NineseveN
member
Father Knows Best said:
Well, you're finding out what many of us already know, toys, movies and video games or music do not cause kids to become violent or say dumb things.
Got a call from my son's school principal today
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Well, you're finding out what many of us already know, toys, movies and video games or music do not cause kids to become violent or say dumb things.
NineseveN
member
1911JMB said:
Not quite correct. The information he based some of his findings on is pretty much BS and the study Grossman references by Mr. S.L.A. Marshall is pretty much a sham as well, or at least a bunch of independent researchers could not verify any of the claims made by either.
Children with violent disorders and conditions that do bring about violence will gravitate towards violent TV, games and Music, but the tendency is already there, the problem has just not yet materialized in the actions of the child. And many kids will be attracted to that sort of media because of the excitement - children do not generally gravitate towards media that portrays "rape", even though that is an act of violence because there is no excitement in it; except maybe for someone with a predetermined sexual condition or defect as well. However, Quake, while being a video game where one kills demons and monsters, the child is put into the shoes of the hero that saves the world...which I would argue is where the real appeal lies with most children that do not already have some latent tendency towards violence.
Grand Theft auto is something of an anomaly I admit, but it does have other aspects that appeal to children (or even many adults) aside from the violence (like fast cars, speeding, lawlessness and absolute freedom as well as the peer pressure of being into the "in thing").
Rock45
Member
Sounds like it may be time for a little "tour" of the county lockup facility! A quick look 
at what happens to those that choose the wrong path is more than enough for most kids...the rest, well they just got their first look at their retirement home! 
Good Luck!
Bryan
at what happens to those that choose the wrong path is more than enough for most kids...the rest, well they just got their first look at their retirement home! Good Luck!
Bryan
I think the years of 'imposed' rural life my father mandated when I was growing up did a great deal of good. It wasn't common in the area I grew up, or even necessary, just something he figured was a good idea.
I think a sensitivity to inflicting hurt and pain comes from actually seeing it, or feeling it. If I hadn't seen the animal life cycle, I don't know how I would have ever 'understood' death and violence before becoming an adult.
You might also consider that even though you've 'filtered' violent inputs to your son, he may be a bit violent himself. It may or may not be overtly manifested, at least in your presence. Perhaps some positive physically aggressive outlets would be helpful.
I think a sensitivity to inflicting hurt and pain comes from actually seeing it, or feeling it. If I hadn't seen the animal life cycle, I don't know how I would have ever 'understood' death and violence before becoming an adult.
You might also consider that even though you've 'filtered' violent inputs to your son, he may be a bit violent himself. It may or may not be overtly manifested, at least in your presence. Perhaps some positive physically aggressive outlets would be helpful.
Standing Wolf
Member in memoriam
I'm sure the laddie will respect you more for the stand you've taken and thank you in about fifteen years for having introduced him to responsible shooting. Just takes awhile sometimes.
entropy
Member
My second grader said in school very loudly, (the only volume he has) " My Dad has lots of guns and can shoot all the cops!" 
Thank goodness his teacher did not go ballistic (pun intended), and is aware kids say some stupid stuff sometimes. I reassured her that since I was raised by a cop, and studied to be one (my Dad talked me out of it, plus my eyesight wasn't good enough for POST standards uncorrected) , that the local gendarmes were safe, and that yes, I do have a deer rifle or two. (OK so maybe three...)
He got a stern lecture about saying such things, and hasn't got to shoot my .22 since then. He also couldn't sit down for a while.
Thank goodness his teacher did not go ballistic (pun intended), and is aware kids say some stupid stuff sometimes. I reassured her that since I was raised by a cop, and studied to be one (my Dad talked me out of it, plus my eyesight wasn't good enough for POST standards uncorrected) , that the local gendarmes were safe, and that yes, I do have a deer rifle or two. (OK so maybe three...) He got a stern lecture about saying such things, and hasn't got to shoot my .22 since then. He also couldn't sit down for a while.
silverbird
Member
+1MrTuffPaws said:
KriegHund
Member
Father Knows Best said:
Maybe thats the problem...though at 6, i seriously doubt it, so dont take that comment too seriously.
This is indeed a very strange thing, expecially for a kindergartner to say. Kids say wierd stuff though.
+1 on the "Human nature" answers. True story:
Friend and his wife moved to remote British Columbia, and planned to homeschool the kids when they had some. Visited them when their first was five. He didn't HAVE any peers, classmates, or neighbors, and the household did not have a television.
I had played catch with him for 15 minutes or so, then said I needed to quit and go talk with his father. He scowled and said "If you don't keep playing I will shoot you with a very powerful fire gun."
I consider myself fairly knowledgeable about guns, but this lad was referring to something I'd never seen listed in Fjestaad's, so I played catch for a while more...
