the kind of accountability I'd personally like to see. LEO flagrantly violates someone's rights in the course of doing his job, LEO gets an extended tour of the state correctional facility. LEO kills citizen by mistake, LEO gets a LONG tour of the state correctional facility if not a quick ride on Ol' Sparky depending upon the circumstances.
You're missing the point.
Matt G is talking about serious consequences when the officers in question didn't even do anything wrong. And yes, those things do have lasting effects on a police career. Also, frankly? the cases where officers escape justice for their actions are the ones that make the news because they are exceptional. Cops get fired every day for screwing up, and they don't make the news...unless they screwed up very badly indeed, or they did something really boneheaded and eluded punishment.
Back on point:
I have waited patiently for Goose Creek PD to come up with something, publicly, to justify their actions in this case. I was admittedly very curious to see what that could possibly be, but I was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. At long last I gotta say that I pretty much fall in line with Johnny on this one. It comes off as a scare-tactics stunt, and thats decidedly unkosher when the people doing the scaring are cops and the people being scared are citizens, and children at that.
Got specific credible intel that a dope boy is holding weight and packing heat? Fine. Hit him...but lets not do it in a school where you could end up with a gunfight. And it sounds like they didn't even have that.
I'd go on, but Johnny said it first, and better.
Mike
Matt G is talking about serious consequences when the officers in question didn't even do anything wrong. And yes, those things do have lasting effects on a police career. Also, frankly? the cases where officers escape justice for their actions are the ones that make the news because they are exceptional. Cops get fired every day for screwing up, and they don't make the news...unless they screwed up very badly indeed, or they did something really boneheaded and eluded punishment.
Back on point:
I have waited patiently for Goose Creek PD to come up with something, publicly, to justify their actions in this case. I was admittedly very curious to see what that could possibly be, but I was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. At long last I gotta say that I pretty much fall in line with Johnny on this one. It comes off as a scare-tactics stunt, and thats decidedly unkosher when the people doing the scaring are cops and the people being scared are citizens, and children at that.
Got specific credible intel that a dope boy is holding weight and packing heat? Fine. Hit him...but lets not do it in a school where you could end up with a gunfight. And it sounds like they didn't even have that.
I'd go on, but Johnny said it first, and better.
Mike
Went in too hard here, not hard enough at Columbine, next time maybe y'all can go with and show us how it's done High Road style.....given all the various ConLaw, police operations, disaster mitigation and nuisance wildlife management experts here it should be a "valuable learning experience." For whom remains to be seen.
If you cannot find examples of cops going down and doing time for various and sundry criminal and or civil misdeeds you are'nt looking very hard.
If you cannot find examples of cops going down and doing time for various and sundry criminal and or civil misdeeds you are'nt looking very hard.
Michigander
Member
Two TOTALLY different situations.
In one case, two maniacs go into a school and start shooting people.
In this case, the principal thought a few kids were dealing drugs (IIRC, pot) in the hallways so he called in a raid.
The two do not even compare. Again, like the other thread, the aggressor has the responsiblity!
EricOKC
Member
No i didnt miss the point. You think people in non-LEO fields dont get investigated/questioned/reprimanded when they have done nothing wrong? Hell, some of us get blamed for other peoples mistakes all the damn time I dont wanna hear how hard you have it for internal issues. Welcome to the real world.
I was pointing out that when you make mistakes which directly affect the very citizens you are paid to serve, the comparitive slap on the wrist doesnt exactly go a long way towards fostering good public relations.
First off, your language is likely offending Art's Grandmother. Tone it down.
To be fair, he is not the only one cussing. Everyone knock it off.
Back in the debate:
Non-LEO fields of course have instances of people taking the blame for other people's screw ups, or cases where others decide that someone is at fault when in fact that person has not screwed up. My point, however, is that very few fields expose their workers to the level of scrutiny and tantrum throwing that LE does. Frankly? In many ways this is a good thing. I'm not complaining about it.
What I am complaining about is the completely cavalier, know-nothing attitude with which posters on this board say, off-hand, "oh, there's just no punishment for these *insert semi-witty non-clever overused slur here*" when the fact is that there is, in the overwhelmingly vast majority of cases where it can be demonstrated that a cop has committed an act of mal-, mis- or nonfeasance, and certainly in instances where he has committed a criminal one.