It's in the gene.
JR
Friend and his wife moved to remote British Columbia, and planned to homeschool the kids when they had some. Visited them when their first was five. He didn't HAVE any peers, classmates, or neighbors, and the household did not have a television.
I had played catch with him for 15 minutes or so, then said I needed to quit and go talk with his father. He scowled and said "If you don't keep playing I will shoot you with a very powerful fire gun."
I consider myself fairly knowledgeable about guns, but this lad was referring to something I'd never seen listed in Fjestaad's, so I played catch for a while more...
It's in the gene.
JR
trickyasafox
Member
i learned more on the bus ride to school and at recess then any class, presentation, game, or tv show could ever have hoped to teach me
NineseveN
member
John Ross said:
Hmmm, where can I get one?
azredhawk44
Member
It came from the basic desire to not be hit in the head with a rock, and to have justice if one is hit in the head with a deadly object.
Kids know this from the start without being taught.
That's why the BoR acknowledges rights given by God, and doesn't by itself grant us rights by means of government.
His conduct was only mildly out of line and the principal reacted very well. No real trouble, appropriate followup with the parents, verification that there never was any real danger. It was also rooted in the basic premise of self defense.
FWIW, I'm sure your son will turn out fine.
azredhawk44
Member
I actually would push for equal treatment to the other kid for assault. Actually, the other child's threat is more credible.
I can relate to this too. I have a very sweet natured, brilliant little boy. However, at age 3 there was a period when he would walk up to complete strangers and say, "I'm going to kill you."
We couldn't figure out where he was getting it from. The wife and I sure don't talk that way, and we're pretty careful about what television shows he's allowed to watch. Our best guess is that our boy picked it up from other little kids in the neighborhood. Once a week my wife gets together with other moms in the neighborhood so the moms can socialize while the little one's play together.
Fortunately he was so cute that people just chucked at his comment. Still, it worried me.
We couldn't figure out where he was getting it from. The wife and I sure don't talk that way, and we're pretty careful about what television shows he's allowed to watch. Our best guess is that our boy picked it up from other little kids in the neighborhood. Once a week my wife gets together with other moms in the neighborhood so the moms can socialize while the little one's play together.
Fortunately he was so cute that people just chucked at his comment. Still, it worried me.
KriegHund
Member
Shane333 said:However, at age 3 there was a period when he would walk up to complete strangers and say, "I'm going to kill you."
Rofl!
When i was in 4th grade i would walk home every day (not far, maybe 1/4 a mile)
These kids would walk behind me and chuck rocks at me. For some reason (still cant figure it out) i would just keep walking, being pelted occasionaly by decent sized rocks. I never really said anything to anyone (be it "Im going to kill you" or otherwise) so maybe its not such a bad thing your kid is willing to stand up for himself...though saying "Ill kill your family" isnt the best of ways.
Im still not sure exactly why i never turned around and threw rocks back or something. Ive wisened up...and toughened up...wouldnt put up with sh...crap like that for any more than about 1 microsecond.
Strange how people change. I wonder if its becuase when i was a even little-er than that i had a very bad temper, so over time i learned to just take whatever life throws at you (including rocks) without reacting. Nowadays im smart enough to know there are some things you should weather out...and some things you shouldnt.
I still have a very good temper, though ive got a lot of hate in me. That kinda stuff never really goes away- its all a matter of knowing when to let it out (like on when doing 100 thrust punches to a bag your arms are getting tired at 50....)
Now ive gone and physco analyzed myself.... Father Knows Best, do your kid a favor, dont let him turn into a wierdo like me
In all seriousness (ive said that word 3 times in 2 posts....) i wouldnt worry to much about the kid. Society is vile today...just as it was 100 years ago. Were just more open about it. It was probably best to reprimand him as you did though; taking away the toy guns. he needs to know how serious the situation is (4 times) and though its hard for young children to comprehend (they forget easily).
Byron Quick
Moderator In Memoriam
I agree with the human nature responses...it's called escalation.
I was educated in a school that could have been called 'fight club.'
The neighborhood kids had fist fights and rock fights. It got pretty serious at times within those parameters but it never graduated to our BB guns or the real firearms. Or even the pocket knives that each and every one of us carried.
To offer an opposing view, I think that the reason it did not was early exposure to shooting and hunting on all our parts. I knew what killing was at five. At least as far as animals went. I certainly knew I didn't want to go there in a schoolyard fight. There were firearms in my house within my reach. The ammunition was within my reach. I never played with them for I had personal experience that firearms were definitely not toys. Rather than delaying his introduction to shooting; you might want to expedite his education into shooting. And hunting. That way, he will have direct personal experience with the lethal potential of firearms and with the ramifications of his words. At present, he has no referents to what he said. And he has no basis for understanding what has his parents' dander up.