Name me another field where your average worker is as likely to be sued as LE? I'm sure there are one or two out there, but probably only just. And the beauty of it is that you don't even have to do anything wrong to be sued. All you have to do is arrest someone and have them not like it. When they get inside, they call a lawyer. Sure, he's criminal defense, but he also litigates (or knows someone who litigates), and if someone wants to sue, there is a lawyer who will take the case on contingency, regardless of whether there is anything substantive to it.
So, you get sued over nothing, semi-routinely (I've had two myself)...and while you win the frivolous ones (or your jurisdiction settles out of court without your consent), all of your assets are tied up while the case progresses. And, you want to tell me that there are no consequences for real violations of rights?
Am I startled that the DoJ isn't moving on this one? Frankly, I am. Makes me wonder if there is not a reason. But, as someone already pointed out, it merely means that the Feds don't have an interest. Wait until the lawsuit from the parents hits the courts. Its gonna be large.
Mike
To be fair, he is not the only one cussing. Everyone knock it off.
Back in the debate:
Non-LEO fields of course have instances of people taking the blame for other people's screw ups, or cases where others decide that someone is at fault when in fact that person has not screwed up. My point, however, is that very few fields expose their workers to the level of scrutiny and tantrum throwing that LE does. Frankly? In many ways this is a good thing. I'm not complaining about it.
What I am complaining about is the completely cavalier, know-nothing attitude with which posters on this board say, off-hand, "oh, there's just no punishment for these *insert semi-witty non-clever overused slur here*" when the fact is that there is, in the overwhelmingly vast majority of cases where it can be demonstrated that a cop has committed an act of mal-, mis- or nonfeasance, and certainly in instances where he has committed a criminal one.
Name me another field where your average worker is as likely to be sued as LE? I'm sure there are one or two out there, but probably only just. And the beauty of it is that you don't even have to do anything wrong to be sued. All you have to do is arrest someone and have them not like it. When they get inside, they call a lawyer. Sure, he's criminal defense, but he also litigates (or knows someone who litigates), and if someone wants to sue, there is a lawyer who will take the case on contingency, regardless of whether there is anything substantive to it.
So, you get sued over nothing, semi-routinely (I've had two myself)...and while you win the frivolous ones (or your jurisdiction settles out of court without your consent), all of your assets are tied up while the case progresses. And, you want to tell me that there are no consequences for real violations of rights?
Am I startled that the DoJ isn't moving on this one? Frankly, I am. Makes me wonder if there is not a reason. But, as someone already pointed out, it merely means that the Feds don't have an interest. Wait until the lawsuit from the parents hits the courts. Its gonna be large.
Mike
Johnny Guest and Coronach,
Thank you. Sometimes some things need to be said, and sometimes only certain people can say them.
From what I've seen, the cops screwed up here. Contrary to what some posters have implied, this does not implicate other members of the profession, but it does mean that the ones involved made some serious mistakes. That a few folks would choose this particular event to defend boggles my mind.
Maybe there were good reasons for the raid being carried out the way it was, but they haven't come out if they exist, and praising the actions of these particular cops without that supporting evidence is simply praising dangerous gun handling, unnecessary intimidation of a hallway full of children and extremely bad PR just for starters.
Thank you. Sometimes some things need to be said, and sometimes only certain people can say them.
From what I've seen, the cops screwed up here. Contrary to what some posters have implied, this does not implicate other members of the profession, but it does mean that the ones involved made some serious mistakes. That a few folks would choose this particular event to defend boggles my mind.
Maybe there were good reasons for the raid being carried out the way it was, but they haven't come out if they exist, and praising the actions of these particular cops without that supporting evidence is simply praising dangerous gun handling, unnecessary intimidation of a hallway full of children and extremely bad PR just for starters.
Well. I knew I wasn't ready to fire that last post off because it wasn't finished, but I got interupted. And look what I get. 
Folks, believe it or not, cops like to see appropriate justice visited upon bad cops, as well. Without naming names again, I can tell you that there is a pretty well-known case in my own area where a cop allegedly drew his gun in a stupid off-duty neighborhood dispute, and was arrested on the spot, and was charged with Aggravated Assault W/Deadly Weapon. Most officers in our area feel that if just half of what is alleged actually happened, he should get jail time. As it was, the man lost his job as quickly as can possibly happen under due process, and won't be a cop again. We'll see how the trial goes.
I can't begin to express myself any better than Johnny Guest did, so I'll let his statements stand.
EricOKC, just so you know, one of the allegations of an illegal search? Was made against me. And after her abusive boyfriend cut off her supply and kicked her out of the house, she wrote a written retraction that it was a lie, because her boyfriend didn't like me. (She had invited me in to look around the house.) Thank God she actually came to her senses enough to actually retract what she had said before, or the letter might have stood in the file. Think that doesn't matter? Trust me. It does.