Now, once he has the personal experience to understand the implications of such a threat and repeats it...then you've got a problem.
I was educated in a school that could have been called 'fight club.'
The neighborhood kids had fist fights and rock fights. It got pretty serious at times within those parameters but it never graduated to our BB guns or the real firearms. Or even the pocket knives that each and every one of us carried.
To offer an opposing view, I think that the reason it did not was early exposure to shooting and hunting on all our parts. I knew what killing was at five. At least as far as animals went. I certainly knew I didn't want to go there in a schoolyard fight. There were firearms in my house within my reach. The ammunition was within my reach. I never played with them for I had personal experience that firearms were definitely not toys. Rather than delaying his introduction to shooting; you might want to expedite his education into shooting. And hunting. That way, he will have direct personal experience with the lethal potential of firearms and with the ramifications of his words. At present, he has no referents to what he said. And he has no basis for understanding what has his parents' dander up.
Now, once he has the personal experience to understand the implications of such a threat and repeats it...then you've got a problem.
you have GOT to be kidding....!
Bryan, this is a KINDERGARTEN STUDENT. Let's hold off on the "Scared Straight" tactics at least until he quits sleeping with stuffed animals, for Pete's sake.
Springmom
Rock45 said:Sounds like it may be time for a little "tour" of the county lockup facility! A quick look
Good Luck!
Bryan
Bryan, this is a KINDERGARTEN STUDENT. Let's hold off on the "Scared Straight" tactics at least until he quits sleeping with stuffed animals, for Pete's sake.
Springmom
gjwandkids
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FKBest, if it's any consolation to you, we had a similiar situation when our oldest was around the same age (he went to school for the first couple of grades before we discovered homeschooling) and we handled it about the same way you did. He is now 18 and ready to leave for basic (joined the Navy) and has quite a good reputation for safe firearms handling. He learned that lesson young and remembered it.
Lupinus
Member
Your son mentioned guns?!? And you keep them in your house even? Then you...you spanked him????? You evil man you don't deserve kids
[/sarcasm liberal impersonation off]
Just kidding.
Sometimes kids say things that even with the way you have raised them they shouldn't be. Often it can be chalked up to other kids or their young age simply not comprehending. Once kid threatens to throw a rock and yours threatens to come over his house and shoot him, and he simply doesn't understand the implications of that yet. All in all you did good. Explained it to the principle, and when he got home he was punished. Not much else to do and sounds like ti ended well.
[/sarcasm liberal impersonation off]
Just kidding.
Sometimes kids say things that even with the way you have raised them they shouldn't be. Often it can be chalked up to other kids or their young age simply not comprehending. Once kid threatens to throw a rock and yours threatens to come over his house and shoot him, and he simply doesn't understand the implications of that yet. All in all you did good. Explained it to the principle, and when he got home he was punished. Not much else to do and sounds like ti ended well.
ARperson
Member
My take on the whole thing
I don't buy the "human nature" justification, unless you add the caveat that the little tyke is mimicking grown up "human nature." Not all people react to violence with violence. Knew a few people in college who irritated the hell out of me with how nice and non-aggressive they were...genuinely. No act. My bet goes for the "sponge" theory.
To wit, I proffer exhibit A:
When I was 2, my mom and dad divorced. Shortly afterward, mom moved the two of us into a small home. But funds were so tight, no room for furniture (which is relevant only because I had a great big floor space on which to play). Came home from visitation with dad once, am playing on the floor with my Hot Wheels (imagine a pudgy 3 y/o with her red hair in pigtails crashing the cars together) and all of a sudden I pop off with, "C'mon you motherf---ers. Crash!" Yep. Outta my mouth. My momma never cussed; but dad did frequently. And frequently with the F-word. I never did get punished for that one, probably because I apologized profusely as soon as I said it (how did I know it was wrong!?!), but also because momma was doing all she could to keep from laughing hysterically.
Anywho, it certainly wasn't human nature to cuss or be violent. But it is human nature to do/say things you see other people do/say, particularly when other people are parents or peers.
I'm also glad that there are some people who still believe in spankings.
I don't buy the "human nature" justification, unless you add the caveat that the little tyke is mimicking grown up "human nature." Not all people react to violence with violence. Knew a few people in college who irritated the hell out of me with how nice and non-aggressive they were...genuinely. No act. My bet goes for the "sponge" theory.
To wit, I proffer exhibit A:
When I was 2, my mom and dad divorced. Shortly afterward, mom moved the two of us into a small home. But funds were so tight, no room for furniture (which is relevant only because I had a great big floor space on which to play). Came home from visitation with dad once, am playing on the floor with my Hot Wheels (imagine a pudgy 3 y/o with her red hair in pigtails crashing the cars together) and all of a sudden I pop off with, "C'mon you motherf---ers. Crash!" Yep. Outta my mouth. My momma never cussed; but dad did frequently. And frequently with the F-word. I never did get punished for that one, probably because I apologized profusely as soon as I said it (how did I know it was wrong!?!), but also because momma was doing all she could to keep from laughing hysterically.
Anywho, it certainly wasn't human nature to cuss or be violent. But it is human nature to do/say things you see other people do/say, particularly when other people are parents or peers.
I'm also glad that there are some people who still believe in spankings.
scout26
Member
Dear God, I remember being about that age and arguing with my next door neighbor about what our dad's were going to do to each other when they got home.
Me: "My dad will punch your dad, real hard".
Him: "Oh Yeah, well my dad will kick your dad."
Me: "Oh Yeah, well my dad will...."
etc. etc. etc. Until I think we were threatening each other with nuclear weapons.
Yep, Dads came home, broke out the lawn chairs and sat in the driveway drinking a beer or two, while shooting the breeze.
Andy and I probably rode off on our bikes or threw around a football or baseball, having forgotten all about our earlier arguement.
Me: "My dad will punch your dad, real hard".
Him: "Oh Yeah, well my dad will kick your dad."
Me: "Oh Yeah, well my dad will...."
etc. etc. etc. Until I think we were threatening each other with nuclear weapons.
Yep, Dads came home, broke out the lawn chairs and sat in the driveway drinking a beer or two, while shooting the breeze.
Andy and I probably rode off on our bikes or threw around a football or baseball, having forgotten all about our earlier arguement.
I don't understand the spanking part. Why not just explain to him what he did wrong? He's 5? I'm not opposed to spanking in general, but think it should be reserved for the times when words have no effect. Using violence, to explain that volence is wrong, just doesn't make sense to me. I'm sure he was just repeating what he heard the older boys on the playground say. My 9 year old girls are occasionally on the receiving end of such comments from boys their age. I generally shoot their families in retaliation...just kidding.
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
The other side of that coin:
http://www.theppsc.org/Grossman/Main-R.htm
Mr. Grossman has an interesting thesis (and I've read his book), but it's a LOT more subjective than Mr. Grossman makes it out to be, and a lot of the "facts" he draws his conclusions from turn out to be incorrect to start with.
No TV video violence at YOUR home--
PLT that THIS principal (as did I as a former principal) has common sense. Zero Tolerance in this case would NOT have held--mere words. For Zero Tolerance he would have had to BRING the gun, ammo and have genuine intent to seriously injure.
Of course, my present view of this subject as I instruct it in my Educational Leadership courses to teachers and principals sometimes falls on deaf ears. I temper their zealous attitude with the warning, be careful that your decisions regarding the children are ethical; you don't want to end up with ME sitting on the witness stand explaining to the courts how what you did in discipline to this child was illogical, irrational and just plain wrong, furthermore that I taught you better and too boot, it must therefore be malicious!
I also teach graduate courses in Ed. Psych. This little guy did nothing but either parrot his comrades or repeat what he heard on TV somewhere. Don't assume that because they are "in the other room" that they do not hear. Trust me, children are like world-class military intelligence. They see all, hear all, but truthfully know very little.
I tend to agree on the spank bit, but that is a family decision. Better he have his butt lit up like a Christmas tree and not sit until Easter than to have some backside of a horse principal potentially Zero Tolerate him. Give him love; talk with him, and above all--ROLE-MODEL for him. Show him. That's how kids learn best.
Doc2005
PLT that THIS principal (as did I as a former principal) has common sense. Zero Tolerance in this case would NOT have held--mere words. For Zero Tolerance he would have had to BRING the gun, ammo and have genuine intent to seriously injure.
Of course, my present view of this subject as I instruct it in my Educational Leadership courses to teachers and principals sometimes falls on deaf ears. I temper their zealous attitude with the warning, be careful that your decisions regarding the children are ethical; you don't want to end up with ME sitting on the witness stand explaining to the courts how what you did in discipline to this child was illogical, irrational and just plain wrong, furthermore that I taught you better and too boot, it must therefore be malicious!
I also teach graduate courses in Ed. Psych. This little guy did nothing but either parrot his comrades or repeat what he heard on TV somewhere. Don't assume that because they are "in the other room" that they do not hear. Trust me, children are like world-class military intelligence. They see all, hear all, but truthfully know very little.
I tend to agree on the spank bit, but that is a family decision. Better he have his butt lit up like a Christmas tree and not sit until Easter than to have some backside of a horse principal potentially Zero Tolerate him. Give him love; talk with him, and above all--ROLE-MODEL for him. Show him. That's how kids learn best.
Doc2005
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