Toot the cops' horn is not my idea of a good time. Hey, we get paid, (I'll take up how little with my city council!) and I'm NOT asking for hero worship or the like. Frankly, the whole concept of expecting to be considered a hero because of a job is just silly to me, and a little creepy. Don't want it, and really wonder about those who do. But on the other hand, don't make sweeping statements in which you press us all into your same mould of what you expect us to be, good or bad.
Look around this thread. You've got a few cops that have posted. How many have said that the story referenced at the beginning of this thread is their idea of the Way It Should Be? Not many. Proves two things.
--One: Some cops take your view on some things.
--Two: We don't all walk in lockstep with each other.
Folks, believe it or not, cops like to see appropriate justice visited upon bad cops, as well. Without naming names again, I can tell you that there is a pretty well-known case in my own area where a cop allegedly drew his gun in a stupid off-duty neighborhood dispute, and was arrested on the spot, and was charged with Aggravated Assault W/Deadly Weapon. Most officers in our area feel that if just half of what is alleged actually happened, he should get jail time. As it was, the man lost his job as quickly as can possibly happen under due process, and won't be a cop again. We'll see how the trial goes.
I can't begin to express myself any better than Johnny Guest did, so I'll let his statements stand.
EricOKC, just so you know, one of the allegations of an illegal search? Was made against me. And after her abusive boyfriend cut off her supply and kicked her out of the house, she wrote a written retraction that it was a lie, because her boyfriend didn't like me. (She had invited me in to look around the house.) Thank God she actually came to her senses enough to actually retract what she had said before, or the letter might have stood in the file. Think that doesn't matter? Trust me. It does.
Nope. Not at all. I'm not trying to pawn off that tired old "you just don't know what it's like, man!" chestnut on you. (Really.) What I AM saying is that this officer got a disciplinary action and days off and a serious setback in his career for actions that weren't even malicious in nature, and for actions that a non-officer wouldn't need to take (in this case, arresting a sloppy-drunk DWI who wanted to resist arrest). When the guy resisted arrest, the officer didn't take offense or try to "teach him a lesson"-- he just tried to secure the man in the best way he could on the way to jail. It so happens that his method was not approved by policy. The officer broke NO laws. No civil rights court would have convicted him of ANY wrongdoing. But it wasn't policy, and he got a formal reprimand and days off. All that, without even a complaint! I'm not trying to here argue against the disciplinary action taken, I'm just saying that this is an example of a rather high level of accountability that most cops do have to answer to.
Toot the cops' horn is not my idea of a good time. Hey, we get paid, (I'll take up how little with my city council!) and I'm NOT asking for hero worship or the like. Frankly, the whole concept of expecting to be considered a hero because of a job is just silly to me, and a little creepy. Don't want it, and really wonder about those who do. But on the other hand, don't make sweeping statements in which you press us all into your same mould of what you expect us to be, good or bad.
Look around this thread. You've got a few cops that have posted. How many have said that the story referenced at the beginning of this thread is their idea of the Way It Should Be? Not many. Proves two things.
--One: Some cops take your view on some things.
--Two: We don't all walk in lockstep with each other.
First off-Johnny Guest, thanks for keepin the streets a little safer for all these years, and let me know when you decide to retire. We'll spill a few beers or iced tea or somethin......
As to comparing the actions of the Goose Creek Goostapo to all law enforcement is like comparing the US Army to those few at the Iraqi prison.
The people in law enforcement are the same as in any profession-you have the good ones, the average, and those who should not be in the business. Never been an LEO, but as a former career soldier, I can imagine there are some similarities-low pay, the food ain't the greatest, and the places you're sent to is not because everyone is bein peaceful and having a good time!
Don't let the actions of a few morons ruin your view of a real police officer.
As to comparing the actions of the Goose Creek Goostapo to all law enforcement is like comparing the US Army to those few at the Iraqi prison.
The people in law enforcement are the same as in any profession-you have the good ones, the average, and those who should not be in the business. Never been an LEO, but as a former career soldier, I can imagine there are some similarities-low pay, the food ain't the greatest, and the places you're sent to is not because everyone is bein peaceful and having a good time!
Don't let the actions of a few morons ruin your view of a real police officer.
Deavis
Member
Can I get a ruling from the judges?
<judges look to Johnny Guest>
Oh good lord Bob, they are giving him straight 10s! Holy Toledo! This is amazing! The civilian Judges at THR are giving a LEO a perfect 10, and oh dear, a thumbs up too. A lwell written response that wasn't based on bumper sticker logic!
Imagine, adjusting your tactics to fit the situation. Trying to treat a suspect with a sense of civility while maintaining control of the the situation. Being cautious wiithout being overbearing. It is possible for those that aren't too lazy to try.
<judges look to Johnny Guest>
Oh good lord Bob, they are giving him straight 10s! Holy Toledo! This is amazing! The civilian Judges at THR are giving a LEO a perfect 10, and oh dear, a thumbs up too. A lwell written response that wasn't based on bumper sticker logic!
Imagine, adjusting your tactics to fit the situation. Trying to treat a suspect with a sense of civility while maintaining control of the the situation. Being cautious wiithout being overbearing. It is possible for those that aren't too lazy to try.
Leatherneck
Member
<arriving late to the discussion>
I stand slowly in respect for the perfect response from Johnny, and some pretty sage comments from others along the same lines. Not you FedDC.
As already observed, some things just need to be said by the right people.
TC
TFL Survivor
I stand slowly in respect for the perfect response from Johnny, and some pretty sage comments from others along the same lines. Not you FedDC.
As already observed, some things just need to be said by the right people.
TC
TFL Survivor
confed sailor
Member
i was there! i wasnt threatened, only people threatened were the people who had a reason to be scared.
pot smokin', momma's boys and whiny lil rich kids. stratford high school is full of the most worthless people in berkeley county.
god bless George McCracken, ex-principal, for he was mugged by "the reverand" Jesse Jacka$$.
from a south carolinian
pot smokin', momma's boys and whiny lil rich kids. stratford high school is full of the most worthless people in berkeley county.
god bless George McCracken, ex-principal, for he was mugged by "the reverand" Jesse Jacka$$.
from a south carolinian
Pilgrim
Member
The sad thing about policy is that it can be stretched and altered to suit the situation and the personal likes or dislikes of the administrator towards the officer being investigated.
Pilgrim
FNHP35
Member
Not really going to add much here, just a kudo's to Johnny Guest. He said everything that needed to be said.
Andrew
Andrew
Oh, I believe it. Right or wrong, their face reflects off your badge and the fewer smudges on the badge, the more respect the good cops get.
What is scary is when some cops (thank <diety> not all of them, as shown by this thread) seem to publically defend any actions of any officer at any time. In a PM from Liliysdad, he explained that this attitude was largely because police tend to dislike when non-LEOs question police actions because outsiders appear to have an anti-cop bias. On the other hand, he points out that good cops do want to deal with bad cops - just within their own organizations. That's all well and good, but it can be hard for me to trust that bad officers (or good officers who screw up) are dealt with as strictly as non-officers are when we break the law, when in public the ranks seem to close at the first hint of questioning the actions of an officer.
I can't speak for everyone, but it is a tremendous relief to me when this is demonstrated to not be universally the case.
To be fair, in any profession, the violation of the codes of conduct or the administrative policies of the hiring organization can and often will result in punishment. If I treat my clients in a manner which violates our corporate policies, I will have to face the music just like the officer who handles a suspect in violation of his. Even if we both have good reasons for doing what we did.
13A
Member
The most frightening thing to me is we did not see events like these before the "war on drugs". Just how dangerous is it for people to smoke pot? More dangerous than the ploice activities to prevent it?
Do countries where pot smoking is legal have serious problems related to it? I don't think so.
Is surrendering our freedoms worth winning this war? Nope!
Can we win this war? Nope! People can get pot in our prisons.
Do countries where pot smoking is legal have serious problems related to it? I don't think so.
Is surrendering our freedoms worth winning this war? Nope!
Can we win this war? Nope! People can get pot in our prisons.
carpettbaggerr
Member
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2003
- Messages
- 1,676
Johnny Guest and Coronach -- Bravo.
FedDC -- Can you look at those videos and tell me you didn't see false arrest, false imprisonment, and assault with a deadly weapon? Those officers had no probable cause or even reasonable suspicion to arrest over 100 people.
FedDC -- Can you look at those videos and tell me you didn't see false arrest, false imprisonment, and assault with a deadly weapon? Those officers had no probable cause or even reasonable suspicion to arrest over 100 people.
Moparmike
Member
Anyone else notice that FedDC hasnt chimed in with his special blend of insanity in 1.5 pages?
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